ThunderPeel2001

(Sorry, I wrote far too much for such a small point. We don't really need to get into the weeds of this! But since I've written it, here it is: ) Of course I appreciate that we're all fallible and that human memory is unreliable, and yes there's nothing wrong with being critical, but when the default position is: I think that's a bit far. You may disagree, or maybe you think that was a bit far too, but I'll give you my reasoning why I think that: Outside of contemporary accounts/documents, the team's recollections are still the best sources we have, even with fallible human memory. Everything else is just speculation by people who weren't there. Unless we can directly contradict those memories with contemporary documented fact, then I think there isn't really any real reason to automatically doubt what anyone says. I appreciate that you've tried to dig up contemporary evidence to support your belief that Ron is misremembering: But this is only assumption on your part: We don't know how many versions Peter Chan went through of those other locations. The earliest dated sketches for MI2 are actually from February and March 91. The latest dated images we have are from late July/early August, with the tunnel image being among them. So as far as anyone can tell, it was one of the last ones to be produced... again as far as anyone can tell. We also really don't know much about the production schedules at LucasArts. How far in advance did Ron need to supply a completed story for the artists, animators, composers, programmers? How long did they spend in QA before going gold? As you're aware, they couldn't release patches back in those days, so production had to stop with plenty of time for QA to ensure the game was stable. We just don't know. We also don't know if those tunnels were originally going to be used as something else, possibly unrelated to that ending. (Interesting to note that "El Carlo" is mentioned on a June 25 sketch. I'm confused by that! When you started writing the story in late November 1990, and you still haven't figured out who your baddie is seven months later... or was that just Peter Chan getting confused and using an old character name? Who can say?) Plus, when you start discounting evidence, there's a danger of another human failure (that we're all guilty of): Picking and choosing facts to fit our narratives. You say Ron is misremembering in 2022 because it's 30 years ago. But that also means he was misremembering in 2013, when he said he could remember the exact moment he was lying in bed and the ending came to him. And this is from a man with boxes full of waterlogged documentation that we've only seen glimpses of. I agree that some of what we've heard reads very contradictorily (what was Ron referring to in that Adventurer interview??), but unless we have hard evidence to prove otherwise, those recollections are the best we have. I'd lean towards believing them, with a critical eye, than automatically assuming they're unlikely to be true. Or maybe this is just semantics.

Double post

I can see why Ron (and Dave) get so annoyed when fans tell them they've remembered things wrong (I remember Dave in particular on Twitter getting very irritated). It must be incredibly frustrating to have people who weren't there doubt what you tell them.

That was very interesting, although it was, of course cut.

Check out the Amiga thread. It doesn’t appear to be the case that it was an especially late addition. If anything it looks like they were trying to figure out how to do scene fades with the Amiga hardware.

I know you say you don’t feel the same way anymore, but I actually agree with you here. I’d forgotten that feeling, but I think there IS something slightly less satisfying about playing through an extended flashback. (Although I’m not sure I even fully understand why.) Re: The MI2’s ending. Here’s my personal wish for how it could have been interpreted: Firstly, I have to say that I wish the voodoo power of Big Whoop had been a bigger part of the explanation. I love Curse, but making Big Whoop a literal theme park never felt right to me. My own personal pet explanation was that Guybrush accidentally unleashed the awesome voodoo power of Big Whoop when the chest broke: But it took a few minutes to fully permeate and twist reality. So the longer you’re playing the last section of MI2, the more Big Whoop is taking control. Accidentally unleashing Big Whoop near LeChuck had an unintended consequence: He was also pulled into this new disturbing voodoo reality. (This explains why LeChuck’s attempt to transport Guybrush into a dimension of pain doesn’t work — they’re both already in another dimension.) Big Whoop is, as the voodoo lady said, an incredible power. And it can be used to bend reality. But while everyone else treated that power with total respect. Possibly only carefully taking a fraction of it with each use. Guybrush accidentally unleashed the whole damn thing at once by clumsily smashing its container. All Guybrush wanted was to escape LeChuck. And maybe that subconsciously manifested in a desire to become a kid again: bring his parents back to life and feel safe. Except Guybrush being Guybrush, he fumbles the whole thing and takes LeChuck with him into this new twisted dimension and casts him as his brother. So my Monkey 3a would have involved both LeChuck and Guybrush trying to escape from (and undo) Big Whoop. LeChuck hating Guybrush even more for having forced him to endure this Big Whoop created reality. And Big Whoop’s reality would have kept getting weirder and nightmarish. (Think David Lynch.) It wouldn’t have just stayed in a theme park. It would have glitched and twisted. Maybe Guybrush’s parents would have become evil, trying to stop Guybrush and LeChuck escaping. And previously visited locations would appear randomly. And maybe Big Whoop world have kept slowly growing, sucking in everyone on Dinky, so that Elaine and then Herman would appear in that new world, too. Anyway, that’s my own personal interpretation/wish list: As soon as that chest broke, reality became perverted.

I don’t believe anyone IS saying it’s the “definitive explanation”. I was merely referring to one of the popular interpretations (which was possibly exacerbated by what looks like a bug in the Amiga version where Elaine’s SPELL comment didn’t appear). It’s unquestionable that MI2’s ending was divisive and that a lot of people hated it. (It certainly took me many years to grow to like it, and Ron himself says he STILL gets emails from people saying how much they hated it.) Side note: In a weird way I don’t know why we’re even discussing different interpretations anymore: Ron has apparently wholeheartedly embraced Curse’s detailed explanation. He has said they’ve been “very careful” not to contradict anything, so basically Curse’s “theme park of the dammed” is now Roncanon. I also think that the heightened emotions about Return are partially fuelled by people desperately wanting a Roncanon explanation to MI2’s confusing ending. (Which Ron has repeatedly stated he didn’t have a plan for.) “The muse visits when the work begins.”

Another Ron clarification on Twitter: So the "child's fantasy" ending isn't related to the anachronisms in MI1 -- at least in a pre-planned way, as the ending hadn't even been thought of until close to the end of production. And actually I just remembered that Ron talked about how the idea for the ending came about in his Pax Australia keynote -- which I can't believe I forgot during this whole conversation 🤦‍♂️.

Yeah, Dread's story always confused me. It was obviously a reference to the navigator's head... but then the description was off.

Tweet: "@grumpygamer True or false: MI2's ending was originally planned for MI1, but Tim and Dave talked Ron out of it" Reply: @grumpygamer: "False." This is what Bill Tiller originally said: As reported here: https://mixnmojo.com/news/On-this-day-16-years-ago-Bill-Tiller-revealed-the-secret-of-Monkey-Island

Wow. That's pretty incredible! Great find! Now I really want to ask him (and Dave) if there's any truth to the rumour that the "child's fantasy" was the original ending to MI1 until Tim and Dave talked him out of it!

That’s what I said a few pages back, however there’s been enough quotes from legitimate sources to make me accept that it can’t be true. However it’s interesting to me that I don’t think “the secret” was mentioned in MI2? (Please correct me if I’m wrong.) If there really was this ongoing mystery, then why not mention it in MI2? As for the anachronisms, I agree that they got too much for me, but in Escape before Tales. The first three MIs felt like a real pirate world first, and a jokey anachronism second. Which is how I like it. Blazing Saddles still feels like a western despite it ending with the characters going to modern cinema to watch how the film ends. It’s great when you can have your cake and eat it.

DOTT was aping an existing style. I don't think Rex Crowle was copying DOTT myself. Here's some interesting quotes from contemporary MI2 reviews about humour in video games. (Interesting to me, at least! The industry has changed so much...)

Ron and Dave have remarkable memories, if you ask me. They were setting the story straight on the "guybrush" DPaint filename not that long ago.

I personally think the Voodoo Lady was just playing the role of ominous mystic in the first MI. I didn't take her premonitions to mean anything more than a writer trying to hype up the reader (in a half jokey way -- "You will see things best left unseen", etc.). However there was a rumour that the "child's fantasy" ending was planned for the first game, but Dave and Tim talked Ron out of it. And when they got to MI2 they didn't have an ending, so they just went with Ron's crazy idea. I don't know if that's true, but I'd sure love to ask Ron and Dave. If it is, then maybe the Voodoo Lady's words actually were referring to that ending? 🤷‍♂️

Ah yes, that's what I was reading (actually this: http://amr.abime.net/review_8 and this: http://amr.abime.net/review_694 -- but it basically points to the same thing). A couple of other things I learned: Amiga Power's reviews were so much better than other magazine's. And wow. Some of the dreck that passed as a review in certain magazines... I don't think I noticed as much when I was 12. And um, when I started writing this I had in my mind a small piece that literally lamented why games weren't funny, and now I can't find it after all. Dang.

Yep! I was literally reading contemporary reviews last night, so it's all very fresh in my mind. It was, just as you say, extremely interesting! I'll pull out some of the quotes I read while I can still remember them.

Sure. But what's wrong with pointing outs the facts against it?

This. A thousand times this. Everyone has forgotten the context. Back in 1990, most adventure games were Fantasy (with a capital F) and they took themselves seriously. VERY seriously. They were mostly dour, dry and humourless. They were unable to laugh at themselves. (They were also unforgiving. (Didn't pick up the red berry on the first screen? Tough luck, you needed that to beat the big bad in the final scene. Now you have to start over.) And often impenetrable: 'Oops, you used the wrong verb. You needed to "hurl" the axe, not "throw" it. Game over.') The Secret of Monkey Island was a reaction to all of that. It's why it made such a dent in the videogame landscape. It was a glorious breath of fresh air! It was FUN. It was FUNNY. It didn't take itself too seriously. It was accessible and forgiving. All the fourth wall busting jokes, the silly anachronisms, they were just a reaction to contemporary adventure games. The whole genre was ripe for someone popping its pomposity. Hell, the whole industry needed some humour injecting into it. If you go back and read contemporary reviews, there was often comments about the lack of humour in video games. And even debates as to why that was. Monkey Island was an oddity: a genuinely funny video game. But now we're examining it through the prism of today's video games: As if humour was everywhere. As if there was some master plan with the jokes they selected. As if they said, "let's change this joke to an anachronistic one to hint to the user that this is all a fantasy". Everything they did was because it made the developers laugh. That was already rock and roll in itself. Not one contemporary review made mention of the anachronisms because those sort of jokes are staples of broad comedy -- especially comedy set in historical times. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single comedy movie that was set in historical times that didn't feature at least one anachronistic joke. (And if you did, it would be the exception that proved the rule.) Here's a list: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/AnachronismStew/FilmsUsingRuleOfFunny

Yep, you are right. Interesting! Guybrush : What's so scary about this LeChuck guy? Estevan : LeChuck was a fearsome pirate. He tried to impress the Governor by sailing off to find the Secret of Monkey Island™. But a mysterious came up and sank his ship, leaving no survivors. We thought that was the end of the fearsome pirate LeChuck. We were wrong. Stan : This here is the famous "Sea Monkey." --The only ship ever to make it to Monkey Island™... ...and come back with anyone aboard left alive. Or, should I say, anyTHING. You see, two previous owners of this ship were two adventurous pirates. They set off, like many before, to find the legendary Secret of Monkey Island™. And, like many before, they disappeared forever. Their fate--a mystery. Almost as mysterious as how this ship returned to Mêlée Island™ without a single human aboard. Some claim it was sailed back by a crew of chimps. Captain's log, March 10th. First mate Toothrot and I have been searching for Monkey Island™ for over a month with no success. The directions we purchased on Mêlée proved to be a recipe, not a map as we had believed. Captain's log, March 12th. I wish Toothrot would take a bath. Captain's log, March 17th. I wish Toothrot would stop snoring. Captain's log, March 23rd. Toothrot is really starting to get on my nerves. I figure it's only a matter of time before we come to blows. Captain's log, April 2nd. As a gesture to restore our friendship, Toothrot offered to fix dinner tonight. Captain's log, April 3rd. I don't know how we did it, but we've arrived at Monkey Island™. Both Toothrot and I passed out from the soup he fixed last night. When we awoke, Monkey Island™ was sitting off the bow. Captain's log, April 4th. Toothrot and I filled the rowboat with supplies and are ready to set out to Monkey Island™. We are both excited at the prospect of being the first civilized people to learn the Secret of Monkey Island™. Captain' log, April 5th. We had to turn around and return to the ship. Toothrot forgot to go to the bathroom before we left. We'll set out again tomorrow. Herman : Well, I sailed here with a friend of mine twenty years ago. We hoped to discover the Secret of Monkey Island™. But my friend met with a horrifying and tragic accident... ...which claimed his life... ...and I couldn't sail the ship back by myself. I trained a bunch of chimps to crew the ship and sail it back to Mêlée Island™. They were supposed to get help and come back for me... ...something must have happened.

Yeah, it's actually very anatomically correct. Whoever drew it was copying a real model/drawing, or just knows their anatomy. The inclusion of costal cartilage (never knew the name of it before, thanks Ben!) really pushes that for me.

That looks the opposite of robotic to me... A fleshy head (with ear wax) connected to a skeletal body underneath. It never once crossed my mind that it was supposed to be metallic. It's anatomically correct! Is it true that Grossman supposedly said the secret was a giant robot monkey? (Hence Monkey Kombat) I just never understood that. Exactly. It's the title of the game, so it's fun that Guybrush mentions it, but it's never mentioned again. And when he gets there he discovers a giant monkey (which presumably gave the island its name) which leads to a hellish underworld. Other than Guybrush stopping and saying, "So THIS is the Secret of Monkey Island!".

You know, that was a question I've never worried about. Although (now I think about it) I think Ron has been guilty of poking the flames of it, making it seem like more than it was. I mean, surely the secret is just that there's a portal to hell on it that you enter via a giant dead monkey? Why have people assumed there's more than that (unless it's an explanation as to WHY there's a giant dead monkey that leads to hell on it?)

And will only continue as we get older and more forgetful. LucasArts: The gift that keeps on giving!

Unfortunately you can't really make it into a 2D game and keep the same mechanics. They've really tried to focus hard on things that work in the 3D space, so I can't see how it could work in 2D. Sorry! (All this is revealed in the seriously late Mojo review.)