Ryuken Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 The balance issues in this game are so numerous, it makes me wonder if the game was even beta tested. It is like EVERYTHING in this game is wrong, it is just amazing. The hit-boxes are wrong, the sabre balance is wrong...hell, has anyone actually tested yellow stance properly? Left swings always missing, right doing huge damage...great job monkey beta testers, you earned your bananas. After 1.04 JO, with its near perfection, it was a kick to the gut to play this flawed product. Basically the only good thing is the removal of kick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniaC Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Hope these help http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115817 http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115778 http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115616 http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115464 http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114808 have fun;) eniaC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 1.04 = well balanced, but WAY too many nerfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapNut Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 ive been playing for a long time and i havnt niticed any unballanced stuff, and whjats a nerf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 You've been playing multiplayer and you haven't noticed anything that isn't balanced? Try switch between the saber styles. A nerf is the major toning down of something, say I have a 100 damage attack, if someone nerfed that attack it would do say 25 damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodRiot Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Well I DO have to admit that the butterfly attacks for both the staff and duals are a major help in FFA and are quite deadly... However, I've lost more fights with both of them as I do with single saber... but I can kill more with the single than both of them together. From what i could gather... there are option to adjust hitboxes...so if the default setting is not the best, you can always adjust.. i've noticed this from server to server... on some servers, hitting is easier than others. In my opinion, the damage between saber is good..not perfect but good... and the hitboxes can be adjusted so i dont think there's the need for a patch that focuses primarily on this... if the next patch includes a new hitbox default that's one thing... but for me the main thing a patch should fix right now is the infamous master server bug, the major game crashing issues and similar stuff. I have also noticed that the ping average in JA is somewhat higher than it was in JO... I was quite amazed at JO«s average ping rate when browsing the master server... if that has to do with the Mserver bug and im not viewing the lower ping game servers... that's one thing... but if not and if it's possible, i'd like to see some lower pings like i saw in JO. For me, these issues are by far more important than any balance issue... and dont forget that if yer lagged out, it's quite understandable you can't hit the broad side of a barn. Oh and I forgot... about this game being noob friendly... well, if the defense is set too high then it becomes boring... if the damage is set too high, then people complain that it's not worth to practice since any random hit can kill you... the compromise is something in between like we have now... there are hits that can both kill in one move or just cause a slight scratch... to me it's not newb friendly... when i was newbie in JA i died constantly... now after lot's of practice i can handle my own and score some frags... but i still get fragged alot too. And I can tell a better player than me from a less skilled player... and believe me... it's not newb friendly. Bottom line is... IMHO... the game is quite balanced. I'm a darksider... i use drain alot but i still get killed... i fought both lightsiders and darksiders... heal and drain alike dont keep them from getting fragged or frag me... it just extends the fight a lil longer....but that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pnut_Man Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 I've noticed that a majority of the damage scales on saber swings come from body hit detection. One head strike with yellow can kill an opponent, while hit to the legs would not a considerably lower amount. I'd like to see the patch, but until then i'm having fun with the game. Even though it may be 'easier' for 'noobs', it's still possible to defeat them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akshara Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Well stated, Bloodriot. As a staff wielder, I'm way more nervous about encountering single saber wielders than duals. It'd be cool if all the JK2 single saber experts took a month and played staff only... it's a lot more difficult to use and score high frag counts than it seems when going up against experienced players. I agree, the patch should address the more important issues. The game seems pretty balanced to me. I did play JK2 for quite awhile, and JA is a lot more enjoyable for saber fighting. ----- ps. one upside of single is it's easy to thow quickly, and quite deadly. Sabers have to disable the second blade first, which is a dead give away what's about to happen. Edit: Meant to say Staves have to disable the second blade first before throwing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Dual sabers don't have to disable a blade first. Staff does almost as much damage as a red slash, it is much, much much much, easier than single. If you want proof, go to the SLK barfathon server, there's a guy in there named Elite, he is good with a staff. Another thing is that throws can kill in one hit, I've almost got this down, it's extremely annoying(for the dead person). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 "Nerfing" for sabers is an utter non-issue as far as I'm concerned, because with a simple console command you can make attacks do as much damage as they did in JK2 1.02. Flip kicks are gone yes, but.... honestly, tough beans, you'll just have to learn a different playing style. Except for the Sabers Only Full Force CTF Sect, I would think the kick would be more of a "n00b friendly" move anyway.... because you never need to draw your saber in a battle, just keep kicking away! But that's just me. You can always hope it'll be added as an optional cvar in the patch or else make a mod to add it in from single player (yes, it's available in single player). A patch should be released to fix major bugs like the server bug that only displays a tiny fraction of the available servers, the rocket bug and some skin bugs. The "gameplay imbalances" sorry to say are mostly whining and as you saw with JK2, most of the changes they make will just cause more whining, they will NEVER please everybody. Remember a ton of people HATED 1.04 and refused to use it. Every patch had its detractors... I don't see how it will be any different this time around. And of course, we all know the reason the patch is delayed is because its up to LA to decide if and when one gets released. So Email Raven and LA and tell them how you feel, but don't be surprised if they repeat what I just said. : ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodRiot Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 I'd be surprised if they did answer at all. Raven can't say a word without LA saying OK first...and LA doesn't give a rat's @ss about your thought's of inbalance. Also I do agree with Kurgan... most of the imbalance comments are nothing more than whining. And I wouldn't find better words to describe the backlash of the unsatisfied players that get their game ruined by a patch as before. To be honest I used to find the single saber completely underpowered when i first played online... but i didn't whine about it...and ironically I ditched staff over single to try to prove to most of the people that complained about the single being overpowered that they were wrong... to my surprise.. they WERE wrong... Single DOES take longer to master cuz it doesn't have infinite combos or other similar things... but once controlled Single can stand up to any other saber. It has become my favorite saber. Nowadays I get owned if i try to play wiuth staff most of the times cuz I feel so limited and the only damn thing i can use to score a frag is the butterfly... the duals are a mistery to me as well... never did like that style very much either way so i didn't try it very much either. I do get fragged by people using staff and duals as well as fellow single saberists... i can only conclude all are evenly matched... you simply have to master the one you like best. It all comes down to the wielder and not the weapon. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Single is evenly matched against itself I have yet to meet a dual saberist of equal skill to me. And staff... well, a lot of times it's easy to be a staff user, but most suck. There are a few staff users who are VERY good, and staff does about 1.75x the damage of a yellow single saber strike, has more defense, and has infinite loops. Couple that against the fact that it's almost impossible to hit it with anything besides red, and you have a problem. That problem is that when running backwards you run slowly, when running away forwards you have an open back. Someone skilled with staff can beat almost any single saberist. <SLK> BaRfAtHoN 3 has a few skilled staff users there, specifically one name Elite. To Kurgan: You're right, saber scale does help, but the BASE game needs to be balanced. More than 75% of the servers out there don't utilize this feature, and when they do utilize it, they use different levels, so it's hard to have a consistant gameplay experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManaMana Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 The game havent been out for so long yet, there isn't a really good user in all sabers... Only old JO players ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniaC Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Single saber Kicks A**. You just have to know the right counters and openings for the various moves(blue uppercut works marvels:) ), it has the most variety with the moves and styles. It is the hardest to use though(shouldn't it be?, 1 blade vs. 2) but it is more precise when you do hit. The trick is staying away from the staffers inbetween swings(f.y.i. yellow stance is best against staffers, but you should never use one style for more than 4 or 5 moves or they will find your weakness), the trick with dual sabers is blue(it has the best defense of the stances, and can strike blows inbetween the fast swings of dual. Wait for the twirls, jabs, and barriers and go in with the uppercut. Other single saberist are the hardest opponents I've fought with the fights lasting much longer on average. In ffa once again the uppercut works great on a group of people if you can get in there(good luck on the high saber damage servers, you'll get slaughtered), gotta love those katas to, hmmm lets see, single has three, staff has 1, and dual has that barrier(might as well put a sign on your back that says jab me;) ). Though I still do best with dual in true ffa, I like single for it's variety and the ability to strike the hit boxes better, I just have'nt seen frags racked up with it like I've seen with staff or dual, yet . In conclusion single rules, and if they made it any stronger, you would all suffer, muahaha. *edited* Yes I have tested yellow pretty extensively and I've found it to be less superior than JO. I've landed the cartwheel thingy only a few times, and you stand too long idlely after the move(I loved that move ). But, it has that new nifty kata which covers a larger area than the other two single katas(except in blue stance as soon as you go into kata, hold cruch forward and strike and end of kata, pretty nice combo if used correctly and timed right,{this can be done with dual as well by deactivating one blade while in twirl and apply the same technique. There are to many moves to go on and I'm not giving away all my strategies. think the game is balanced fine, except for the fact that the staffers look like they do just as much damage to themselves with opposite blade as the striking one, hence the staff jab. eniaC Darth Rosh's {R^S} Server - |24.26.141.235| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 You can't run away from a staff user while open, they run faster. You're running backwards and you have a red swing going on, for those reasons you run much more slowly that they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniaC Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 I never said run, I said stay way (jump, croch, roll) eniaC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Shaft Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 After many months of reading about it, discussing it, etc.. i've just decided that the saber discussion is just simply dead. No one plays the same game anymore. JO/JA is simply too 'subjective' in every sense of the word. There are servers that love low damage, because they don't care for anything simulating a 'deadly' sword fight, while others would prefer just that (such as myself). I simply don't even like to entertain the idea of people surviving a single, well placed saber swing, though I usually tolerate up to 2 with most swings, and up to the 3 with the fast ones, though even then, it bothers me. Of course, what does it matter? In the end, JA is so hard to find a place where people are at peace with the game settings. Some people want to see sabers fly and don't like to pay for the mistakes in the fight... others want to play a game where almost only one mistake can be made. I'll come out and admit it now... I don't even have JA. I played JO extensively... i played the JA demo, and then i've been browsing the forums, just trying to see how things are playing out. So far, I'm on the tipping scale of buying the game finally and joining in the 'fun'. I do this only because I see people posting the server types out there, like Sokar, of course also Kaia, who runs an excellent server (i'd played forcemod2 a bit there, but got caught up in other things), and amidalachopshop seems to 'cater' to my needs as well as kurgan. anyone that's got a quick death, use your wits and your smarts to avoid being slammed to the ground, something closer to the adrenaline rush of 'reality', i like it. So the fact that there are like minded people out there make me want to go and take the plunge and get the stupid thing. But back to my point. Saber damage smaber damage. Look, we're never going to reach a consensus. I want my sword to be A SWORD... you want yours to be a 'balanced' game of tournament style fighting. First to 3 points. I hate that style. We might as well just stop complaining about it I guess. Just get our bug fixes and be on our seperate ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 You make a good point Doc, there are a lot of people out there and we all have different preferences. A lot of people don't even realize just how customizable JA and JK2 really are. The trouble is finding a server that meets your needs. However, with ASE and Qtracker you can see over 500 servers. Surely one or two of them will have settings you like. We'll never have a community that's perfectly united in agreement about what's the "best" or "most fun" way to play JA. Some people will always prefer dueling, while others will always prefer team games and others FFA. Some will hold to their honor codes, while others prefer to play a competative game with no rules beyond what the server sets. And a small minority would rather Role Play than fight. And some mods will be liked more than others, while others will shun mods altogether. But that doesn't have to be a weakness.. it can be a strength. The community is made up of all kinds of people because the game offers so many options. So long as there is one server out there that has the settings you want, you should be okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Umm.. been thinking... do we "deserve" a patch. Think about it, id like one, but think about how many people have acted. Raven is probably sick of hearing are complaints, back when they did talk to us about what was happening was when half the community was complaining about it. Look at JKII, it split, half of the community like the "honor code" and the other half didnt, which made Raven have to choose sides for JA (which isnt easy, because they knew whoever didnt get all the stuff they wanted would complain) the proof is in the forums think about JKII, half the community wanted a patch, Raven took there ideas, then made the patch based on what the community wanted, then the communty didnt like it, and basically spat in Raven's face. Remember, they arent paid to make a patch (or... we arent paying for it) The patch shouldnt bother with all this crap... Heres what i suggest: Fix the ATI card problems Fix the server bug Fix the skin bug Fix the CD bug (you know for people who couldnt play, because the system wouldnt accept Disk 1, because of LA's CD security thing) And any other bugs... If all they do is fix the bugs, who can complain? In fact, i bet they would get thanked by the people experiencing these errors! The rest of the people, can go get a refund. Why do they release modding/mapping/scripting tools? So if you dont like something, you change it, and quit complaining! Id like other stuff, but someone else doesnt like what i like, and in the end, the game dies and no one plays it because we are all being selfish, and quit the game when we dont get what we want! Not all people, just some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 the thing is there ARE mod teams ready to get to work. Now what are these mod teams going to do? Put in emotes? purple and neon pink sabers with 47 foot tall yoda models? Nope, well I'm sure we will see that but the =X= mod team and the red slushie (yeah that is their name) mod team are going to work on the game play issues. Raven just needs to fix the browser issue and those various hardware issues that have been listed many times. To hell with game play changes, no one is going to be happy so just leave base game play alone for those who are happy now and those of us who are not will get our fix via mods. The key to that is the mp SDK being released. And right now, looking at number of players who are online playing this game at any given time, well, it looks more like the number of people who would be playing a 3 year old game rather than one that is only 30+ days old. Things are going down hill pretty fast, many people think there are very few servers running (browser problem) and many others just do not like the game play but would be willing to give things a second shot through a mod. Problem is, if neither a patch or the SDK (or at least an official word on either) is going to be released any time soon, with many new big name games about to come out, it's going to pretty much kill any hope this game has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniaC Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 The game is a beautiful piece of work, as stated previously, but rarely. These guys I'm sure put alot of work into how they beliaved the game should be balanced, and seriously who are we to question them? The maps are beautiful (like having my own zen garden online) It's Mod friendly (Including JO mods) Siege (sweet, objective based combat) could go on... But the fact remains, just like FK | Unnamed stated, there is alot of games due around the corner(Halo, HalfLife, unreal for FPS'ers and FFXI and Middle Earth Online for RPG'ers and others like Junk Metal and VTM:Bloodlines), there might not be that many folks sitting around for the game to improve(except me), and the only thing I dislike are people not being able to find servers and the stupid argument of honors and the meaning of ffa. eniaC shock1Darth Rosh's {R^S} Server |24.26.141.235|shock1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Originally posted by FK | unnamed Raven just needs to fix the browser issue and those various hardware issues that have been listed many times. To me, this is the single biggest issue in JA today. Originally posted by FK | unnamed To hell with game play changes, no one is going to be happy so just leave base game play alone for those who are happy now and those of us who are not will get our fix via mods. I think this is the best way to cater to everyone. Originally posted by FK | unnamed Things are going down hill pretty fast, many people think there are very few servers running (browser problem) This is so true. The longer the delay, the worse the problem gets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Well, there have been a gigantic number of complaints, here, and i think i saw something on the ravensoft forum. So naturally, anyone who is thinking about buying the game would probably use a search enginge and find this forum, hear the complaints and decide not to buy it... I agree the broswer problem first... The problems that prevent people from playing the game should be fixed... and thats all. (i personnally would like a new siege map, but the in game problems need to be fixed first) we can wait for the community for siege maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpartaZx Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 JK3 got owned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamline Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Ryuken wrote: ..hell, has anyone actually tested yellow stance properly? Beyond making sure that it still showed up in the saber attack cycle? Probably not. Staff single medium and single saber medium are not very similar. The damage has been ramped up for staff medium, and the default swing is a horizontal right-to-left. Collision detection has been improved, and with it the undocumented feature of random invisible saber collision detection, where you will suddenly make contact with a saber that simply dosent exist. One thing they do have in common is the deflection rate, which remains consistant vs. all stances (including itself). With a horizontal or angled right to left swing, there is a 90% chance you will be deflected. This was a property of "the new" medium stance introduced in 1.03. 5 minutes of play testing medium would have revealed this irrational characteristic. The block/parry logistics for single medium vs. single strong are (and have been) fundamentally flawed. If im swinging a sword at your head at any angle from (my) left to right the only way to maintain a solid neck to head relationship would be to swing from the same direction at the opposite angle. Unfortunately, this isnt the case when it comes to medium vs. strong. The player using medium and executing what the thinking population would expect to be the correct swing to block or parry is either: a) deflected, taking a fair amount of damage, or b) dismayed by the implementation of "now you see it, now you don't" ghoul2 collision detection in multiplayer. What leads me to believe that this is a logical error as opposed to a bug is that by swinging from both the opposite direction and angle, there is a 100% chance you will stop the swing and not take a single point of damage (but you will more than likely be deflected, of course, and killed by the chained swing). Given the very frightening lack of imagination some strong stance users showcase by executing the same left-to-right 3 swing chain over and over, (not to mention the nerve of accusing everyone else of spamming) and the only effective counter being a swing in a direction that defies common sense, what you eventually end up with is an unintentional imbalance amongst the single saber stances (if you will). With most of the issues here having been introduced with the first patch for the last version of the game, and not having been fixed in the second patch for the last version of the game, and making it all the way into the latest version of the game, the answer to your question should be obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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