Faith Healing?

[SkinWalker]

I thought of making this a poll, but I couldn't think of a set of questions that wouldn't be all-inclusive...

 

I recently read an interesting passage in a book that discussed Faith Healing and I was wonder what experiences and opinions others have had or have about the subject.

 

Do you think it is real?

 

Can a faith healer cure someone with a disease or injury?

 

Is it as much in their heads as sugar pill placebos? If so, then how do faith healers cure afflictions such as blindness or gall stones?

 

I remember seeing a televised church program when I was much younger and the preacher was inviting people in the audience to come up and be cured of various illnesses and injuries... people approached in wheelchairs, crutches, the dark glasses of the blind, etc. and all walked away "healed."

 

I was quite young at the time, but even then I remember having mixed thoughts of skeptism and wonder.

[ShadowTemplar]

It is a proven theory that psycosomatic effects can ease pain and stress, and, in extreme cases, help the immune system combat disease. But as for:

 

I remember seeing a televised church program when I was much younger and the preacher was inviting people in the audience to come up and be cured of various illnesses and injuries... people approached in wheelchairs, crutches, the dark glasses of the blind, etc. and all walked away "healed."

 

Plainly put, if they were really able to cure people, then they would be earning fat money on it somewhere in the private health care system.

[Jah Warrior]

Originally posted by SkinWalker

I remember seeing a televised church program when I was much younger and the preacher was inviting people in the audience to come up and be cured of various illnesses and injuries... people approached in wheelchairs, crutches, the dark glasses of the blind, etc. and all walked away "healed."

 

 

LOL you sure that wasnt a TV drama!?!?

 

seriously though, i totally dig this mind over matter stuff, and my mate does claim to be able to heal (none of the religious cr@p though)

 

i think the key player in faith healing etc is the mind, the mind is way more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

 

eg Take one Faith Healer and a skeptic with a headache and the skeptic will not get healed. On the other hand you take someone who is willing to believe in faith healing and they will be far more likely to benefit from faith healing.

 

99% of illness is in the mind, we are born with an immune system and as such maybe we need to learn how to use it, if you catch my drift. I aint sure of the minds capacity to heal a broken leg but thats an injury not an illness.

 

Strange thing all this mind stuff, I'll have to think about it some more.

[ShockV1.89]

I've seen documentarys on that televangelist healing crap, it's bull. There was this one fella, Benny Hinn, who scams so many people it's sick.

 

In the documentary, they followed up on many of these people who were "healed." Turns out many of them injured themselves even further during their "healing walk." There was one fella with back problems who couldnt stand up straight. Benny Hinn whacked him on the head, he stood srtaight and was cherring and jumping around... a few months later, he was in a wheel chair from hurting his back during his "miraculous" recovery.

 

I am not a faithful one, but I respect those who are. But when I see people who take a generally good message and twist it to their own financial gain... it makes me mad.

[Thrackan Solo]

Yes I do beleive in faith healing.

A elder at my church was diagnosed with cancer one year ago. He was told that it was Stage 4 and he would be lucky to make it past Christmas. He became terribly week, he was bed-ridden for weeks. Almost are whole church prayed for him. Then three weeks ago ( he miracoulusly had not died yet) went to the doctor for a check-up. The doctor did the test and saw there were no cancer left in his back. He was not on Kemo Therapy at the time , the doctor said he had never seen anything like this before. I think it was his faith in God that helped him and the prayers of everyone. Now he is almost regained all his strength.

[XWING5]

I don't really believe in what I have seen the Televangelists do on their TV revivals, but I believe that sometimes miracles can happen -- that faith and prayer and all of that can occur. But that is my belief. I think so many so-called "healers" just abuse the system and prey on people's absolute faith. The difference between the gentleman with cancer and the one with back problem, is that one was done by prayers and God and the other was just touched by a guy who was probably scamming everybody. There was a movie on that, with Steve martin wasn't there? Leap of Faith? It's all just a show. Which is very disappointing.

[SkinWalker]

I think that there certainly are some Psychosomatic afflictions that can be improved by postive mental orientation. This might include 'faith healing' but also prayer, voo doo, Navajo Sand Painting, Reiki, or just sheer will-power.

 

As far as what might be considered psychosomatic, I would think this would be limited to joint pains, stuttering, headaches, ulcers, and other ailments, generally accepted as being influenced by stress.

 

Insert postive mental attitudes, reduce/eliminate significant stress. It is a documented fact that those who die of old age frequently do so after a major event or milestone: birthdays, christmas, the birth of a grandchild, etc.

 

Still, I personally doubt that real, quantifiable, physical afflictions such as broken bones, deformaties, or even cancer can be cured by a "faith healer." If this could happen, it would seem necessary that an abundance of medical literature would exist to support it. As it is, there is only placebo literature, which covers the psychosomatic effects and expectations for use as control measures in experimentation.

 

I'm sorry Thrackan, but I would have to see the literature surrounding your friend's case. I'd be interested (genuinely so) to know how it is you came by the details of the account. The possibillities include naturally occuring immuno-response that coincided with the "faith healing;" an actual "faith healing;" a sincere belief in a supernatural occurance without an actual event; or an out-right deception.

 

I tend to believe in a combination of the latter two. I suspect that in most cases of alleged 'faith healings,' there is a complete deception that is concocted and re-told. After that, the human trait of "willingness to believe" perpetuated, even modified or adapted the story.

 

I personally am of the mind that Faith Healing is poppycock, but that there is a real benefit from a positive mental attitude to the immune system. Our moods affect our body chemistries. Our body chemistries control protein and enzyme production. The immune system relies heavily on a healthy chemistry lab for a body to be effective.

[Tyrion]

Of course,Thracken, what about all of those that didnt make it through?

[Thrackan Solo]

Originally posted by Tyrion

Of course,Thracken, what about all of those that didnt make it through?

 

 

You guys will probably slam me for saying this. But its Gods will.

[XWING5]

Hard to attack faith Thrackan. That's why it is what it is.

[SkinWalker]

I've done a bit of searching... and I find no evidence of anyone cured by a "faith healer" who had demonstrated a clear, non-psychosomatic affliction before the "healing" to a medical authority and did not still possess the affliction after the "healing."

 

I did see referance to several people who believed that they were "healed" who did not continue proper medical attention and had died.

 

It would seem, therefore, that "faith healers" are nothing more than killers. They lead the believers to think that they can "cure," but in the end, nothing had changed.

 

I think if you want to protect your child from Polio, you can pray or you can get her innoculated. If you break an arm, you can visit a faith healer for a blessing, or you can go to the ER and have it set and casted. If you have cancer, you can travel to a 'psychic surgeon' in the Phillippines, or begin chemotherapy.

 

Extrodinary claims require extrodinary evidence... not mere wishes to be so.

 

[XWING5]

True, or you can try to cover all bases and do both.

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by XWING5

True, or you can try to cover all bases and do both.

 

But then, when medicine has done it's work, you'll be under the misguided assumption that the supernatural was at work. I'm simply amazed at people who carry around the appendage of a rodent, knock on wood, avoid things associated with 13, pick lucky numbers/colors/shirts/etc., all in the name of "luck."

 

The randomness of chance has been given some supernatural embodiment. People the world over "pray" for the things that they want... if they get what they want, it was becuase a god or gods shined favorably upon them. If they don't, then their prayer was insufficient, their offering not enough, or their faith not strong enough. Skill, talent, planning, and determination aren't even considered in some cases.

 

Scientific method, problem solving steps, and wise decision-making skills will prevail more often than any other method. These methods are measurable and observable. There is NO, absolutely NO evidence that supports that a supernatural method of healing or achieving goals will work better than sheer chance. If I find the most faithful believer in any religion and have them pray over a coin toss and the chance of heads is still going to be 1 in 2.

[XWING5]

Ok. I wrote a reply, a great reply - worthy of a Caldecott (ummm... maybe) and then it was erased, so I will have to reply tomorrow before I kill my computer beyond all faith healing.

[FunClown]

I have known, and know people who have prayed for people, who have been healed.

 

I think it is something you have to see to believe in the literal sense. Like UFO's and things.

 

However, in regards to televangilists, I don't really trust those guys. Most of it are just telemarketing adds and asking for donations. I always wonder how they can sound so desperate for donations and wear these flashy suits and have all these things. There is nothing even smart casual in my wardrobe and I don't go around asking for donations. You've got to love the good ol' excuse or if you were healed it was God, if you weren't its because you don't have enough faith. That sounds illogical to me. Since, how much faith would you have if you were healed. That would be faith, because it would be believing in things unseen. The definition given in the new Testament.

 

This does form a good part in why I believe in a God.

[Crowy]

ive never seen faith healing... but the theory i see in it is... it will heal you if you have faith in god... so in a way it could be considered a plaebo... but jsut like certain placebos people may have beleif in it so for them it works....

 

well i see things that way anyway

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by FunClown

I have known, and know people who have prayed for people, who have been healed.

 

You should contact Louis Rose, a British psychiatrist who has been searching for over 50 years to find an actual case. In 1971, he wrote Faith Healing (Penguin Books) and concluded, "I have been unsuccessful. After nearly twenty years of work I have yet to find one 'miracle cure'; and without that (or, alternatively, massive statistics which others must provide) I cannot be convinced of the efficacy of what is commonly termed faith healing."

 

In Healing: A Doctor in Search of a Miracle, Minnesota surgeon William Nolen, M.D. did follow up interviews and examinations of 25 people that were "miraculously healed" by a faith healer. A woman with cancer of the spine was instructed to discard her back brace and run across the stage, which she did. Subsequently, her backbone collapsed the next day and she died four months later. Of all the organic diseases that Dr. Nolan reported in his book, not one person could be helped.

 

The key thing is that they all thought they were healed.

 

I would say that you probably got duped, FunClown. Seeing isn't necessarily believing. Thousands of people each year claim to have seen UFOs, yet there is no evidence to suggest that these sightings are anything that is not already of this world. Many claim to be abducted by aliens and truly believe it to be so (some even write best selling books), but there is still absolutely no evidence that what they say is true.

 

Mere belief is not enough.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Crowy

ive never seen faith healing... but the theory i see in it is... it will heal you if you have faith in god... so in a way it could be considered a plaebo... but jsut like certain placebos people may have beleif in it so for them it works....

 

Good point.

 

But then again, believing strongly in something will heal you likewise. By using this "placebo effect", I could believe in the monsters from Quake to "cure" me.

 

And it'd work. Just as believing in God will work.

[obi]

I don't think that people that use "faith healing" heal people, but they just pass on what God gave them. As many are aware, I believe in God, and his blessings. At my church not too long ago, there was a woman with a muscle deformation in her leg. She couldn't walk straight, if she walked on her own at all. Finally, she told the entire congregation that she "had had enough." She went up front to be prayed for, and ten minutes later, she was dancing.

 

Yes, Dancing. I lie to you not, the woman was cutting a rug. When that was over, she walked straight all the way out of the church, and to her car, and drove home. She has been fine ever since.

 

 

I'm sorry if this story drives someone here up the wall, but it is a true story, and I'm sticking to the "God did it" theory. =)

[ShockV1.89]

and I'm sticking to the "God did it" theory. =)

Why?

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by obi-wan13

She went up front to be prayed for, and ten minutes later, she was dancing. ... She has been fine ever since.

 

The way I see it, there are only these possibilities... I reject the last two, however.

 

[*]She was a shill, in which case you've probably never seen her at your church before, nor will you again. If this is the case, ask around and you'll find it hard to verify who she was. You might get a name, but no other information.

 

[*]She thought she was healed, much like the lady with spinal cancer. In which case, you might see her return to church, but with a "relapse." If this is the case, then her identity probably won't be a secret, but it's possible she won't return to church so as not to have a "negative affect on those who are struggling with their faith."

 

[*]You didn't actually witness the event, but are re-telling it as it was told to you (by someone you trusted). I reject this possibility, since you stated that you weren't lying. That doesn't seem consistent with your character, but a possibility, none the less.

 

[*]She was actually healed. If this is the case, you will see her in church again, without affliction, as this will be the type of thing a religious leader would want to market in order to bolster faith. I reject this possibility, however, as there has never been a documented case of faith healing of any organic disease or affliction.

[/list=1]

[obi]

Perhaps I should not have said "not too long ago," as this event happened a few years back, and the same woman has hardly missed a church service. Not just on Sunday, but during the week as well. She is a devoted member, and I knew her before she was "healed." Perhaps she was faking her leg injury, I don't know, but I seriously doubt it, as I have had conversation with her family and friends who helped her before she was "healed."

 

To Shock: My answer to "why" is this: I have always believed that there is a God. I always will. Many many many many other accounts of "first hand" witnessing to the power of God can come from my mouth right now. However, I will spare you the long post. =)

[ShockV1.89]

Well, your answer leaves a bit to be desired. "I believe she was healed by God because I believe in God." Doesnt really make sense, but whatever...

 

A lot of people make more of their injuries than really should be. It's perfectly conceivable that this lady never walked on this leg before because it hurt too badly at one point or she seriously couldnt, and she just fell into a routine of walking on it poorly because that was what made it feel allright. Also, pain can be a lot in peoples minds. If they think they feel a certain pain, they usually will.

 

It's also conceivable that, seized in religious fervor, she overrode her now insitnctive fear of walking normally on that leg to instead put her weight on it. Aside from perhaps some stiffness and achiness (sp?), it worked fine... which was probably the case all along.

 

Of course, I wasnt there. This is just conjecture.

 

As for people witnessing displays of "power" from God in church... this is a prime example of people coming to certain conclusions before they considering anything else.

[FunClown]

SkinWalker, I think you left out [maybe on pupose] a fifth possibility. We must keep an open mind.

 

************

 

Seriously though, people do get healed.

 

Saying there is no documentary evidence sounds good but isn't neccessarily true.

 

I think the discussion should focus more on how those people got healed rather than if. There are many stories about people supposedly being healed but not really, however, there are stories where people are healed for real, still to this day. It is the latter in my view that is up to many peoples opinions.

 

However, by saying this, it does not imply that I do not like medical science and so forth. There are new drugs coming out all the time that help people. It is a great thing IMO.

 

I highly doubt that any real agreement will be made, but it is still good to read other peoples opinions.

[Homuncul]

Sure. Why god should be always involved when ther're a lot better explanations with all hows and whys not circled into itself like with god.

 

I think this woman had a great spirit she didn't know to possess. And in the moment of excitement pain lessens if not disappears completely.

 

Regarding power of god, I saw some exorcism acts in a small province church and it didn't look fake. After the ritual I came to the priest and asked him about the ritual and he pointed me those who were actually faking and then explained implicitly how they do those things they did and why they do them. They all live in small villages, have no education at all and perhaps the only book they have access to and pay interest to is bible (or some cooking book). Most of them didn't even read the bible, only heard what others say. They all had some psychological injuries in the past like death of a loving one or something like this. With no other option and due to their psychological state they attribute this to satan unquestionably. And later they put it that way that satan doesn't wanna stop and persues them and seduces them while in reality the only thing they long for through these actions is attention from people. This psychological pervertry over themselves is expressed in these don't-look-fake actions. Actually the majority of congregation was considered fakers by the priest.

 

My opinion is that all were fakers and priest man was just trying to justify his faith to himself. Those whom he didn't considered simulants I think were better at acting. And another thing has to be considered that when people are in such a deep religious trance they don't play/act in a common way (they actually live it) but that still can not be attributed to them being possesions of prince of darkness.