IG-64 Posted October 28, 2003 Author Share Posted October 28, 2003 Sure it would be great if every game was revolutionary, but this just isn't possible. hmm, that sux, i wish they would at least make one though, just for the fans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by babywax They shouldn't create a new engine. They should USE a new engine, something like source (please not the doom 3 engine, I don't want to be fighting 1-3 enemies at a time, no matter how good they look). The source engine would be so cool, think about gripping stuff and moving it around (like the gravity gun). All the physics and rag doll (both Havok 2 I believe? Havok 2 can be seen in Max Payne 2). I don't know much about their physics, but if they are as advanced as they seem, I would bet that with some modifications you could code in lightsabers. The main reason the quake 3 engine is old for this (IMO), is not graphics, they look fine to me, what I have a problem with is hitting an enemy but not doing damage. I think the saber combat system needs an overhaul. Think about how cool it would be to actually control the saber with your mouse! Please raven, consider using source or some newer technology to make hit detection and the saber system better! talk about knowing 0 about the subject. the doom3 engine is being used for quake 4. the # of players is easy enough to change in the engine. ja physics are not really that advanced dude... use the mouse to control your saber? what do you use to look around then? please bring actual thought out arguments to the table than this blathering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IG-64 Posted October 28, 2003 Author Share Posted October 28, 2003 in my poor dreams i see the big-time developers making the engine to end all engines, the one ring, the one that is used for a long time untill, way in the future someone (possibly like me:p) complains about it being overused... one that has physics and graphics and tools for animation and stuff like that that will never happen so it can be used and respected, for generations to come! One that is perfect to todays technolgy standards! that can be in all great games, PC and console alike!........................... but that will never happen exept in my pethetic dreams oh well! USA flags intended for drama only, no particular simbolic reasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeto101 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 haha holy crap, i offended someone who plays the sims!!! My humble apologies, i didnt think id find anyone here who played them (and i understand the game perfectly, it aint hard to understand. i just happen not to like playin a soap opera of a video game, lots of people may, thats true) but more adults playin the sims then kids, haha bull****, the analagy i used is perfect, its the pop star of gaming, the majority of the comunitee is younger players. Why the heck do you think it sells so well? Its cause its tappin a part of the market not usually tapped by videogames. Now back on topic. First of all, no one knows when the hell half life 2 is bein released. It could be the end of next month (doubtfully) it could be before christmas, no one bloody knows,it changes daily, people need to get off valve's back and wait friggin patiently. (not flamin anyone here, just general ranting) Now, im not sayin the developers are lazy, cause i dont really think raven has too much control over their choice of engine. Lucasarts wanted a game in this period of time and thats all raven could do. Im arguing that all their doin is floodin the market with mediocre starwars games simply to make money. They could have done a much better job on JA then they did, that much is, in my opinion (which is what all this discussion is basically a battle of, opinions) a fact. I mean come on, they added a few new levels, saber moves and some new models,, then they leave us hangin for over a month with no patch for major graphics card issues???? Seems a little bogus to me, like they just produced a game, collected the money then left us out to dry. Noowww onto the engine issues. Look at how long games that are considered classics are in development for. Years and Years. And isnt a classic game better then a mediocre one anyday?? I mean, face it, JA will last a year maybe a year and a half before most of its comunitee dissapears. Its simply not as classic as Half life, Quake, UT, Baulders Gate, Diablo, Starcraft etc etc. All these games have incredible followings because of the way the games were designed and the time and effort put into them. What does JA have to keep us around?? THE STARWARS LISCENCE. Thats it. It has sabers. If this was some run of the mill medival game we would split in a couple weeks. Nowwwww, go with me into a perfect world, raven and lucas do the unthinkable and actually put some time into a starwars game(although they did excellent jobs on JK, tie fighter, KOTOR and a few more). The starwars liscence mixed with a totally new engine developed especially for the starwars universe would be nuts. We could have movie realistic gameplay mixed with awesome graphics and physics annddd perphaps even space combat (i.e xwing). Now, that game would have an incredibly long life, draw a huggee fanbase and would have great gameplay all at the same time. Buuttt such is my fantasy. Meh ive rambled for wayy to long. haha its all a matter of opinions in the end anyways, and i do see both sides of the story, and totally acknowledge prime and crew's viewpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g//anarki Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 In any case, I don't see the point in arguing over this right now. The game's done in a modified version of the Quake3 engine and that won't change. It's been said that the next Jedi Knight game will be on a different engine, so just wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeto101 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 haha too true. too true. Hmmm i wonder, how could they possibly do a movie like system where sabers clash all the time though? It seems pretty i dunno, hard to do. havnt seen a game thats been able to do it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiaSowapit Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 I think Raven should come up with a cure for cancer while they're at it too - and in time for Christmas!!! Honestly, if you don't mind waiting for an "improved" engine... then save your pennies and stayed tuned for Super Jedi Academy IIXXV, scheduled for release 3rd quarter 2057. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IG-64 Posted October 28, 2003 Author Share Posted October 28, 2003 i guess half life 2 is the closest we can get right now, maybe raven can scrape up money and time to buy that baby and learn how to use it, it would probobly make the graphics better and put some cool physics stuff in(i can't wait:D) but i would still like some good saber duals. btw. current sceduled release date for Half Life 2: November 28 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 ig64 - run out of amazing cheats to dazzle us with ?? MAKE PRIME AN ADMIN !! - This former robot/now wizard quite easily creates the most mature and well-thought posts I've ever read anywhere - Bravo ! Quake 3 engine...... JO,JA and the elite force games are the only FPS games I have the time/inclination to play. Ive had a lot of fun playing them. I'm not one of those guys who squints at the monitor and counts how many pixels are out of place on the left side of a saber flash... F**K THAT !! To those who say crap like, "I'd rather wait 5 years to get the game with a new engine", you are perhaps forgetting that what drives EVERYTHING is money, read it again just in case you missed it : MONEY !! Lucasarts released JO, which did amazingly well, what a lovely chance to make some $$$ by releasing a sequel a year later. But, of course, they take some polls, read some feedback and make JA more action oriented, taking out the 'puzzle' element that annoyed so many(including me) in JA. I dont think I'm 'dumb' when it comes to gaming, my fave game genre is RPG, ane I loved the MYST series, so I am no stranger to that side of things. But when it is FPS, you have a lightsaber in your hand, and the star wars music is blazing, you just wanna wreak havoc, not sit there and solve some freakin' color puzzle !!!!! On thing that is inevitable, is that as computer/gaming systems develop, so will the game engines..... Yeah, sure something that looks and plays better will come out one day, but for TODAY I am happy to play JA via q3 and have a cool time doing so.... **anyone want to start a countdown for JKIV, coming to a store near you in 2006........................** Yep, lets just sit and WAIT ! Also, for ppl who say rubbish like : "the programmers are LAZY!" No they are not, otherwise all FPS games would still look like old skool wolftenstein...... ig64...why'd you start this thread man !?? I'd much rather have you reveal "How to make a mutant rancor use forcelightning through his nostrils" ......what was that console command again...... MTFBWYA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IG-64 Posted October 28, 2003 Author Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by Astrotoy7 ig64 - run out of amazing cheats to dazzle us with ?? Quake 3 engine...... JO,JA and the elite force games are the only FPS games I have the time/inclination to play. Ive had a lot of fun playing them. I'm not one of those guys who squints at the monitor and counts how many pixels are out of place on the left side of a saber flash... F**K THAT !! To those who say crap like, "I'd rather wait 5 years to get the game with a new engine", you are perhaps forgetting that what drives EVERYTHING is money, read it again just in case you missed it : MONEY !! Lucasarts released JO, which did amazingly well, what a lovely chance to make some $$$ by releasing a sequel a year later. But, of course, they take some polls, read some feedback and make JA more action oriented, taking out the 'puzzle' element that annoyed so many(including me) in JA. I dont think I'm 'dumb' when it comes to gaming, my fave game genre is RPG, ane I loved the MYST series, so I am no stranger to that side of things. But when it is FPS, you have a lightsaber in your hand, and the star wars music is blazing, you just wanna wreak havoc, not sit there and solve some freakin' color puzzle !!!!! On thing that is inevitable, is that as computer/gaming systems develop, so will the game engines..... Yeah, sure something that looks and plays better will come out one day, but for TODAY I am happy to play JA via q3 and have a cool time doing so.... **anyone want to start a countdown for JKIV, coming to a store near you in 2006........................** Yep, lets just sit and WAIT ! Also, for ppl who say rubbish like : No they are not, otherwise all FPS games would still look like old skool wolftenstein...... ig64...why'd you start this thread man !?? MTFBWYA sadly, yes, i have been slacking but what i'm saying with this thread is that if they make one big game maybe they would make lots of money. i mean, waht makes more money? Lord of the Rings or Legally Blonde 2? btw i'm still serching the wide world of the in-game console but, hey, haven't i dazzeled you enough already??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by ig64 btw. current sceduled release date for Half Life 2: November 28 2003 It appears that nobody knows the release date... USA Today: 'Half-Life 2' game release date still uncertain I'm not getting the game, so it doesn't really matter to me. I just don't want you going to the store on November 28th and being disappointed... Originally posted by Astrotoy7 MAKE PRIME AN ADMIN !! - This former robot/now wizard quite easily creates the most mature and well-thought posts I've ever read anywhere - Bravo ! Thanks for the sentiment I try to be polite and talk about issues I know about, but I still find myself flaming from time to time. Originally posted by ig64 sadly, yes, i have been slacking but what i'm saying with this thread is that if they make one big game maybe they would make lots of money. i mean, waht makes more money? Lord of the Rings or Legally Blonde 2? But again, if you spend twice the money, you are not garrunteed twice the sales, especially in the video game market. You will likely make more, but not double. Because of this, business-wise it may be foolish to spend twice the money because you are proportionally going to recoup less per investment dollar. Even if you did did get twice the profits for twice the money invested, likely you have also spent twice the time developing it. So now you have only developed one game when you could have made two. If you made twice the money, you come out with exactly the same profit as you would had you made two smaller games that made half the profit of the big game. But since you don't get twice the profits for twice the money spent, you will likely end up making less money than you would have if you had developed two smaller games for the same total time and money. As for you movie comparison, I know what you are saying, but that is sort of apple and oranges. Things like people paying to see the movie multiple times make it an imperfect comparison to video game sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 HL used the Quake2 engine, not the Quake engine. And I don't think Raven did the improving. JA used the same modified Quake3 engine as EF2. Tired well worn argument (and I agree with you), they started with the Quake 1 engine, but they "upgraded" (as many projects did when Q2 came out) to the Quake2 engine. Regardless of how much actual Q2 or Q1 code was "left" at the end (very little in either case) they did use the Quake2 engine to finish HL and you can read this is plenty of reviews. Yet the impression still exists on the internet with enough people that HL is a "quake 1" engine game, which (if true) would make their argument in favor of new engines for every game even more silly. The fact is people are still playing HL which uses technology from 1998. In other words, new engine doesn't necessarily equal better game. Perhaps these folks read a review saying it was "Quake tech" and misunderstood? Because people often refer to "Unreal tech" these days, when in reality they meant the Unreal 2 engine. (Now I'm just asking here, don't jump on me yet! ; ) Is that a fact about JA using the EF2 engine? Because Elite Force 2 was made by another company. Both games use the Quake 3 Team Arena engine (as did Jedi Outcast) but only in that vague sense do I agree (unless you know something I don't). I have only played the EF2 demo, but many people say that the graphics are "better" than in JA (I couldn't really tell, maybe my computer just isn't spiffy enough or I didn't see the better looking levels), they certainly don't have the same animations and features etc or gameplay. You could argue that JA is just an "upgrade" of Jedi Outcast, well what do you expect? Raven made JK2 from the ground up (starting with the Q3TA engine as their base) and simply evolved and polished it for JA. Now before you get all cynical on me and say "ha, it was a downgrade" and "polished? lol" remember that every time you add new features you have to fine tune and debug every single thing and you may break old features. No game is bug free. And blah blah blah we all wish a patch would come out to fix the bugs, but lay that one at LA's door. As has been pointed out, Raven seems like a fine and competent gaming company, but this is only the second time they've worked for LA and we know how they can be.... And good points about Half Life 2 and Doom3. You can't really expect JA to use those engines because they aren't even out yet (and may not be until next year). Unreal 2 is fairly recent, remember JA development started almost as soon as JK2 was finished. They'd still be working on the game if they'd used that engine, and people would still be arguing that "JA will flop because it will have to compete with Doom3 and HL2 which will be huge hype monsters." My comments about "new engines" was directed at people that are demanding new engines, because their primary desire is for "better graphics" and better graphics require better hardware, simply put, to get higher level of detail with similar performance. That's the thing with JA though.. the graphics ARE better than JK2, and they can run at similar speeds on similar hardware, but (as we know, though the next patch may change this) if you crank all the settings to max and turn on everything you'll get poor performance compared to JK2. So at max JA SHOULD look better than JK2 and should require better hardware for equal performance. I'm running JA at similar speeds to JK2 and it only looks incrementally better, but that's fine by me because the gameplay is much improved (IMHO) and I can't afford a major system upgrade right now. But the biggest thing we get with each new FPS engine is more eye candy. That's the primary reason people are demanding new engines, so that's what my comments were about. Sorry for any confusion.... As to "why rush" I say that because companies have to release product in order to make money to stay in business. Do you think Id software is just sitting on their heinies with nothing to do but work on Doom3? No! They're making money hand over fist by renting out their engine to half the FPS game companies out there and making a killing off it. This in turn gives them the cash they would normally have to make by releasing a new game every year. Valve apparently makes money off of selling mods that people in their mod community created. Though sometimes I wonder how they can stay afloat... must be a lot of cash or else they have some alternative means of funding. 3DRealms hasn't released DukeNukemForever yet, and it's been what.. 5 years? Still they're obviously staying afloat from all the Duke Nukem games they've liscensed out over the years for consoles or whatever (and that recent valusoft tie in). Raven doesn't have that luxury. They have to release hit after hit or they're going under. That is why their games are "short" and they have such "short" dev cycles. That's why they use engines created by other companies and that's why they get bitched at by people for not using "the latest technology" and not having bug free products every time. So yes, we'd all love to have to wait 10 years and get a perfect game, but that's not going to happen unless the company is so rich they can afford to wait around and take their sweet time. Well that brings up another point.... if you wait a long long time, the engine you're using is just going to be dated anyway (even if you make it yourself) so long dev cycles have that problem as well. As long as people are more concerned about the engine itself you're going to have that bit of whining. I think the important thing to realize here is that companies like Id Software are in the business of making generic engines to liscense out. They're making tech (anymore) not games. Companies like Raven take the tech and make a game out of it, because it's simply more cost effective for them than to start from scratch with each new game. I bet you anything if they couldn't use Quake tech or Unreal Tech or some other engine they'd be recycling their own engines over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IG-64 Posted October 28, 2003 Author Share Posted October 28, 2003 I just don't want you going to the store on November 28th and being disappointed... well, i don't really care all that much, i just wanted to get it because it has a really cool engine btw i got that from eb games website, their usually right about their release dates and update them often so don't worry about me rushing down to the store:p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 A new or 'modern' game engine, developed in-house or 'bought-in' does not assure a good quality game. Let's make no bones about this. Don't believe me? Unreal 2. Used a build of the Unreal engine. Great graphics. Mediocre gameplay. It's not a bad game...but it's not a revolutionary game either. Devastation. Used a build of the Unreal engine. The graphics weren't really up to par with other Unreal engine games. Bugs in AI etc., led again to mediocre SP gameplay. I tried the MP demo...and it was certainly better. But then - the Unreal engine excels at MP gameplay, if the levels are designed correctly. New World Order. Used an in-house engine. Very nice looking graphics. Gameplay with 'issues' - some dodgy character movement for starters. Seems to have sunk without trace in deep water somewhere off Great Gamer Banks... Chrome. Very nice engine - again developed in-house. Tried the demo...and due to super-accurate AI that can shoot the eye off a cricket at a 1000 yards (and is always aware of exactly where you are, by seemingly looking through solid walls or terrain), the game is not exactly enjoyable. Chaser. Another game using it's own very pretty in-house engine. I tried the demo, and that was enough. The gameplay seems to be based on 'spawn city', where you take a step, and suddenly an enemy spawns in where there wasn't one before. You know that because you were just in that particular position... Those are all just my own opinions of these titles, of course. But in my view, the games were developed on brand new or modern engines, and their gameplay leaves a lot to be desired. Great graphics do not make great games. I don't care how many whizz-bang features and effects an engine has...if the gameplay is rubbish, the game is rubbish. Everyone is so hyped up about Doom 3 and Half-Life 2...and the longer you wait, the more you expect from these games. In the end, though...I doubt they will meet people's expectations. Hype is a bad thing, and leads to all kinds of confusion. Just because Id and Valve made some great games in the past...doesn't mean they can pull it off every time. They could make the best ever game engines...but if they don't back it up with great gameplay it's all rather pointless. If the games take 3 hours to play through...that's pointless as well. Personally, I'd rather have a developer who knows how to make a good game with the tech available, rather than wait forever listening to promises and hype, googling at 1337 graphics and twiddling my thumbs. As a counter-point to the above...I've been playing Mace Griffin Bounty Hunter. They developed their own engine for that, to make seamless transitions from space-based combat to FPS. They did a good job with it, and in parts it hints at what a Star Wars title could be...while in others it shows where it could have used more work, and falls short of some of it's promise. Nevertheless, it's an enjoyable game. As for the Quake 3 tech...yes, it's showing it's age. And I don't know of many more developers who are going to continue using it. The only game in development at the moment that I can think of is Trinity, which is being developed by Grey Matter (the same ones who made Return To Castle Wolfenstein). I can't think of any other games that will be using Q3, at the moment. So yes, it's probably time to move on...and use the newer engines out there, like the latest Unreal builds, or Source, or whatever. Raven will undoubtedly use the new Doom tech in their new games, because they have a long-standing relationship with Id Software. In my view, Id makes the engines...Raven makes the games. There are other potential engines out there...the ones being used to develop STALKER, or Far Cry. Both show considerable promise - but again, the gameplay is relatively untested until the games are released. Maybe they'll be another couple of also-rans, all pretty graphics and little else. I hope not...but I don't rule it out as a possibility. All the above is not to say that I'm defending JA. Although I like the game a lot...I can see where more time and effort (if it had been possible within budget constraints) could have made the game really shine. It needed a bit more fleshing out...a bit more depth and polish. But still...in terms of gameplay it outshines some of those other titles I mentioned above. And that's to be applauded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g//anarki Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Kurgan: most of your points here are correct. Originally posted by Kurgan Is that a fact about JA using the EF2 engine? Because Elite Force 2 was made by another company. Both games use the Quake 3 Team Arena engine (as did Jedi Outcast) but only in that vague sense do I agree (unless you know something I don't). I have only played the EF2 demo, but many people say that the graphics are "better" than in JA (I couldn't really tell, maybe my computer just isn't spiffy enough or I didn't see the better looking levels), they certainly don't have the same animations and features etc or gameplay. I think it was said at one point that EF2 and JA would be using the same modified engine. The graphics (as in artwork) may look more polished in EF2 but it also looks a little cartoon-ish, giving it a better look than JA. The poly limit should be the same, though. And good points about Half Life 2 and Doom3. You can't really expect JA to use those engines because they aren't even out yet (and may not be until next year). You're sort-of right on this but... you can expect that as Raven is currently using the DOOM3 engine for Quake IV. But, at the time when JA started development, the engine wasn't out. That's the thing with JA though.. the graphics ARE better than JK2, and they can run at similar speeds on similar hardware, but (as we know, though the next patch may change this) if you crank all the settings to max and turn on everything you'll get poor performance compared to JK2. So at max JA SHOULD look better than JK2 and should require better hardware for equal performance. For some reason, I get better performance in JA with graphics maxed out than JK2 and I haven't upgraded my hardware. Do you think Id software is just sitting on their heinies with nothing to do but work on Doom3? No! They're making money hand over fist by renting out their engine to half the FPS game companies out there and making a killing off it. This in turn gives them the cash they would normally have to make by releasing a new game every year. So true... That's why I <3 ID. They supply us with all our engines. Epic too. If not for the different versions of the the Unreal engine, Epic would probably be poor. Valve apparently makes money off of selling mods that people in their mod community created. Though sometimes I wonder how they can stay afloat... must be a lot of cash or else they have some alternative means of funding. So true... Pretty sad how they make their money. Think Counter-Strike... And soon a StarSiege mod for Tribes:Vengeance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiaSowapit Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by StormHammer Great graphics do not make great games. I don't care how many whizz-bang features and effects an engine has...if the gameplay is rubbish, the game is rubbish. Amen brother. Personally, I'd like to see a game that focuses at least as much energy on story development and gameplay as spiffy graphics. Some of the newer games appear to be little more than an excuse to get us to buy new hardware. Instead of demanding bleeding-edge technology to drive the game, how about challenging us to think and feel? Eye candy is fine and dandy, but I'd like more for my $$$ than simply more window dressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedimasteranth Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Hey While i kind of agree that JA wasnt advanced as i would like, its still a great game. The Quake 3 engine is still good but showing its age. In response to the "Spend more time and its a better game" idea. One word for you Daikatana. Sh*ttest game that was raved about and raved about. It was suposta be out in what? 1998? it came out in what 2001? The game sucked ass.. Just cuz they spend more time on something doesnt make it better. Half life came out in 1999 HL2 is coming out in 2004 MAYBE. thats 5 years. I'm still waiting for TF2 as well.... JA came with 3 saber types ... New maps better story line... better saber play (SP ...Mp play need to be patched) and a whole new online way of fighting. SEIGE! SEIGE ROCKS! Oh one more thing I love max payne 2 but its the same deal as JA its just squel the engine is just developed a little better... Ohhh big deal. More time doesnt mean better game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IG-64 Posted October 29, 2003 Author Share Posted October 29, 2003 I just wish that the super nintendo gameplay (great stuff ) would marry with todays graphics. wow, what a game that would be oh, sorry, i was dreaming:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 The Unstoppable KURGAN said, I have only played the EF2 demo, but many people say that the graphics are "better" than in JA (I couldn't really tell, maybe my computer just isn't spiffy enough or I didn't see the better looking levels), they certainly don't have the same animations and features etc or gameplay. It is silly to say EF2 graphics looks better. (I have the full version of EF2 and play it now and again, and love it, but couldnt play it over and over like JA.) EF2 is in first person view, naturally the fps is higher, things move a bit quicker, just like when you go into first person mode in JA. You can go into 3rd person mode in EF2 through a console command but the character animation is silly, the way 'Munro" runs is hilarious, he runs like Natalie Portman in AOTC! Hence the comparisons should only be made for first person perspectives, and in that sense they are quite comparable... but in 3rd person, the wonderful character models and animations, JA is brilliant in this respect... Thx to Stormie and Kurgan for those great posts(above) i'm all 'schooled up' about FPS now ! MTFBWYA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Originally posted by jedimasteranth In response to the "Spend more time and its a better game" idea. One word for you Daikatana. Sh*ttest game that was raved about and raved about. It was suposta be out in what? 1998? it came out in what 2001? The game sucked ass.. Just cuz they spend more time on something doesnt make it better. Yes, you're right. Spending more time on making a game doesn't necessarily make it better. I made a basic assumption that the developer was properly 'geared up' for such an undertaking - and perhaps that highlights another issue. Sometimes a project is a little bit too ambitious...or the appropriate team direction and motivation is lacking. And there is always the possibility that some of the development team are simply out of their depth, and not up to the task at hand. Some developers rely on tried and tested formulas instead of trying to innovate, and be more creative in the game design. As for Daikatana...have you actually played the full SP game, from start to finish? I have. And in my view, most of the problems with the game really came down to (a) bugs, (b) poor animation and © the age and 'look' of the engine. Other than that, the level design was good, and the story/plot was actually a great deal more interesting than some of the recent titles churned out. Daikatana was simply hyped out of all proportion, and ended up being a standard shooter with obvious 'issues'. However, it didn't really deserve the complete slating it received in the gaming press - most of whom only played the first couple of levels, because all they went on about was loads of mechanical frogs. The game got better as it went along - and even had some RPG-lite elements. The key point is that the age of the engine didn't really matter to me. I accepted the graphics for what they were, and concentrated on the gameplay. And apart from the bugs, the gameplay was actually not too bad. Because it didn't live up to the hype, it was thrown to the wolves. If it had never been hyped at all...I don't think there would have been so much ill-feeling about it. And when you think about it...a lot of those hyping the game were the gaming press themselves. They expected too much from the game, and hyped it and hyped it until it couldn't live up to their own expectations. So they killed it...and made it appear 'uncool' for anyone to like it. If it had been built on the Unreal engine, and there had been few noticeable bugs and better animation...it would probably have been praised as the best thing since sliced bread. At the end of the day, though...John Romero was rightly blamed for the game's flaws. He was in charge...so the buck stops with him. Of course...that's all IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 I would like to point some things out. (Refering more to earlier posts) Compare Elite Force with Jedi Academy...would you rather have an Elite Force with great graphics, or Jedi Academy with passable Unreal 2 level graphics? Jedi Academy has many more features than what Elite Force had...much larger environments as well. Since Raven has worked with the Quake III engine so long, they can do a lot more with it then they could when they made Elite Force. If they moved to a new engine, they'd have to work with it longer then they did with Elite Force, to get what is in Jedi Academy. Also, while I'm at it, I should tell you what technology is behind Jedi Academy. Jedi Academy uses a modified version of the Quake III Team Arena engine...all its modifications are Raven made. Its technology comes from Elite Force, Jedi Knight II, Soldier of Fortune II, and there's much new technology that Raven created for Jedi Academy. Jedi Academy did not use the same modified Quake III engine as Elite Force 2. I would now like to point out some games...these are examples of what can happen if a developer tries making it's own engine. Obi-Wan and Trespasser come to mind. Obi-Wan was going to be a sort of sequel to Jedi Knight...it was going to have great graphics and amazing physics, huge worlds, complex game dynamics, great new multiplayer modes. Look at what it turned out to be...a mediocre Xbox game with graphics that could barely compete with games released at the same time as it...is this really what you want Jedi Academy to be? Now let's look at Trespasser...a game that was going to have huge environments, incredibly smart Dinosaurs, amazing physics, very complex and realistic game dynamics, amazing animation that would use special blending technology (does this sound familiar? *cough*Half Life 2*cough*), Amazing graphics with huge polygon counts...oh, and this came out in 1998. Yes, it did have great graphics at the time...but it still sucked. Because of its poor ability at using hardware acceleration, no one could run the game at acceptable speeds, even on the lowest detail level, unless they had the absolute top of the line hardware. Even then the gameplay was terrible, and the game quickly died and manufacture of copies of the game ceased very quickly, after it got scores as low as 35%. Is this really what you want Jedi Academy to be? Now give these points some deep serious thought and see if it would really have paid off for Jedi Academy to be on a different engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Gabrobot Now give these points some deep serious thought and see if it would really have paid off for Jedi Academy to be on a different engine. It certainly couldn't have been pulled off in the same timeframe. It would probably be another couple of years before we saw such a game. Frankly, I'm very happy to be able to play JA in the meantime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IG-64 Posted October 31, 2003 Author Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Astrotoy7 ig64...why'd you start this thread man !?? IV'E CREATED A MONSTER!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 talk about knowing 0 about the subject. the doom3 engine is being used for quake 4. the # of players is easy enough to change in the engine. ja physics are not really that advanced dude... use the mouse to control your saber? what do you use to look around then? please bring actual thought out arguments to the table than this blathering. Addressing the "use your mouse to control your saber" comment, you won't look around. You decide to either attack and control your saber or look around and move, in real life people don't go running around strafing and swinging swords, fencing doesn't work like that. Id software is making doom 3 and quake 4, you think John Carmack is not going to edit the engine to make it less detailed, so it can perform better? It has been stated in multiple articles that what I said was true. I would honestly expect more from someone who is from Tennessee, as I am from there. The Crytek engine looks good also (see Far Cry). If their physics are as good as they boast, and their engine doesn't seem to cost too much, I thought I saw a figure of 800 euro's somewhere. That engine is already out, and can already be purchased, there just aren't any games out that use it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Another game that used a brand new engine (at the time) developed-in house that took years to release and ended up a flop.. Star Wars: Obi-Wan (Formerly "Star Wars Episode I: Obi-Wan). Remember it started sometime in 1999 and wasn't released until the first generation of Xbox titles (was originally slated for the PC) and when it came out it was promptly forgotten (after a smattering of bad reviews that charaterized it as mediocre). Only a fraction of the promised features even made it into the finished game. So 'nuff said.... Diakatana for me was simply boring. Even though the patch fixed some bugs and let you save anywhere, it felt like a game from 1996 in terms of simplistic AI and gamplay. And unlike say Serious Sam, it didn't have the eye candy and "humor" to keep it interesting enough to play through. If it had come out a few years before it did, it might have been more successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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