Why is it OK to criticize religion (i.e. Christianity)?

[ShadowTemplar]

What about the Old Testament? Until 1947 the Old Testament was considered to be no more reliable than other books of antiquity. There was no scholarly basis to believe that the documents were essentially the same as those which were originally written - until the spring of 1947, when a young shepherd boy named Mohammed was out looking for a lost goat just on the west bank of the Dead Sea about eight miles south of Jericho. He came to a crevice in the rock. Not wanting to take the effort to crawl down in it to see if his goat was there, he took a large stone and threw it into the crevice. He heard the sound of shattering pottery. He climbed down into the crevice and discovered what is considered to be the most significant and remarkable find of antiquity. Down there were a number of huge clay pots which had been sealed perfectly. They had been untouched. In those pots were thousands - 40,000 fragments of literature from antiquity. One of them, the most complete, was a manuscript of the book of Isaiah. It was on a leather scroll that was 24 feet long and 10 inches high. The materials were sold to a Jewish scholar from the Hebrew University there in Jerusalem. With great interest it was shared with the literary world. The previously oldest manuscript of the book of Isaiah which existed prior to these scrolls, which have now been called the Dead Sea Scrolls, was from 900 A.D. Paleographers have dated the Dead Sea Scrolls at between 100 B.C. and 200 B.C. The scroll for Isaiah was dated at 125 B.C.

 

Aah, I have been waiting for a chance to pounce upon the subject of the Dead Sea Scrolls:

 

1) Most of the scrolls were never recovered, since the explorers who were sent to excavate them used local labour, who in many cases simply snatched the scrolls and sold them to collectors on the black market.

 

2) What was recovered was handed down to a commission for investigation. Unfortunately, this commission had close ties to a biblical research institution that was under the complete control of the Catholic Church. The one person in that group, Allegro, who didn't have such close ties said to a friend who was planning on converting to Christianity, that when he published what the commission had found, "there will be no Christianity to worship". Next thing that happened, the Inquisition had siezed the scrolls, and Allegro was subjected to a witchhunt of historic proportions.

 

3) In 1991, more than forty years from the finding of the scrolls, only 10% had escaped the Inquisition's archives. How much these criminals have destroyed is anybody's guess.

 

Source: The Dead Sea Scroll Deciet

[lukeskywalker1]

That's bullsh*t.

 

Dude, have you read what i wrote?

 

Roman Catholic law says that if you say you have assurance of heaven, you are damned as a heretic!!!!

 

John 3:16 (these are christ's words... look em up if you doubt it)

 

God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son so that whoever believes in him may not be lost, but have eternal life.

 

look, it says HAVE eternal life. Christ said it. Roman Catholics say you cant say that, or you are damned as a heretic.

 

Why is it so hard to understand???

 

Christ said you have assurence, they say you can have assurence or you are damned as a heretic. But Christ said you do!!! Therefore they are saying that the founder of christianity is a heratic!!!!!!!

 

Your point again?

 

Christianity is only a Jewish sect that survived because of Paul, and Judaism can be traced back to idol-worshipping as well.

 

Yeah, its in the bible too

 

I cant see you have read this thread.. cause i wrote why they werent christians on page 3 i think.

 

 

 

I seem to remember you recently talking about how you didn't even need to be in a denomination to call yourself Christian. As long as you believed in the Bible and accepted Jesus as your savior- is that not right?

 

Once again you havnt read what i wrote... ill need to edit this after words, so i can cut and paste the entire story just so you can read it...

 

 

 

And how do you difine spiritual person?

 

You know, relationship with christ

 

 

why do i even post.. you guys dont really understand. (i can say this because you say 'I do understand, BTW what is this ...???' )

You cant possible understand when you keep asking questions

 

Skywalker, accept and respect that you can be wrong. Yet again, even the Bible was written by people like you.

 

lol, never said i couldnt be wrong.. i just try not to post something unless im sure its true

 

 

so don't come here and badmouth Catholocism.

 

Dude, it started when someone said christian's committed crimes, catholics comitted the crimes. I proved they arent christians. Granted, from the world's view, they are. If you really research there history you see that they worship old egyptain/babylonian gods.

 

Ill quote my entire story, ill even do some searches and see what i can find.

 

So homosexuality is an "error"? That's a flame, I'm afraid.

 

I cant prove its wrong, but ill say this, even if you believe in evolution, its wrong. If the evolution process ment for man to be with man, or woman to be with woman, then it would be that way. They could reproduce with each other. Its not that way. I doubt it will ever be that way.

[lukeskywalker1]

did a search.

 

Roman Catholic Doctrines and Practices Contradicted by the Bible

1. THE MASS

(a) A sacrifice for sins, 'vs.'-Heb. 10:11-17, 7:27; Rom. 6:9-10; Heb. 9:11-12, 22-28; I Pet. 3:18.

(b) Eating and drinking the literal body and blood of Christ. 'vs.' Mt. 24:23; Ex. 20:13; Acts 15:20; Is. 44:14-20; Acts 17:24-25, 19:26; Jn. 10:9, 15:5, 6:63; Jer. 15:16.

 

2. CELIBACY

Priests and nuns vow never to marry 'vs.' I Tim.. 3:2-6, 3:12, 4:1-3; Mt. 8:14; I Cor.9:5; Eph. 5:31-32; Acts 21:8-9.

 

3. MARY, QUEEN OF HEAVEN

Jer. 7:18, 44:17, 25.

 

 

MARY, MEDIATRIX - I Tim. 3:5; Mt.11:28; Jn. 14:13-14; I Ki. 8:39; II Chr. 6:30; Ecc. 9:6.

MARY, SINLESS - Lk. 1:46-47, 2:22-24 (a 'sin sacrifice'); Rom. 3:23, 3:10-19.

 

MARY, EVER VIRGIN - Mt. 1:25, 13:55-56, 12:46; Mk. 6:3; Jn. 2:12; Acts: 1:14; Mk. 3:31.

 

MARY, WORSHIP - Rom. 1:25; Is. 42:8; Lk. 2:48-49; Mk. 3:31-33; Jn. 2:2-4, 7:10.

 

MARY, CO-REDEMPTRIX - Acts 4:12; Jn. 14:6; Rom. 5:17; I Jn. 2:1-2; Heb. 7:25; Jn. 10:1, 9; Ps.146:5, 71:5; Jer. 17:7; Joel. 3:16; I Tim. 1:1; Col. 1:27; I Pet. 1:21; Heb. 7:25.

 

MARY, MOTHER OF GOD -- Mt. 12:46-50; Mk. 8: 19-21; Acts 1:14; Jn. 2:3-4.

 

4. PETER, THE ROCK

'vs.' God, Christ the Rock .. Dt. 32:3, 4, 15, 18, 31; I Sam. 2:2; II Sam. 22:47; Ps. 18:31, 28:1, 62:2, 94:22; Mt. 16:23; I Cor. 10:4; I Pet. 2:6-8; I Cor. 3:11; Acts 4:12., Eph. 2:20; Mt. 21:42.

 

5. NO MEAT ON FRIDAY, LENT, FAST DAYS, ETC.

'vs.' I Tim. 4:1-3; Gal. 4:9-11; Col. 2:20-22.

 

6. AURICULAR CONFESSION

'vs.' Ps. 32:5; Rev. 14:12; Lk. 18:14; Is. 55:7; Acts 8:22; Ezra 10:11; I Jn. 1:9; Ps. 32:5; I Tim. 2:5; I Jn. 2:1-2.

 

7. PURGATORY

'vs.' I Jn. 1:7; Heb. 1:1-3; Jn. 14:1-6; Rom. 8:38; II Tim.1:12; II Cor.5:8; Lk.23:43; Rev. 5.:91

 

8. ROSARY

''vs. 'Mt. 6:7.

 

9. SALVATION BY MERIT, WORKS, SACRAMENTS, WATER BAPTISM

'vs.' Eph. 2:8-9; Rom.10:9-13; Jn. 3:16, 3:36, 5:24; Acts 16:31; II Jn. 5:10-13; Gal. 2:16; Rom. 3:27, 4:2, 4:6, 11:6; Gal. 2:16, 3:2, 3:5, 3:10; Titus 3:4-7; Gal. 3:24-25; I Pet. 1:18-23.

 

10. ADDRESSING A PRIEST AS "FATHER"

'vs'.'Mt. 23:9.

 

11. MIRACULOUS MEDALS, SCAPULARS, CRUCIFIXES, IMAGES, BLEEDING HEARTS, ETC.

vs.' Ex. 20:4-5; Dt. 4:16; Is. 42:8, 44:9; Lev. 26:1; Dt. 4:23.

 

12. POPE AS "HEAD OF THE CHURCH"

'vs.' Eph.5:23; Col.1:18; Gal.2:11; II Cor 11:5, 12:11, 11:28; Lk. 22:24; Mt 20:25-27; Acts l5:13-19; II Thess.2:3, 2:4, 2:9-12; I Jn. 2:18: Rev. 13:18.

 

13. TRADITION

'vs.' Mt. 15:3; Mk. 7:7-8; Col, 3:8.

 

14. PRAYERS FOR THE DEAD

'vs.' II Cor. 6:2; Jn. 3:18, 3:36; Prov. 29:1; Jer. 7:16.

 

15. PRIESTS

'vs.' Heb. 8:4; Eph. 4:11; Heb. 4:14-15, 7:26, 8:1; Mt. 24:4-5, 23-24; 23:9-23.

 

16. NEGLECT OF INDIVIDUAL SCRIPTURES STUDY AND INTERPRETATION AND OBEDIENCE THERETO, AS THE SOLE RULE OF FAITH

'vs.' Isa. 8:20; Dt. 17:19; Josh. 1:8; Isa. 34:16; Jn. 5:39; Acts 17:11; II Tim. 2:15; Rom. 15:4; Ps. 119:11, 103; II Tim. 3:15-16; Col. 3:16; Ps. 119:105, 130, 72, 97.140; Jer. 15:16; Eph. 6:17; Heb. 4:12; Ps. 119:9 Jn. 15:3, 17:17, 20:31; Dt. 11:19; II Chr. 17:9; Mt. 22:29; Isa. 30:9; Hos. 4:6; Amos 2:4; Mk. 7:9; Rev. 22:18-19.

 

hmmmm... i think that speaks for itself.

 

Its right here if you dont believe me

 

hmm... very interesting after doing a search i found the little book which explained most of the catholic things to me someone copied all the pages on the web i guess. Of course, this book didnt totally change my opionion. Back in the thread with Hotrod, i found out about catholics. I thought they were christians, but considering what they said, i changed my mind.

 

anyways, i didnt quote what i said, cause most of it is here

 

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp

 

I disagree with the revelation part though. I dont see how it talks about catholics. Anyways, thats where i got a lot of my info on catholics from.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

Dude, have you read what i wrote?

 

Yes, but why do you ignore a lot of what we have to say?

 

Roman Catholic law says that if you say you have assurance of heaven, you are damned as a heretic!!!!

 

Ok, now there's something we can work with.

 

See, only God knows for sure whether you are going to heaven or not. You might believe and hope you are, but it's up to God to judge you, and to see if you are worthy, no? Certainly not you.

 

It's like that point about you not being able to say to me that I'm going to hell. You just don't know. So, if you say that you are sure that you're going to heaven you are actually placing yourself above God - because you are obviously not qualified to know that.

 

Now, as to what Jesus said, what he was expressing was the Christian ideology. Yes, Catholics believe they are going to heaven if they live a good life(!) and trust in Jesus, but none of them would be so foolish as to make premature assumptions on something they have no knowledge of.

 

You understand now?

 

Once again you havnt read what i wrote... ill need to edit this after words, so i can cut and paste the entire story just so you can read it...

 

Instead of backing out of this, clarify your point.

 

You know, relationship with christ

 

That is not what being spiritual means. Look it up.

 

why do i even post.. you guys dont really understand. (i can say this because you say 'I do understand, BTW what is this ...???' )

You cant possible understand when you keep asking questions

 

Maybe, just maybe, we are asking rhetorical questions in order to make you clarify yourself a little. I understand perfectly well what you are trying to say about Catholics, but you show so little empathy that you are unable to apply this to your own religion.

 

Dude, it started when someone said christian's committed crimes, catholics comitted the crimes.

 

Yes, they have commited crimes and acted against the Bible's commands. Some of them have.

 

But again, so have Protestants. Is this going to be some pissing contest between Catholics and Protestants about who have done the most bad in the name Christ? Is this what you want? I don't think it is, because it's not going to prove a hoot.

 

I cant prove its wrong, but ill say this, even if you believe in evolution, its wrong. If the evolution process ment for man to be with man, or woman to be with woman, then it would be that way. They could reproduce with each other. Its not that way. I doubt it will ever be that way.

 

Many species practice homosexuality, and they're doing just fine.

 

Humans, of all species, should do it more often, as we're close to suffocating this planet in our waste. Homosexuality = less children - but we're gonna do fine anyway.

[El Sitherino]

homosexuality is a way of keeping the population of a species from growing so massive that it would end up wiping out the entire planet but with these homophobic laws being passed i see mankinds fate looming on the horizon.

[lukeskywalker1]

Alright, i see what you are saying now. Very good point C'Jais. But i do know this, somewhere in the new testament it says you do have assurance. Ill possibly look it up in the morning, if i remember, because im tired right now.

 

Yes, but why do you ignore a lot of what we have to say?

 

Dont have anything to say about it i dont ignore it, i read it all, most of the time more than once.

 

I must admit this though i was wrong in this statement:

 

Under Roman Catholic law, they have the right, to kill Christ, Paul, Peter, and everyone of the Apostles, and billions of people throughout history.

 

I posted that a while back. Assuming with out reading on my part (i got it mixed with something else, and a few days later looked it up, and found it was wrong)

 

 

Spiritual, had an experience tonight. Im not talking about ghosts here. I find the best way to teach, is through stories (examples) or personal experiences. So why dont i tell you one.... errr.. another one ? My mom and dad are divorcing, and shes got a BF. I wasnt too happy, weve argued and argued (they are both christians, as am i, my dad isnt ) anyways, i had some really bad thoughts about him. Not very christian like at all. Me and my mom got into an arguement wednesday night, i told her my thoughts, she told him. I got even more angry. So i just stayed in my room. I didnt talk her unless she talked to, and i didnt even bother to look at him. I skipped church last night, they went. I felt the holy spirit telling me to go, but i ignored him. Not the best decision in my life anyways, i stayed in my room all day today. I played some old video games, stuff like that, didnt do a thing except find that stuff for you guys. Anyways, i dont know why, but at the last second i decided to go to church tonight. (Church on friday? Actually its a special meeting thing this week only. Each night, monday to sunday) I dont even know why I did, i really didnt want to. I go, and she (woman preacher) explains about her life. To cut a long story short, in the end she explained how God told her (she had been ignoring the will of the holy spirit for a long time) that if she didnt start doing his will then it was over for her. She explained how we had to give our lives up. She said you have to live for him 100%. She invited us up to the altar to pray, and seek Gods will, it was called santification i think. I thought, they do this a lot, ill just sit here and pray, like always. Then she said, if you dont come, and pray when you know you need to its only your pride standing in your way (i realised my mom had told me my pride was standing in my way the night before duringour argument, and i knew of several ways i wasnt following God) I thought about going up then, but I thought, theres like 500 people here, ill do it when i get home. Then she reminded me about a bible verse. That one, if your ashamed to show that you follow christ, He will be ashamed of you. I was like oh man, shes right. The thing that was stopping me from going up to pray was that i didnt want to in front of 500 + people. I decided, I had to, what i had to do. So I went up there, knelt down and prayed. There were like 20 people up there when i went. Next time i looked up, almost everyone was down there, just piling up behind people. Id stop, then God would remind me of another place i had fallen short, and sinned against him. I prayed more, and more. My mom was right next to me, and my sister next to her, praying. When i was done, I got up, looked at her boy friend, and continued walking. God had told me while i prayed to apoligize, i knew i was wrong. I just thought id do when i got home. Well, no big deal right? Well, then the amazing thing happend. He approached me and said, God told me to hug you. I was like whoa... and i apoligized for what i did wrong. Sign from God? Sounds like God was determined I did the right thing.

 

It was amazing. It made me realize, even though i am a christian, im still messing up. God has helped me out a lot, but i need to do more for him. I thought, just teaching his word would do it, but theres so much more to it than that. Wow. This why i believe in God, when stuff like this happens. Just amazing stuff. I didnt know any of this was ganna happen. I didnt even plan to go. I didnt plan to go to the altar and pray. God got me there for a reason, too many areas in my life where i doubted him, or was breaking his commands.

 

Whether you believe this or not, its all true. Ive just cut it way short, way, way, short.

[ShockV1.89]

Great story, and it's good to hear you made amends with your moms boyfriend. Sucks about the divorce.

 

But give yourself a little credit, man. Did it ever occur to you that maybe what you thought was god or the holy spirit telling you to do things was really your own thoughts, and it was actually you who came to the decision to go to church the second night and you who chose to go to your moms bf.

 

Think about it: You were angry at both of them, even though the right thing to do was pretty obvious. But you were angry, and that anger clouded your judgement. When you went to pray, you had to calm down to do so. You then focused your thoughts on the issue at hand and asked god for an answer. When you focused on the issue without the anger shadowing everything, the answer became clear and obvious.

 

You did a good thing there. A very good thing. Give yourself some credit and dont just lay it all on God because you happened to be in church at the time.

[lukeskywalker1]

Thanks, but when I wasnt going up to pray, she would say something, not to me, but it applied to me, ive never met this woman before. Then when I was ganna do it later, God had spoken to him to hug me, which in turn made me apoligize, just like God had wanted in the first place.

 

Alright so in the end i did the right thing, but still, if it wasnt for God i probably wouldnt have. So he deserves the credit.

[ShockV1.89]

You think you were the only one who was feeling those feelings about not going up to pray? If you were the only one, then everybody except you would have gone up right away. There's a reason it took so long for so many people to come up.

 

I'm just saying that God may very well have not had a hand in it. It might be difficult to grasp, but not every amazing thing that happens in the world is an act of God. Maybe, just maybe, it's an act of humanity.

 

I prefer to think the latter of the two.

[CloseTheBlastDo]

Just stumbled on this thread and wanted to add my two cents - although I don't want to stir things up, so I'm gonna be careful how I phrase things And I apologise in advance for the long post.

 

Skywalker - I repect the way you are standing up for your beliefs - and please don't be intimidated by people who bash you unnessesarily.

But also don't close your mind to other ideas, and I would hope you read through my post carefully, because I mainly would like to communite with you directly...

 

I have no intent to bash - but I will say this. I understand why people do - although I wish they would tone down and keep their arguments to reasonable debate - because going over the top doesn't help in any way to come to a conclusion on things.

 

Firstly, I am a total believer in the principles of scientific knowledge and coming to the truth through scientific reasoning.

There is one BIG difference between scientific reasoning and religious thinking:

 

When science is wrong, it is willing to admit it's wrong! In fact, it is required to admit it's wrong and alter it's hyphothosis accordingly. In this manner it continually refines it's idea on what is 'true' at any given time.

 

Most 'fundemental' religious thinking - however, is the total opposite. What has been decided to be 'true' in books written hundreads upon thousands of years ago - often with dubious authenticity issues - is true NO MATTER WHAT. If new evidence comes to light, the most important task for religion is to work out whether it backs your religious views, or not. If it backs it, then that's fine. But if it seems to countermine your idea of the truth in any way, then this new 'evidence' is simply a problem that somehow has to be explained away, discredited or even destroyed completely. The LAST thing religion does is actually take the evidence seriously!

 

Skywalker, a few posts back someone mentioned Galieo and you asked what the relavence was. I'll tell you what happened to him:

 

Up until the time of Galileo, the commonly excepted model of the universe was that the earth was at the centre of it and everything else orbited around it (They hadn't discovered anything outside our solar system at that point - so that meant all the planets and the sun!)

 

Now, Galileo (who was a devout believer as far as I'm aware) discovered that - in fact - the sun was at the centre of the solar system, and every else, including the earth, actually orbited around that.

 

Skywalker - I am going to mention how the catholic church tried to cover up this dicsovery. Now I know you are going to say that that was just the catholic church, and this does not count for real christians etc. And to a certain extent your right. But please bear with me - I will eventually get to explaining how this example has bearing on all of christian thinking...

 

Anyway - the catholic church had already officially stated that the model which put the earth at the centre of the universe was TRUE. (After all, it made sense. God made the universe, and Man and the world was his most loved and important creation - so it made sense it would be at the centre of the universe...)

 

If this new evidence was generally excepted, it would make the church wrong. And since the church spoke for God, it would make God wrong - which of course wasn't allowed!!

 

...so the solution? They locked Galileo up so that he could not spread his theories!

Pretty shocking eh?! That is an example of religion actively discouraging the discovery of TRUTH so that people's beliefs aren't comprimised.

 

So - that was the catholics - this has nothing to do with other 'christians' or other religions right?

Unfortunately not. History is FULL of this stuff.

 

And unfortunately Skywalker, you could very well be guilty of this yourself (to an extent) - quite blatently from things you have said in this thread. There are several I could pick, but probably one of the more obvious and most shocking examples would be that of homosexuality. This isn't the only thing that you've spoken about that I would take issue with, but I think it is probably one of the most relavent topics at this point in time, and one of the most serious also.

 

To quote you:

 

I cant prove its wrong, but ill say this, even if you believe in evolution, its wrong. If the evolution process meant for man to be with man, or woman to be with woman, then it would be that way. They could reproduce with each other. Its not that way. I doubt it will ever be that way.

 

I'm afraid that this comment shows you have not really made any effort to look at the avaliable evidence and make up your own mind. You are simply accepting the 'truth' you have been taught by your religion.

 

Let's skip over the fact that you find issue with the theroy of evolution - one of the most proven theories in science (there is quite literally mountains of proof on it's side and quite literally nothing of real note to stand in it's way) and get to the part about homosexuality being 'wrong'.

 

Firstly, as has been previously stated - homosexuality is naturally evident in all kinds of animal species. This has been recently verified, although the evidence has been around for a while but was often ignored or discounted because of the 'taboo' nature of the subject.

Of course - if ALL animals were 'gay', then there would be a reproduction problem!! But the tendancy to be homosexual is a minority. So therefore, most animals reproduce and evolution carries on without problem. The important point is that animals do not 'choose' to be gay - they are born that way. If you don't believe that, let's move on to point no.2:

 

It has been shown that a certain part of the brain (for all species - including humans) determines the sex we are attracted to. For animals that are homosexual, this part of their brain is identical in make-up to a brain of the OPPOSITE sex.

e.g. the 'sex-orientation' part of a male brain would actually be identical to the make-up of the same section of a hetrosexual female brain - and vice versa.

 

So - in short - from the evidence found so far - it would seem that homosexuality is not some kind of corrupted upbringing - or the devil tempting us to be a certain way. It is part of basic make-up. i.e. it's as natural to be homosexual as it is to be hetrosexual.

 

Now of course, new evidence could turn up tomorrow that could mean I have to shift my views. That's one of the things I have to accept as a scientific thinker. I have to realise that what I thought was 'true' today could turn out to be 'false' tomorrow! But one thing I can be sure of is that by doing so, I can be assured I am moving closer to the truth as each day passes...

 

Now - Skywalker - I would be interested to hear what you have to say about the evidence I have just given - if anything at all. Because this is important stuff. The world is at a turning point in regards to homosexuality. (Just to get my orientation clear, I am hetrosexual. But I believe STRONGLY that homosexuals should be given the same rights that we hetrosexuals enjoy - without quivication)

 

Do you want to be acting in a similar manner to the catholics who imprisoned Galileo?! I don't mean to the extreme of locking people up obviously! But in the sense of ignoring evidence that's plain to see and keeping a group of people stigmitised in the eyes of society simply because you can't let go of your beliefs?

 

Be aware that yourself and other 'christians' and people's of all faiths have to think long and hard about what you believe. Do you REALLY believe homosexuality is 'wrong', or are you just believeing what your told by your bible? If so - I would think LONG and HARD about that.

Because I believe saying that homosexuality is wrong IS bigoted - plain and simple. And that more and more people are getting clued up to this fact. I would urge you to think for yourself and not let words written thousands of years ago dictate your beliefs.

 

In this sense, this is why it is OK to 'bash' christianity as you put it. If it says that one particular group of people are morally corrupt if they engage in an activity which doesn't harm anybody else and is quite frankly no-one else's business, then christianty, or any other group who says this - does deserve to get bashed and should expect it to happen. I'm sorry Skywalker, but that is simply the way it is.

 

That is all. I hope I have not offended you. You sound like a totally reasonable guy, and I hope you do not think I am bashing you personally in any way. But I am concerned about your viewpoint concerning several issues raised in this thread.

 

I would welcome any replies and thoughts you and others have...

[SkinWalker]

Well said. I, for one, would like to welcome you to the Senate Chambers.... I hope that you will continue to read and post in this and other threads...

 

Actually, this thread might not be open much longer... Should arguments and points continue in a circular fashion, I think it might be best for all concerned if it were closed.

 

Still, I think it fair to leave it open a little longer.

 

Either way, I welcome more well-thought postings from you, as I'm sure others will too.

 

SKin

[Jubatus]

I considered making a new thread for this but opted to place it here under the thread most fitted.

 

First off, this is an appeal to some of the socalled Christians of this forum, mainly lukeskywalker1 with wildjedi coming in on 2nd place, to either start arguing rationally in this forum of serious debate or outright leave. You're disruptive to the discussions because you argue dogmatically, not rationally, and whenever your dogmata have been rationally questioned you turn a blind eye and march on down the road of vain dogmatic persuasion.

 

Example: In trying to prove the truth of the Bible you presented a long parade of facts about historical figures mentioned in the book, somehow assuming that proving these people were recorded correctly in this book is also proving everything else in it true. My head almost exploded with frustration over such an absurd assumption. When we question the validity of your Bible, we question not the accuracy regarding people and places in time, we question the acts of divinity, for which you have no proof whatsoever.

 

Next, should this appeal fail, I appeal to the rational parties of this forum to do as I; simply ignore them. You cannot overcome in any discussion with these types, for, as I pointed out, they argue dogmatically, and there is no overcoming that, unless God descends from Heaven and proclaims he doesn't exist (I trust you see the paradox).

 

All we create in arguing rationally against dogma is pointless spam, a spam that interferes with serious debate, therefor heed my words, I implore you all.

[Kurgan]

While I don't think that its anymore "okay" to bash Christianity than any other group, or that any group of (imperfect) people is above all criticism, I do think that there may be something to this.

 

Some things I think are behind the perception of Christian bashing being acceptable:

 

1) The Political Correctness movement run amok. While trying to appear sensitive to "diversity" some people feel that in order to promote the beliefs or attitudes of minorities, the best way is to try to tear down the majority (intentionally or without realizing it). That is why in the US you get people bashing whites, Christianity, European "culture" (if there is such a thing), the English language, etc.

 

It's seen as "okay" because the wrongs commited by the majority of oppressing the minority means they deserve whatever "payback" can be dished out.

 

I disagree with this attitude because I find it illogical to blame people today of crimes that were committed by their ancestors, or to blame entire groups for the actions of individuals. It makes just as much sense as those who wish to condemn all Jews for killing Jesus or for slaughtering the Canaanites as it does for people to bash all Christians for the Crusades or the Salem Witch trials.

 

2) This goes along with the last part of the first one... Crimes of the Past deserve Present Punishment. It's not enough for Christians to apologize for the part their religion took in various crimes and persecutions, modern day people have to pay as well.

 

3) Past bad experiences with Christianity. A lot of people get annoyed by people knocking on their doors trying to evangelize to them. They get pissed off by Televangelists begging for money and resorting to theatrics to get attention. They are sore because of getting yelled at our their hands slapped by Nuns in private school when they were little. A few are mad because they were abused by clergy (note: despite the media frenzy about priestly sexual abuse, less than 1% of priests have abused anyone, yet you'd think by listening to the reports that nobody was safe to go to church anymore) or told they were "going to hell" which caused them a lot of guilty feelings.

 

Of course, just as I've had people bash me for being an American (even before they know who I am and what I believe in), people are similarly bashed for the groups they belong to, that is, stereotyped. This is not fair or just. Just because one person in my group treated you badly does not mean I did, or will, or that all people in the group are that way. In fact, the person doing the wrong may be acting in OPPOSITION to the group rather than under its blessing.

 

4) Misunderstanding. This is perhaps the biggest one. You'd be surprised how many arguments I see on the 'net (especially) from people who have a beef with Christianity (or some branch of Christianity such as Catholicism) based on misunderstanding. Through ignorance, willful or not, they attack strawmen of the people and their beliefs, rather than evaluating each person or the actual beliefs. A notorious example of this is in those little comics you'll often find at bus stops or laundromats in the US.. chick comics. They take the most simplistic ways to attack denominations they disagree with and use heavily debunked urban myths and stereotypes to get their point across that everybody is wrong and going to hell but them.

 

A lot of this is due unfortunately to how people are raised and their understanding of their own beliefs. There are people raised in every faith imaginable, and even those raised in atheist households who convert later in life. This is not to say that their upbringing was faulty, but that they changed their mind later. Some do convert mainly because they did not have a real connection with what they were taught growing up. In addition, many are not taught the reasons why their parents or family believe or don't believe, but instead are fed the above problematic solutions. They don't learn the history, and so rather than making a thoughtful decision have something forced on them, and then reject it as soon as they can, since they had no real foundation in the first place.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are people who have genuine grievences with Christianity, or who have thoughtfully evaluated the belief systems and found that they do not agree with them.

 

I have no problem with these people. No one can be forced to agree with me and likewise they can't force me to accept their ideas. I think discussion is something that is most fascinating. Some people can handle it better than others, some not at all. But I find that a lot of mistrust and hatred comes from the above, rather than from a legitimate source. This is true of many things, unfortunately, and not just between Christians and other Christians or non-Christians and Christians.

 

 

PS: Some people say that Christian bashing is a "myth" a persecution complex that Christians have. While in a sense, there is not the level of persecution in the United States that existed in say Ancient Rome or in some parts of the world today (such as majority fundamentalist Islamic nations), there is still a sense of animosity between rival groups, and the kind of public bashing we have seen on the 'net. Why should they care? If we compare it to say "hate speech" against racial groups, one can see how it can hurt a person's feelings to see that kind of venom spewed out about something they hold dear or is part of their cultural heritage.

 

On the other hand, I see other groups promoting their own "persecution complexes" which seem to have just as much validity. I see Atheists and Wiccans counting their victims among the various purges, massacres and slaughters of history. I see Jews complaining about how they are treated in the media or slights by politicians or etc etc. Blacks and other racial minorities complain of racism. It goes on and on. Suffice to say that many people are unhappy with how they are being treated or percieved they are being treated.

 

While it is important to be realistic, it is also important not to ignore these problems, since they deal with how we human beings relate to each other.

 

PS: Being covicted of "heresy" is not a death sentence. Rather, it leads to excommunication (if the person refuses to recant their views that are in conflict with the Church). Excommunication means you are considered "not a part of the Church anymore" and you are not allowed to recieve sacraments. You can come back if you recant of course. In the middle ages, sadly, Secular and Church authority was often combined, so that heresy was also seen as treason, thus it could lead to imprisonment, torture, or execution. Consider also that non-Christians were often treated like second class citizens in theocratic states that were majority Christian in those times. Protestants of course weren't much better in that even those who sought religious freedom from Catholic countries went on to persecute other less powerful sects in areas they controlled or the Catholics that they happened to meet. Religious wars in our modern times continue to be something all people of faith should be ashamed of (note: I do not believe that most armed conflicts are religious based. some definately have religious elements to them though and some are religious based).

 

Being a heretic doesn't necessarily mean you're going to hell either, though in ancient times theologians tended to think in those kinds of black and white terms. Modern Catholic belief is that people who honestly believe their (wrong as seen by the Church) beliefs are not considered fully responsible for turning away and thus God may have mercy on them in the end.

[Kurgan]

Oh and one more thing:

 

Its not that we are attacking DIRECTLY Chatholics all the time. It might seem that way to you because this is the strongest religion in the States, especially in the Southern States.

 

That's something of a laugh, considering the part of the south called the "Bible Belt" is almost overwhelmingly (some flavor of) Baptist.

 

Protestants are the majority Christian group in the US. Of course not all of them believe the same thing, as there are tens of thousands of denominations of Protestantism. Catholics are the largest SINGLE GROUP of Christians in America, but they are far from the majority of all Christians. Catholicism is bigger/faster growing in Latin America and Africa. Similarly people are often surprised to here that Islam is growing faster in the world than Christianity (Islam is the second biggest world religion, and Atheism/non-religious/Agnostic is very near to that), and the most Muslims are in Pakistan and Indonesia, not the middle east (most people think of Arabs, while most Muslims are non-Arab).

 

It would probably be more accurate to say that the majority of Americans are "nominally Christian" (due to various polls on beliefs and practice among professed Christians).

 

The Catholic Church of today does not advocate crusades or wars (the current Pope recently denounced the war in Iraq for example). The Church teaches that evolution and the big bang are viable scientific theories not incompatible with the faith. The American Council of Catholic Bishops has repeatedly denounced the Death Penalty in the states. In this way, the RCC stands out from a lot of other Christian groups, though it still disagrees with them on issues like homosexuality and female clergy, etc. Obviously Catholics are not perfect, but I think some people are lumping all Christians together as if they all believe, think, and act the same way.

[ShadowTemplar]

First on the list: A warm welcome to CloseTheBlastDo(ors).

 

Second on the daily order: Skywalker á la carte:

 

I cant prove its wrong, but ill say this, even if you believe in evolution, its wrong. If the evolution process ment for man to be with man, or woman to be with woman, then it would be that way. They could reproduce with each other. Its not that way. I doubt it will ever be that way.

 

I seem to remember having smacked that down somewhere around here... You are speaking as if Evolution was Larmarkian, where in reality it's Darwinian. And by the way, Evolution is not believed in.

 

She explained how we had to give our lives up. She said you have to live for him 100%

 

You frighten me. Seriously. I could have taken that straight out of a textbook about Hitler-Jugend. Straight out, and I'm not sh/tting you.

 

Thanks, but when I wasnt going up to pray, she would say something, not to me, but it applied to me, ive never met this woman before.

 

Another fine example of how skilled an orator she was... That technique is well known, and has been for centures - at least. It has nothing whatsoever to do with divine inspiration.

 

Skywalker, a few posts back someone mentioned Galieo

 

Hehe. One of my personal favorites when it comes to showing why dogmatic thinking is fundamentally harmful to your sound judgement.

 

While I don't think that its anymore "okay" to bash Christianity than any other group

 

You are making the fundamental mistake of assuming that 'Christianity' denotes a group of people. It does not. Christianity is a religion, or an ideology or mindset, if you will. Much like Marxism, you can bash the ideology without bashing the person professing it. Take Marxism as an example. It is perfectly OK to bash Marxism. After all, it does contain some quite large and obvious logical holes and short-circiuts. Oh, and it caused upwards one hundred million deaths worldwide (that's twenty times as many as Nazism). Does this mean that I think that every Marxist is an idiot? Certainly not. The same goes with Christianity and Christians (you could, litterally, substitute the names in the example given above).

 

While in a sense, there is not the level of persecution in the United States that existed in say Ancient Rome

 

[nitpicking]That Christianity was persecuted in Ancient Rome is an unfounded myth. Ancient Rome had religious freedom, and was, spiritually as well as culturally, a mix of a lot of different people, none of whom were persecuted for their beliefs ('cept slaves who thought that slavery was unfair, ect.). The ruling elite, however, was a uniform mass, with the same general cultural and religious background (the original 'Romans'). This is not to say that Rome was a model society, but compared to both what was around at the same time, and most that came after it, it was very open minded. The same, coincidentially, goes for the Arabian world in the Middle Ages. Endnote: This age of religious freedom ended abruptly about 400 A.D., because of the ascention of Christianity. What other religions were present, were persecuted with extreme prejudice, had their temples torn down and churches built on top of the ruins and/or had their temples converted to churches (an act that can best be described as sacrilege).[/nitpicking]

 

Islam is the second biggest world religion, and Atheism/non-religious/Agnostic is very near to that

 

[morenitpicking]Actually No Religious Preference is the correct term for the 'Atheist' cathegory that you mention. The former term covers, aside from Atheists also people who are 'Closet Christians/Muslims/Hindus/Jews/whatever'. These, in fact, make up the majority of the group that you cite. At least in the US, that is, and probably in the rest of the world as well.[/morenitpicking]

 

Apart from your misconception about the relationship between the terms 'Christians' and 'Christianity', I agree with much of what you said, Kurgan, although my post may not indicate that (no need to repeat what one agrees with, unless it's very spectacular).

[SkinWalker]

Where did lukeskywalker1 go? I kinda figured it would end that way... A tribute to a tenacious attempt

[Kain]

In light of recent events, I've found that bashing Christianity is a ban-worthy act. They Christian-biased people, having a common bond, have apparently decided that us (for lack of better term) heathens should be warned at every turn. If lil Dubya got his way, the USA would turn into Iraq, but Christian based, in which case I'd feel sorry for those of us who don't stand under 'God'. We'd all be tortured into conversion or simply shot.

[Jubatus]

Originally posted by SkinWalker

Where did lukeskywalker1 go? I kinda figured it would end that way... A tribute to a tenacious attempt

 

Mayhaps he got the message; Christianity, despite its size and vast influence, cannot justify itself in a rational debate, for which this forum calls.

 

Or maybe he's on vacation without access to the interweb. Or maybe he took me up on my request for him to leave. Maybe he's dead and gone to Heaven, thus proving us all wrong....Maybe not.

 

In any event I stand by my request of not getting yourselves dragged into an attempt of rationally disproving Chrisitianity to a Christian - it simply is a waste of time and argumentative skills. That's not to say we can't discuss religion rationally, just that we shouldn't discuss against dogmatic religion...at least not in any other way than simply pointing it out to be dogmatic and hope this will speak for itself.

 

By the way, good Fanta movie, SkinWalker - why didn't you finish it?

[El Sitherino]

no luke has access to the web. i've talk to him on occasion in the #echonet IRC channel.

[lukeskywalker1]

Uhhh..... ***waits for movie to load***

 

i stayed offline a week cause of the blaster virus, while i was offline i was working on my JKII movie and i just kept working then found out about some really sweet terrain stuff and learned that then checked back here

 

no luke has access to the web. i've talk to him on occasion in the #echonet IRC channel.

 

Yeah, it kept distrating me from the stuff i was supposed to be mapping... Thats why latley ill join say hi, then 10 minutes later just disapear

 

rofl very funny skinwalker

 

Look, i just use the web to tell God's word... thats the main reason i come to these threads.

 

Anyways, to just say this thread doesnt really matter:

 

 

Luke 21: 12-14

"But before all these things happen, people will arrest you and treat you cruelly. They will judge you in their synagogues and put you in jail and force you to stand before kings and governors because you follow me. But this will give you an opportunity to tell about me.

 

Always have been bashed, always will be.

[Eldritch]

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

Luke 21: 12-14

"But before all these things happen, people will arrest you and treat you cruelly. They will judge you in their synagogues and put you in jail and force you to stand before kings and governors because you follow me. But this will give you an opportunity to tell about me.

 

Always have been bashed, always will be.

The ability to rationalize away any and all logical arguments has always been, and will always be, one of the key unwritten tenants of Christianity.

 

"But before you realize the truth, your faith will be questioned and your logic argued. They will debate you in the Senate and ask you to account for your reasoning despite the lack of any hard evidence. But this will give you the opportunity to expand your mind, and one day perhaps you will realize that you are the only God you will ever know."

Eldritch 15: 27-29

[lukeskywalker1]

Eldritch.. i think i missed that gospel... I hope you know there is a gospel called luke... its the 3rd in the new testament. Also the thread is called 'why is it ok to bash christiainity?' I was just sort of saying, people have always bashed christians, they always will, and it doesnt matter if i can pursuade you not to, half the world will bash anyways

[Eldritch]

Yes, I do realize there is a gospel called Luke. I was raised Catholic, and attended a private Catholic school until 8th grade, in which I attended mass at my church 6 times a week. Please try not to make such assumptions of others. Its not very Christ like.

 

There's a major difference between "bashing" and respectfully questioning the validity of some of its claims.

 

My point is that by quoting that passage of the bible and going along with that line of thinking, you're able to rationalize any good logical arguments that come along. "God told me this would happen, so I can just ignore you and everything you say."

I know he's said that he is a shepard, but that doesn't mean that you have to be sheep (although I think perhaps a Lemming would be a more accurate way of describing it).

[lukeskywalker1]

There's a major difference between "bashing" and respectfully questioning the validity of some of its claims.

 

I see the difference, but we both know, its not always like that. Thats when it become bashing (not talking about this thread, im talking about in the real world)

 

My point is that by quoting that passage of the bible and going along with that line of thinking, you're able to rationalize any good logical arguments that come along. "God told me this would happen, so I can just ignore you and everything you say."

 

My point was, whats the point of discussing why we should or shouldnt bash christianity, when we know nothing will change. There is no point.

[El Sitherino]

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

My point was, whats the point of discussing why we should or shouldnt bash christianity, when we know nothing will change. There is no point.

because it's fun debating things, showing off our vast knowledge of things.