HertogJan Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Originally posted by Prime I'd be happy with just a compass. Then you could just get your sense of direction and work from there. I'd rather have no compass... You are a Jedi, use the force No seriously, I don't need some sort of navigation device, unless Raven starts making really big ****ing worlds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Originally posted by HertogJan I'd rather have no compass... You are a Jedi, use the force No seriously, I don't need some sort of navigation device, unless Raven starts making really big ****ing worlds! I agree ... I didn't like the compass in MoHAA most of the time - it was already linear enough. Too much direction and you start following the compass and forgettign to use your mind. The only thing - there are places you should know, like the temple (like the HQ in Deus Ex), and you should be made to explore it early on if you'll need to know it later. There are places you should have no clue about, and perhaps there will be some Force indicator for that. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agen Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Originally posted by acdcfanbill buf for MP an overlay map would be great, anyone remimber the overlay map in JK + Seeing? you could see everyone and items, their direction, it was useful! It was damn brilliant... That was the only reason people used the map (apart from sp) If you aren't going to be able to combine force seeing with it then there's no point in a map for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solbe M'ko Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 I, for one, didn't find any navigation problems in JO (unlike in other FPS style games like SoF) and I doubt that there will be any really large open areas/mazes to get lost in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agen Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Well Raven are aiming for more jk1-like maps(or so they say) which means BIG maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademaster_109 Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 A good thing about not having a map system is that it adds suspense like when u'd walk down a dark hallway in jo and a shadow trooper would appear out of no wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solbe M'ko Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Yes, but what about when you've cleared the level, found the keys, and have to look for that one door that you can't seem to find. Remember Descent? In that game a map was a necessesity. I think that a compass would be useful, but to give away enemy positions would suck. I think that your character should be able to feel "bad vibes" coming from the next room, but shouldn't be able to tell how many enemies are witing for him. In fact, with a system like that, the dark jedi would have and added stealth ability; they could "shut down" like the Rar sisters (I think) at the beginning of "Star by Star". Then when you entered a room you think is empty, a shadowtrooper could scare the hell out of you. Sorta like in halflife, but not as goofy (did anyone else notice that the monsters hung around in the stupidest spots?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Originally posted by Blademaster_109 A good thing about not having a map system is that it adds suspense like when u'd walk down a dark hallway in jo and a shadow trooper would appear out of no wear. Why would a map system spoil that kind of suspense? In SP, it should only show the places you've already been, not where you are going, and not show any enemies or items on the level. I think it would prove useful for those who are inclined to get lost. For example, in JO's swamp level, a lot of people couldn't find the way out. I never got lost once in JO, so it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other if a map is included for SP. I'm mostly concerned about being able to see the position of team-mates in MP on an overhead map with all locations revealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 A Map system should be added to JA (It probably won't, but hear me out). Why? Dark Forces had it. Jedi Knight had it. Mysteries of the Sith had it. Jedi Outcast suddenly doesn't have it. There's no logical reason to remove it. In FPS history, Wolfenstein3d didn't have a map (the game was pretty simple, and they probably didn't have the memory to spare to create one). Then Doom and Doom2 came out, they had maps. Mapping meant you had to spend less time "lost" in the mazelike levels. It didn't gain any specific advantage in competative games, but in Cooperative games it helped immensley for keeping track of your teammates. The only reason FPS games stopped having maps, is because Quake came out in 1996 (?) and didn't have one. Instead it just told you the number of kills you had (vs. number of monsters), secrets and time used up (IIRC). Thus, mindlessly, all FPS games from that point on (with LEC games being notable exceptions, like Outlaws and JK/MotS)copied them (or used a quake based engine that lacked the map feature). Now we have Raven software (bless them), who have a great respect for Id's games and experience with their engines... going right along with the "no maps" bandwagon. Why?? Why did Id software choose to remove the mapping feature from Quake1? I'm assuming they did it to save memory. They also may have wished to increase the difficulty (and consequently the frustration) factor by forcing you to memorize the map as you go (or perhaps to conceal programming tricks like a level "hub" system). I would argue that having a map system allows you the freedom to make the levels as large, complex, and confusing as you wish. It is also nice because if you save your game and come back several days or weeks later (and have forgotten the level) you don't have to play through the entire thing running around in circles to re-learn it. In multiplayer of course, map use is great initially to help you learn a map (secret areas need not be shown of course) and to better keep track of buddies. JK used Force Seeing combined with the map to allow you to track enemy movements and even spot mine traps (on level 4). It was used intelligently. Elite Force and Jedi Knight 2 are games set in high tech universes. You are usually on missions of espionage or tactical events where in the "real" universes of these games, the use of mapping technology (tricorder, satellite uplink, data pad, etc) would make sense, and be useful. A map doesn't have to show the entire game world. It can show only the parts you've visited (the old "ball of string in the maze" idea), or it could show you the entire map, but have to be "obtained" from a hacked terminal or something later in a level. Surely the Q3 engine isn't so limited that it can't put a simple 2d overlay of the level in a corner of the screen. JK even had a "Data pad" with a 3d rotatable display accessible in a menu outside the game, in addition to the DF1 style overlay map. Thus, I argue, that if a simple map feature could be added to JA, it SHOULD. There is no rational reason not to, except to (annoyingly) inflate the difficulty. Ditto on what was said about finding the "one stupid door" after the rest of the level had been completed. ; p PS: The action in JK/MotS was usually faster than JK2, and a map worked great there. Its far more useful than just having glowing blobs through nearby walls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echuu Shen-Jon Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 I think...I don't know! I haven't played any other games than JO! Wouldn't it be too easy? If it should be there, I think, that you should download it from some kind of terminal or...something. It would be good, but it would also be bad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Why a map?? I NEVER felt the need for one in JO OR JK, and in JA we'll also have force foresight, which lets you see enemies behind walls etc. So we don't need a map; period And using a map in a game has nothing to do with the engine. It's not that everyone just copies Quake; it's that games don't need a map. And they shouldn't need one either. Maps are only usefull in games with very big, open areas, JA isn't one of those games, so no map... JK wasn't such a game either, JO either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan A Map system should be added to JA (It probably won't, but hear me out). Why? Dark Forces had it. Jedi Knight had it. Mysteries of the Sith had it. Jedi Outcast suddenly doesn't have it. There's no logical reason to remove it. have you taken the time to consider that the engine does not support progressive maps? notice those games were on a completely different engine than what JO is on, the quake 3 engine. none of the quake engines support map system such as that /edit wups lol i just saw that you said that. but then if you said that then why are you complaining that they didn't include the feature when its not supported??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echuu Shen-Jon Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 I've just played the demo of MoTS (I now know, why they make a mod of DF to JO. It was made in 1995 :eek: ) I don't think I would use it, if it was integrated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToppDog Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 I agree with StormHammer & Kurgan, maps are a cool idea. You could get maps as part of mission briefings when the intel is available; & if not, then you could have maps that are built progressively as you explore. You could even have a feature where there is somehow a slight difference in colors or layout between the two, so that you can tell where you've actually been as you progress. This could also be very interesting if you are given a map as part of a mission briefing & you get there to find that everything is different. Nice twists! I found that if the game supplies a progressive map, I go out of my way to explore everything, whereas without maps I'm usually just trying to complete the mission. If they ever enable a mission planning feature for SP or MP, maps would be a necessity anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormtrooper X Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 JO wasn't scary. DF and JK were scarier, and felt more real. I remember in Mysteries of the Sith on the first level you had to walk through those fans, that was pretty scary and hard. Remember in DF on the first level you weren't sure where to go, but you had to move on because the stormtroopers would find you and kill you. Ooooh, I miss that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 have you taken the time to consider that the engine does not support progressive maps? notice those games were on a completely different engine than what JO is on, the quake 3 engine. none of the quake engines support map system such as that /edit wups lol i just saw that you said that. but then if you said that then why are you complaining that they didn't include the feature when its not supported??? I said it because they had access to the engine's code. With that kind of control you can do amazing things. For example Half Life... light years ahead of anything in Quake 2! I'm not expecting miracles, but surely a simple overlay is not too much to add into the game, even like others have suggested, in that it might be a complete map (as a guideline) or something. They had the code, they could have (theoretically) added the feature. Why didn't they? Lack of time? They wanted the game to be artificially more difficult? Laziness? Or is it somehow impossible to do in the engine? Somehow I doubt it is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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