Lord Sokar Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 The purpose of this open letter is to voice my disgust with the practices and lack of support shown primarily by Raven Software as well as Lucasarts. Today, I regretfully have cancelled my hosting service, taken my server down and will never again support a community for a game that has been released by your company. This is why. In 2002, I bought Jedi Outcast the day it came out. After completing the single-player game twice, I jumped online and fell in love with the first online game I’ve ever really ‘got into’ outside of Counter-Strike. It was a truly unique experience being able to do battle using a lightsaber. I practiced often (too often) and became quite good at the game. My first negative experience with Raven’s ineptness game came when you had the audacity to RADICALLY alter the game play with the first JO patch (1.03). As a saber-only player, I was shocked that EVERYTHING was changed with that patch rendering everything I had spent a full month on practically useless. I remember discussions from Raven representatives (back when they would even comment publicly) at the time about how the yellow stance ‘never was meant to be this way’, so it was changed to the way it was ‘suppose to be all alone’. Some moves which were good for a humiliating 20 damage point kill were now worth 100 points (the blue-stance backstab) giving birth to a whole new set of even more nonsensical ‘exploits’ in the game. It is not my intention to dwell on game play shortcomings of your game, it simply serves as an example of Raven not understanding what makes a good online game. You do NOT radically alter the play of a game that has already been out a month. As a server owner/administrator, the problems were much, much deeper than the average ‘player’ understood. For example, 1.02 as well as 1.03 servers (both Linux and NT) were extremely unstable and crashed at the sight of a stiff breeze. But the problems were even deeper. Performing an RCON STATUS command would list approximately 3 lines before it would just stop dead it’s tracks making administering the server practically impossible. I hear that this finally got fixed with 1.04, but my frustration level had reached a point where I quit the game entirely, so I’m not sure. When I first heard that Jedi Academy was to be released, I was ecstatic that a second chance for a great online game had come up, but I had my reservations because you guys (Raven) were still at the helm. I had no idea just how concerned I should have been before plunking down over $100 to make everything happen. After being kicked and banned from several servers filled with RP’ers, I decided to take the plunge and support the community once again by renting a server and tweaking it to perfection over a few days. Now, I regret that decision. For the past month that I have owned my server, it has NOT been listed in your master list for a grand total of 4 or 5 days. Here is a simple equation you should learn: Server not listed in masterlist = NO PLAYERS To further add insult to injury, the ONLY official comment from Raven regarding this nonsense has been for people to ‘use GameSpy or ASE’. That is absolutely unacceptable. That’s like Microsoft telling people who have bought a non-functioning copy of Word to use Wordpad instead. It’s laughable. The final straw broke when my server re-appeared in the list on Sunday, October 19th and then promptly disappeared again after the master list went down the VERY NEXT DAY. The following is a letter from my service provide who shall remain anonymous: Yes, it's a common thing right now. As near as I can tell, Raven has instituted some new functionality which prevents people who are playing stolen/leaked versions of the game from being able to see the Master List or run servers online. As a result, it affects all the honest people, server to a point. Here's hoping that Raven can get their act together and get servers to appear more promptly! So, is this true? I think we deserve an answer. If your efforts to curtail illegal copies have caused the master list to filter out legitimate copies of the game (keep in mind my server was professionally hosted by a legitimate company using legitimate copies) you should ALL be ashamed. Look around the Internet sometime. Go to what I consider true gaming companies and read about how they handle online servers. Check out Valve. I never thought that anything could top the botched first release of Steam, but you have managed to make the release of Steam appear to be a well planned rollout. Look at Microsoft’s rollout of the first patch for Halo. The server was released the day before the new client patch. Look at how Unreal Tournament 2003 has been a relatively smooth experience and ask yourself why you can’t accomplish the same task. You have proven yourselves to be woefully inept at supporting an online gaming community. If you think that your latest game merits being purchased on the strength of its single-player game alone, you are incredibly misguided. The plot was pathetic and the movement was seriously hosed. No longer did my character in the game run where he/she was going, they ‘floated’ there instead. I didn’t know that moving 15 feet per step was a Jedi ability. I will go out of my way to encourage people to not purchase this game given your horrible track record at supporting online games. This has taken any desire I had to get good at this game, support the community and even try to get involved in ladder competitions. It’s just not worth it any more due to the non-stop bungles you guys seem to be capable of. In closing, I sincerely hope that any future Jedi Knight titles are awarded to a company more capable than Raven Software. You have proven time and again that you are not up to the challenge of supporting an online gaming community. Unlike most game producers, you have yet to understand that long term viability of this product is dependant on supporting the people who pay money to operate servers to attract players, and you do not deserve our support. Sincerely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WadeV1589 Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Well that was new... In their defense, I believe, or I have read in places, it is LucasArts who are to blame for Jedi Academy's problems in more than the master server area. I remember reading comments like they restricted Raven in many areas and rushed them in others. Whether that is true or not is not for me to say, it's only what I've heard. Also I've played Elite Force, Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy, at no point have I seen their support of the community to ever be poor. They may make mistakes as you so rightly pointed out, but they do try. Head over to http://www.map-center.com and look at Raven (the guy) who works for Raven (the company) helping modders out more than he is required to. Raven Software are a very mod loving community, they do seem smaller than other companies though...but that may just be me. And they are working from the land of cheeeeeeeese I think maybe your "letter" needs to be toned down somewhat. It may make valid points but in the end it comes down to you saying you hate Raven's attitude towards the community and will try and stop people buying their stuff which won't go down well with anyone. I await to either be agreed with or flamed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 My question is... have you sent this letter to anyone at Raven, or are you just posting it here as a "cathersis"? Because there's no shortage of "complaint threads" already on here because of the lack of an official patch. Just curious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sokar Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 Wade, No need for flames, even if we disagree! Yes, my letter is angry, because I have been ripped off and poor service from ANY company brings out the worst in me every time. The most baffling part of all this is, like you said, we've 'read comments' or 'heard rumors' about this that and the other. Raven NOR Lucasarts respects us enough to even acknowledge what the hell is going on or when or how it can be rectified. And that is the most unacceptable part of all this. I can only speak to my experience with Raven with the JK series, and it has been a dismal experience to say the least. I'm happy someone from Raven has been helping people with models somewhere else, but without working servers, it's all a moot point. Kurgan, I meant to say in the first post that this has been posted to Raven's forums as well as being emailed directly to Lucasarts and Raven. I'm also not going to 'wait around' for a patch considering the mess Raven made of JO with 1.03. My expectations is... it's only going to go downhill from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat3001 Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 not to be insulting or anything, but it is kinda weird that at the end of your letter (which i did not entirely read) you drop an advertisement for your server. i thought you said you hated them and your server was done...or maybe i am just playing devil's advocate.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sokar Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by SpecialForces um they made the patches to fix stuff, like back stab so my guess is that you were a backstab whore....EWWWW Get over it, this is stupid. How typical. Perhaps a refresher course in reading comprehension is in order here. If you will read my post again, you will see that I gave up when 1.03 was released. I didn't play it enough to bother with the backstab mess. pat, I haven't bothered with editing my profile yet to remove it because I am most likely done now. Don't read too much into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by WadeV1589 They may make mistakes as you so rightly pointed out, but they do try. Head over to http://www.map-center.com and look at Raven (the guy) who works for Raven (the company) helping modders out more than he is required to. Raven Software are a very mod loving community... This is true. They are very helpful to the modding community, and often answer questions and give suggestions on how to do different things. Devs have also posted here about how players can alter gameplay to there various tastes. They have not spoken about patches and things of that sort because the are legally obligated not to. They are also very limited with what they can do without the permission of Lucasarts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro The Hutt Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 About the server problem, why are you bashing Raven into the ground already , while it's common knowledge that at this point they are working on a patch that should adress several problems. But erm.. man, that's the most bitter post I've read on this forum ever. Lighten up my friend ^.^ The Force is with us in digital format! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by Pedro The Hutt About the server problem, why are you bashing Raven into the ground already , while it's common knowledge that at this point they are working on a patch that should adress several problems. But erm.. man, that's the most bitter post I've read on this forum ever. Lighten up my friend ^.^ The Force is with us in digital format! Actually, they're still waiting on a go ahead from LucasArts in order to release the server fix, but LucasArts is holding back. Then why the hell did you not like the update! Your just bitching....... Why the hell are you even talking? Please proceed to remove your foot from your mouth and come back when you have even a decent chance of commenting rather then blindly (and pathetically, might I add) chew someone out. um they made the patches to fix stuff, like back stab so my guess is that you were a backstab whore....EWWWW Get over it, this is stupid. Another statement from he who be sucking on toejam. RTFP, then proceed to the first grade to begin the brutal process of learning reading comprehension. This is true. They are very helpful to the modding community, and often answer questions and give suggestions on how to do different things. Devs have also posted here about how players can alter gameplay to there various tastes. Raven has only been helpful in terms of modeling, skinning, and mapping. However, they're limited in even those fields by everyone's "best friend," LucasArts. There could be mods that surpass the origonal game by far, but LucasArts is scared ****less to allow Raven to release source code. Even as JKII was dying, LucasArts sat on their hands, and it was a deathblow. Now, for the general statement. Sokar, I feel for you. Hell, I feel for all of the server admins that are nailed by this bug (samurai wannabes or not), and the people who are stuck with the parsepacketentities problem who have bought a LEGIT copy of the game (it has happened to a few friends of mine, I have seen it with my own eyes). It sickens me that these problems came shipped out of the door, due to either Raven's ****ty quality control or LucasArts just wanting another product for the Benjamins (I believe the latter would be more feasible). It's not just the server administrators that are banged up right now, but it is the most noticable. Good letter, my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 There happens to be a species that defines your characteristics, SpecialForces. It's not homo sapien either. It's trollus VNBoardis. I'll leave the rest for you to figure out, since you have no clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 This is true. They are very helpful to the modding community, and often answer questions and give suggestions on how to do different things. Devs have also posted here about how players can alter gameplay to there various tastes. Well, that's true. Some of the Raven staff is very helpful by answering questions. However, that needs to be supplimented by a patch for the major issues and a SDK release to be honest about their statement of better mod support. Beyond that, everything is opinion. It would be great if we had some official documentation on stuff, but we can figure it out...eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucubration Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 you shouldn't have to 'figure out' how to make a game you've bought actually work. that's what the alphas are for. it would seem raven (or someone up there in the heirarchy) didn't catch that part, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by Prime They have not spoken about patches and things of that sort because the are legally obligated not to. They are also very limited with what they can do without the permission of Lucasarts. He’s right. Lucas Arts is one of, if not THE single most out of touch major software company around these days. They have become little more than license holders over the last few years. Virtually all of their games are done by third parties, and those few that were done in-house have been... less than stellar to say the least. Having all of their games done by third party developers is great... but they (LA) are so fanatically anal about the licensing issues of the star wars property, that it takes 4 months and a board room of 400 lawyers just to decide on the shade of red that will be used for light sabers in the game. Raven did make some mistakes here and there with game play changes, but they are human, we all screw up. id software has some of, if not the best involvement with their players/customers in the gaming industry, but they too have put out some crappy patches and made mistakes. The difference was, players knew id would always fix what they messed up, so players just rode it out for a month or so then here came a better patch. The problem is, even if they (Raven) do realize they dropped the ball, they are not legally allowed to go back and fix it until LA legal says they can. I have no doubt that if this series was 100% Raven/Activision and LA legal gave them total freedom (in regards to patches and community support) we would have ten times the quality of product. Look at SoF 2, no lack of developer support there. Why? No licensed property holders standing in the way of getting things done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master William Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Hehe, I see I was mentioned Well, I got JK2 exactly after 1.04 was released, so I have no clue what you are talking about. It felt great for me. (Greater than JA.) They should let all this JA developing to people who are more experienced. This is just silly. This game has probably been the number one source of irritation in the world. Why? ''omg lam0r im gonna hax ur comp lolol and btw ur banned'' Server Disconnected: Kicked /reconnect Connecting reconnect:213.67.245.145:27900 Awaiting gamestate... Banned. Do you see the point? All this useless whining, banning, all. All these annoying idiots who make no sense in their behaviour (not at the forums, the game - JA). I mean, some days ago I got vote kicked for absolutely nothing, by some person who couldn't tolerate me fighting back when she/he attacked me. As you all know, people just like to see other people getting kicked/banned, without caring in any way. They think it is funny. I have found a great game called UT2003 (will be getting UT2004 with vehicles ), with many great mods. I will still stick with JA of course, but what we need is a better community, the amount if idiots online is just irritating... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sokar Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 William? Did you accidently post in the wrong thread or something? This thread is about servers not being listed. Not how great you are and how much you get baned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Lucas Arts is one of, if not THE single most out of touch major software company around these days. They have become little more than license holders over the last few years. .... I have no doubt that if this series was 100% Raven/Activision and LA legal gave them total freedom (in regards to patches and community support) we would have ten times the quality of product. Look at SoF 2, no lack of developer support there. Why? No licensed property holders standing in the way of getting things done. I'm going to have to agree with you there and say I think you hit the nail on the head. The problem isn't Raven, it's LA, and yes, LA needs to listen more to fans. That's the curse of having a company like them sitting on a liscense that makes changing the game so difficult, even with needed bug fixes. Now, some individuals in this thread JUST COULDN'T HELP flaming each other, and you people (you know who you are) need to stop acting like trolls and feeding troll behavior in your fellow board members. Now, I'm not going to close this discussion because I know it's full of legitimate beefs people are having. Why pay to run a server when 95% of the people who own the game can't even see it? That's a major problem and it needs to be remedied as soon as possible. Having an exploit like the Rocket Bug or a bugged skin is one thing, but not allowing most people to play multiplayer (unless they use unsupported third party programs that they may or may not know where to get or how to use) is unaccceptable. So yes, now that I know you have sent this to both Raven and LA, I'm glad you did, they need to get those complaints so they know what's up. And while your letter was angry, it was civilized enough and understandable enough that they should see where you are coming from. The question is, will they listen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master William Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 I'm simply proving how JA is being ruined and destroyed by stupid people. But heck go ahead and delete the post, was just trying to say what I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 I don't think Raven or LEC is going to listen to what is essentially, "Get sum reel skilz b4 making a game noobs, you should be ashamed" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 The question is, will they listen? Raven will probably toss it into the "We're pissed off list" that's probably a mile high and happens to be right next to the disc containing the next patch, meanwhile Smith in Accounting at LEC is rolling on the floor almost dead with laughter. Five bucks on it, guaranteed. EDIT: William, it was a compliment, not a mention. Trust me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WadeV1589 Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 The thing I don't get about LEC is how they read posts like this, see their customers are pissed and then dismiss them...lets face it, some LEC employees are going to be reading threads like this and seeing the masses of threads all about them being tight with their licenses...but they just ignore it. At what point did LEC start to almost totally ignore their customers? I just cannot get my head around a company that can dismiss masses of complaints about legitimate bugs until "that point" By "that point" I mean when they say "OK, release a patch" but then that's it...takes them months to get it into their head again before anything else can be released. It's a shame really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniaC Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 but the fact is I really don't think the "involved parties" really give a hoot about MP, due to the fact that most of their paychecks are payed by children asking mommy and daddy for a Star Wars game for the holidays, guess whats right around the corner, and you guys think it's going to get better. Hah. Like it was stated before it either takes them to long due to commitees and lawyers, and seems like the said parties have bit off more than they can chew. How many games have they released in last few months with KOTOR(PC) and the cloney FPS around the corner. No comment on Galaxies:rolleyes: shouldn't have to. Sorry for the rambling, mighty fine letter Lord Sokar, I agree with you 100 percent. Customer Sastisfaction is very important I belive,if you wish to keep a product selling and keep the customers you have and keep them happy. Most companies with superior costomer service/sastisfaction arethe one that thrive for years(except most don't have the Star wars name to sell it. eniaC P.S. Sokar, I tried to find your server the first couple weeks after you had told me about it, very rarely popped up and when it did is was primarily empty, you have made a very valid point and I hope they listen, Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by WadeV1589 The thing I don't get about LEC is how they read posts like this, see their customers are pissed and then dismiss them...lets face it, some LEC employees are going to be reading threads like this and seeing the masses of threads all about them being tight with their licenses...but they just ignore it. At what point did LEC start to almost totally ignore their customers? I just cannot get my head around a company that can dismiss masses of complaints about legitimate bugs until "that point" The "why" is real simple: It's the same reason George Lucas could put N*sync in AotC, and the same reason if he put Carrot Top in Episode 3 it would not affect his box office take: He has a captive audience. I'm not trying to insult anyone but when it comes to sci-fi stuff like Star Wars and Star Trek, people are so rabidly addicted to it that no matter what is put out, it's going to sell and sell big. How many of you bought this game and many other star wars games in the last few years *just because they were star wars games? I know I probably never would have given this game a second look if I were not a fan. The only reason I even picked it up was because of the SW stuff, now granted after I played it the fun game play is what kept me around but the initial purchase was all because of the name attached to it. I can guarantee you right now this conversation has taken place at Lucas Arts at least twice over the last year: LEC guy #1 "People are pissed about the game we just put out" LEC guy #2 "So what, you really think that if we put out Jedi Knight 3/4 next year they wouldn't buy it!" /insert laughter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IG-64 Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 note to mr. "anonymous": don't flame SP, its fine, i like it, get over it. just because they "jump around" every 200 years doesn't mean it sucks, please. and to both of you, if you don't like the game, don't scream to the world about it. stop playing and leave it to yourselves. and, raven, i would like to complement you on the replay value of SP, not including what the cheats do to add some fun great job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by ig64 note to mr. "anonymous": don't flame SP, its fine, i like it, get over it. just because they "jump around" every 200 years doesn't mean it sucks, please. and to both of you, if you don't like the game, don't scream to the world about it. stop playing and leave it to yourselves. and, raven, i would like to complement you on the replay value of SP, not including what the cheats do to add some fun great job Funny, no one is targetting SP. This is all MP problems. Not a single problem has been addressed in either MP or SP, granted, but MP is hurting a lot worse then SP right now. Wrong post to reply to, perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sokar Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by {R^S}eniaC{JC} P.S. Sokar, I tried to find your server the first couple weeks after you had told me about it, very rarely popped up and when it did is was primarily empty, you have made a very valid point and I hope they listen, Good Luck. Hey Caine, thanks for the support dude. My provider has convinced me to hang on a few more days while they increase the frequency of heartbeats to the masterlist servers as a last ditch effort. I'm going to see what happens. And has anyone seen Amidala lately? Oh. And an FYI. This thread's brother over at ravensoft.com: Raven Software Forum - Open letter thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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