Agen Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Well I was thinking (not a target for stupid jokes ) that since JK2 just fitted perfectly (if I remember correctly, I'm just too lazy to check) on the cd and Elite Force 2 being spread onto two discs, does anyone else think there's the possibility of JA being a 2cd game like the original (though that was mainly cutscenes). If it is, I'm willing to spend up to and extra £5 on a JA DVD assuming it isn't one for installing and one for playing like GTA3 and AVP2. Would anyone else prefer it since in the original jk I used the cds so much they got in a really bad state because of the swapping and changing (occasionally losing, very annoying)? Of course, I don't know that it will be a 2 cd game but there's a fair chance imo and I would also like the choice of 2cds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 It's highly unlikely JA will need more than two CDs, which isn't enough for a DVD. DVD games won't really be profitable until DVD becomes more widely used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 I'd like all my games to come on DVDs...and include lots of extra features, like DVD movies. I don't mean like having a running commentary in the background...but 'Making of...' featurettes, screenshots, wallpapers, trailers, etc., would make nice additions - particularly for those with slow (or no) net connections who might miss out on all that kind of stuff. The way to make it profitable is to ship the stuff on DVD so people have to upgrade to DVD drives. Just about all new PC's come with DVD drives, anyway. Besides, that's how CD's took off...software developers starting shipping their applications on CDs, and so people had to upgrade to run those programs. If the industry waits for everyone to upgrade, then hell will freeze over first. I think publishers have to be proactive in this. Yes, some people will get annoyed when they can't run a particular game because they don't have a DVD drive. I felt that way (a little) when CD drives came out - but I immediately saw the benefits of not having to keep swapping floppy discs, and waiting all afternoon for one application to install. Anyway, it's not like a DVD drive is going to break the bank, when they cost about £30. That's what I pay for the games themselves. So if JA is going to take up 2 or more CDs, then I'd prefer it if they put it on DVD with a few extra features thrown in. And yes, I too would be willing to pay that extra £5... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademaster_109 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 i think dvds are better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 If JA has two CDs, then it might be done like SoFII where it installs everything from both CDs on the hard drive (there's no option to install less stuff) and will only need the first CD, when playing, so that it knows you didn't pirate the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agen Posted July 17, 2003 Author Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by StormHammer So if JA is going to take up 2 or more CDs, then I'd prefer it if they put it on DVD with a few extra features thrown in. And yes, I too would be willing to pay that extra £5... ah, so i am not alone... good It would be much handier and osme of those extra features you mentioned would be a real nice treat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yolkboy Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 I'm totally for DVD! Woot! Like Stormhammer said, most PCs today come with a DVD drive. The extra features would be great. Of course there will be those who don't have a DVD drive would be left out. But those don't cost much but still. I think they should add extras no matter what media the game comes out on. One BIG disk of goodies! Yay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 The most important thing is that they are expensive. More expensive to make, and more expensive for us to buy. It's much cheaper to use two CDs instead of one DVD. We've been playing games with two CDs since 1997 or earlier. Wing Commander III had like four discs, and that was even before JK, which was 1997. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 But if all games are released on DVD, the price WILL drop. The demand will be higher, so the price will rise first, then the production capacity of DVDs is increased, the prices will drop and there you have it: cheap DVD releasing Well 2 CDs is OK, but Enter the Matrix; 4 CDs They really should've used DVD for that game, the movies would be of higher quality too!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yolkboy Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Yup! Thanks for putting it in Economic Terms I would be more then willing to pay a little extra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 As someone who installed MS Office from 25 floppies ... I appreciate anything that helps with efficiency. The old floppy->CD analogy is nice, but doesn't really work for most games. CD games like Myst allowed as much data as on ~450 floppies! A DVD (assuming 4.7GB) allows ~8 CD's worth of data. That is great, but it isn't 'paradigm scale' as was the case going to CD. However, aside from convenience there is only one draw - allowing high resultion cutscenes / extras / movies. Those all cost money, and the DVD's all cost more, so the economics don't favor it. It would only be based on an economy of scale, which would make sense since the gaming industry is as large as the movie industry (of course, those numbers are box office only), but since the majority of the gaming industry is console, and that only a small portion of PC games would have any benefit from a DVD (like enter the Matrix, which is compelling only due its' huge sales), it seems a hard business case. That said, I'd love to see games at least come in DVD cases (like they do for console games. And I'd love to have my new JA DVD case come with a lovely DVD in it with high resolution cutscenes Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by StormHammer I'd like all my games to come on DVDs...and include lots of extra features, like DVD movies. I don't mean like having a running commentary in the background...but 'Making of...' featurettes, screenshots, wallpapers, trailers, etc., would make nice additions - particularly for those with slow (or no) net connections who might miss out on all that kind of stuff. I like this idea a lot. I'd love to have all sorts of extras like this. I'm a big fan of concept art, and it might to be neat to have a lot of that stuff included. Also, in the JO manual there are short blurbs discribing the background of each major character. Perhaps it would be cool to have an extended version of this, sort of like an entry in the Essential Guide to Characters. The possibilities are endless... Originally posted by StormHammer The way to make it profitable is to ship the stuff on DVD so people have to upgrade to DVD drives. Just about all new PC's come with DVD drives, anyway. Besides, that's how CD's took off...software developers starting shipping their applications on CDs, and so people had to upgrade to run those programs. If the industry waits for everyone to upgrade, then hell will freeze over first. I think publishers have to be proactive in this. Yes, some people will get annoyed when they can't run a particular game because they don't have a DVD drive. I felt that way (a little) when CD drives came out - but I immediately saw the benefits of not having to keep swapping floppy discs, and waiting all afternoon for one application to install. Actually, I'm not quite sure what the saturation is for DVD drives these days. I got one when I got my new machine a couple of years ago. It is a chicken-and-egg problem. You don't want to limit your market by only distributing DVDs (if there really aren't that many out there). But at the same time, you want your customers to upgrade because you are going to want to put out DVDs eventually. Perhaps the best way would be to release the game on CDs, but also release a "Special Edition" on DVD which includes all the extra stuff. This would provide some incentive for people to get a DVD drive, but at the same time not alienate the CD population. Originally posted by StormHammer Anyway, it's not like a DVD drive is going to break the bank, when they cost about £30. That's what I pay for the games themselves. Very true. But keep in mind that a good portion of the gaming population is quite young and playing games on their parent's machines. They do not always have the option to upgrade the machines they play on. But the cheapness of DVD drives does mean it isn't a big issue anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 In what way is forcing customers to buy a DVD drive different, from forcing them to buy a new videocard?? If you wanna play all games, you have to have a relatively new videocard. Nobody complains about that So why complain about games being released on DVD?? Oh and Mike, don't get jealous (sp?), but ALL games are released in a DVD case here It has been like that for years now My last game that wasn't in a DVD package was Half-Life Generations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by HertogJan In what way is forcing customers to buy a DVD drive different, from forcing them to buy a new videocard?? If you wanna play all games, you have to have a relatively new videocard. Nobody complains about that So why complain about games being released on DVD?? The difference is that often you can play games with video cards that are much less than what is "recommended". You can play JO on a piece-of-crap video card if you crank all the settings way down. It will look bad, but you can still play it. With a DVD drive, it is an all or nothing affair. No matter how good your machine is, you couldn't play the game without one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yolkboy Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by Prime Perhaps the best way would be to release the game on CDs, but also release a "Special Edition" on DVD which includes all the extra stuff. This would provide some incentive for people to get a DVD drive, but at the same time not alienate the CD population. But the cheapness of DVD drives does mean it isn't a big issue anymore. Ooooohhh.... Special Edition I like it. That way we won't limit the amount of people playing. Sounds Great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Yeah, of course the price would drop if everyone used them, but companies want to milk the current market as long as possible. Same reason we're still using 32-bit chips when the 64s have been around for years... Hopefully AMD's new 64-bit stuff that runs 32-bit without emulation should change this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Hmmm... Special Edition... ok, possible, but lots of special editions come only AFTER the game is released, because all the extra footage and goodies have to be assembled first, and since every developer wants to put out a game as fast as possible... They're not going to take their time for it... And yes Prime, there is a difference, but if you realize that DVD-Roms are fairly cheap and that EVERY self-respecting gamer must upgrade once in a while, most people that want to play JA already should have upgraded their PCs... WITH a DVD rom drive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by HertogJan In what way is forcing customers to buy a DVD drive different, from forcing them to buy a new videocard?? If you wanna play all games, you have to have a relatively new videocard. Nobody complains about that So why complain about games being released on DVD?? Oh and Mike, don't get jealous (sp?), but ALL games are released in a DVD case here It has been like that for years now My last game that wasn't in a DVD package was Half-Life Generations Hmmm ... I posted yesterday afternoon, but was having problems with the forums server response ... guess it didn't go through ... Anyway, I know other countries (than the US) have DVD cases - MoHAA was the first game I got in a 'small box'. I don't know why they don't go to DVD cases? As for upgrades - I've got an old PIII 850 (it's an NT4 box) that I upgraded from some generic card to a GeForce 2 in order to play Soldier of Fortune. That upgrade enabled that machine to play 3D games. The system has a CD-RW, no DVD. Upgrading to a DVD has no intrinsic value in terms of games - it could if there was the right content on the disc, but just as a way to make it on 1 disc ... no. I don't care whether JA comes on 2 CD's or 1 DVD ... so long as it come's out in September I'd spend the weekend loading it from 750 floppies (BTW ... that isn't my game machine ... not for ~2 years anyway ) Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praenuntius Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 What I reckon they should start doing, is at least give users the option of having all cut scenes pre-rendered. If the cutscenes use the game engine, then I want to be able to spend up to 2-hours per cutscene converting them into video files for automatic use in the game. Why? 1. I have lots of hard drive space. 2. I'm not using my computer most of the time it's on. 3. Cutscene's rendered in realtime aren't ever as good as pre-rendered cutscenes. 4. Prerendered cutscenes are high quality regardless of chipset or settings. 5. This way cutscenes won't require as much CD / DVD space as they currently do and we could still enjoy nice looking cutscenes if we wanted. 6. I'm seeing more games now with in-engine cutscenes instead of pre-rendered and I'd much rather they took the middle ground instead of switch straight to often crappy cutscenes. I thought this idea relevent to the topic via game content and disk usage thought tracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by HertogJan Hmmm... Special Edition... ok, possible, but lots of special editions come only AFTER the game is released, because all the extra footage and goodies have to be assembled first, and since every developer wants to put out a game as fast as possible... They're not going to take their time for it... If it is a serious enough issue to get everyone to use DVD drives, and if having a DVD "special edition" will get them to do it, then companies will have no problems getting it out at the same time There have been plenty of cases where a deluxe edition has come out the same time as the regular game. JO was one, I believe (I no it is not exactly the same thing we are talking about here). Originally posted by HertogJan And yes Prime, there is a difference, but if you realize that DVD-Roms are fairly cheap and that EVERY self-respecting gamer must upgrade once in a while, most people that want to play JA already should have upgraded their PCs... WITH a DVD rom drive I agree that if you are going to play the newest games, you are going to have to get a decent machine. My point was that many players are the 13 year old/not working/no money/rely on dad for computer variety who doesn't have control over whether the machine gets upgraded or not. All I'm saying is that game companies probably don't want to go to DVDs exclusively at this time because then those players won't play, and more importantly, won't buy. Originally posted by praenuntius What I reckon they should start doing, is at least give users the option of having all cut scenes pre-rendered. If the cutscenes use the game engine, then I want to be able to spend up to 2-hours per cutscene converting them into video files for automatic use in the game. Why? 1. I have lots of hard drive space. 2. I'm not using my computer most of the time it's on. 3. Cutscene's rendered in realtime aren't ever as good as pre-rendered cutscenes. 4. Prerendered cutscenes are high quality regardless of chipset or settings. 5. This way cutscenes won't require as much CD / DVD space as they currently do and we could still enjoy nice looking cutscenes if we wanted. 6. I'm seeing more games now with in-engine cutscenes instead of pre-rendered and I'd much rather they took the middle ground instead of switch straight to often crappy cutscenes. I don't see how this works. How can you convert a cutscene created by using the game engine to a rendered cutscene and have it look any better? The rendered cutscenes are better looking because of the content you put into it, not the way it is played. If a rendered cutscene was created from the game engine, it is going to look the same as if it was generated on the fly. Simply rendering it won't make something like the JO cutscenes look like the parts where the Raven's Claw is flying around. The only way to get what you want is to have both game engine cutscenes and pre-rendered cutscenes available. This is, of course, pointless because who is going to watch the non-rendered ones if rendered ones are available? The reason you are seeing more game engine cutscenes has more to do with the development time and money. If you are going to have a lot of cutscenes, then writing scripts for the engine is a lot easier than creating a bunch of rendered scenes. You also get the "added bonus" that the cutscenes looks the same as the game you are playing, so it is consistent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by praenuntius I thought this idea relevent to the topic via game content and disk usage thought tracks. I think it is very much 'on topic' because it is about a reason to use a DVD other than just saving a CD or two. I agree with Prime on the whole cutscene thing - someone said that in-engine cutscenes are more immersive, I don't really buy that. CGI or in-engine would be fine, they both yank you out of the game, but not nearly so much as FMV (gawd I hope I didn't just open that wormhole again ) But the idea of a 'Special Edition DVD Version', which would have DVD-quality cutscenes, and things like the whole trailer and screenshot library, and so on, would be very appealing. I would GLADLY pay $80 for that (as opposed to the 'special' RTCW in a tin can or the JO with games I already had ...) Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legameboy Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Perhaps the best way would be to release the game on CDs, but also release a "Special Edition" on DVD which includes all the extra stuff. Like kind of what you got if you pre-ordered The Clone Campaigns (early enough)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agen Posted July 19, 2003 Author Share Posted July 19, 2003 Originally posted by Prime With a DVD drive, it is an all or nothing affair. No matter how good your machine is, you couldn't play the game without one I totally agree, for me i would much prefer having the choice like you have on many game magazines now . Also if it was trying to force people to upgrade then we would probably end up with less online players and also alot of people would just go and get competing games like Halo or HL....Bad idea imo to go completely dvd, well in this case anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 Originally posted by legameboy Like kind of what you got if you pre-ordered The Clone Campaigns (early enough)? No idea. Never played it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 If UbiSoft, Sierra, EA, Microsoft and Activision stop releasing games on CD, but realease them on DVD instead, I'm sure the ppl will have upgraded in no time The publishers just should work together to get this thing true Unfortunately, this is not very likely to happen. They want to release games as cheap as possible, even when a gamer has to load from 10 CDs, as long as it is cheaper And most big companies aren't exactly well-known for their cooperative skills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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