Prime Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Originally posted by Tyler_Durden I don't think you quite understand me prime. What i propose is that when you move the mouse, let's say for instance you want to attack someone using an upward slash at a certain angle, the mouse would directly emulate that movement. It would not be a pre-set, pre-programmed move but instead no two swings would be the same. I really couldn't give you a visual example but i could liken it more to the way freelancer uses the mouse in flight. Another example would be blocking. Your opponent goes for a low attack he swings towards your right so to block this attack you would do a low counter-clockwise circular movement, the movement of the mouse would be emulated onscreen, this movement would block the attack. Ok i got it, your mouse pointer on screen would be tip of your saber, so lets say you move your mouse upwards, the pointer or in this case the tip of the saber would be towards the top of your screen. You then jiggle the mouse left and right, the saber would again follow your every movement, thus being more like an extension of your arms and giving greater freedom of movement as opposed to preset movements, in essense, the freedom of saber movement would only be limited by your imagination. I neat idea, but the issue I see is that you are trying to map movement in 3D space with the 2D movement of the mouse. If you have the tip of the saber follow the mouse, you can indicate up/down/left/right, but how do you specify forward and back? The game will have to guess where you are really pointing at. You may want to try and stab at something four feet away, but the game might think that you are pointing right in front of your face. JA solves this by allowing you to guide the saber swing in a 2D plain while it handles the other plain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rccar328 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 It's based on time and money. If they think they can do it faster and cheaper (will still living up to the previous installments) on one engine than another, they probably will do so. True, but I think that most (if not all) of us would prefer quality to quantity. I enjoyed JA, but it didn't come close to the quality of DFII as far as plot & character development goes. Let's face it - Jaden was a surface character that didn't quite fit into the central role of a JK game. They could also do so much more with graphics and gameplay than the Quake engine allows. Personally, I will be very hesitant to buy the next JK game if it comes out too soon. At the very least, I'd put off buying it until the price goes down to 15 bucks or so. I'd rather wait longer for a better quality game. I don't know if Raven would go for that, but I think it's safe to say that that's wat gamers want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druid_Allanon Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Tidus' proposal suggests that he wants JK4 to be an RPG game. However, not all of us like to do RPGing. From what Tidus has posted, he clearly assumed that all of us are RPG players. Sadly, this isn't the case. RPGing's fun, yeah, but not in the Jedi Knight series that isn't based on RPGing in Dark Forces, Outcast, and Academy. If JK4 becomes a RPG game, the player numbers will greatly decline. You want some Star Wars RPG games, go play Galaxies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabretooth Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Hmmm.... The druid's got a point there... How about realeasing JK4 as an FPS like Jedi Academy and releasing a parallel series of Star Wars RPG games? Star Wars Knights of the New Republic sounds good! or maybe... Star Wars Jedi Warrior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Originally posted by Druid Allanon Tidus' proposal suggests that he wants JK4 to be an RPG game. However, not all of us like to do RPGing. From what Tidus has posted, he clearly assumed that all of us are RPG players. Sadly, this isn't the case. RPGing's fun, yeah, but not in the Jedi Knight series that isn't based on RPGing in Dark Forces, Outcast, and Academy. If JK4 becomes a RPG game, the player numbers will greatly decline. You want some Star Wars RPG games, go play Galaxies. The Star Wars universe is big enough for a FPS, RPG and MMORPG. Let me explain: - Galaxies is a classic MMORPG. Plain and simple. - KotOR is a normal CRPG - not an 'action RPG' like Diablo, but somewhere between Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. - The Jedi Knight series, however, is problematic in that it is not a true FPS*. Since JK, it has been a mixed FPS & RPG-lite. So that makes things difficult. JK offered choice in force powers and a 'morality' scale for the light / dark path. Unfortunately, the implementation of the saber and powers was (IMO) pretty weak, and the light dark amounted to kill civilians or not. JKII, while offering tremendously useful force powers and saber, had basically no personal character development tree. JA is like a mix of the two. Your 'core' powers increase naturally, and you choose the rest based on your tendencies (although you only get a stat screen lecture if you choose all dark powers, the rest of the dialogue is fixed). Light dark is a one-shot - "You have reached the Jedi Path Hotline, press 1 for light or 2 for dark, thank you and may the force be with you" Many of us look to what Deus Ex had for skill progression and choice as a possible improvement in the FPS/RPG-lite genre. We would like to make some (but not all) dialogue choices, to have some say through our actions about our force path, and about what type of Jedi to be. Some of that isn't just RPG - although the implementation isn't trivial, wouldn't it be exciting to choose to play as a stealth Jedi (rewarded for few kills and alarms) or a gunner (again, limited saber kills) or a blade-master, or a Force-mage? But all of that is predicated on a FPS-first assumption. I love FPS. I also love RPG's - but for different reasons. The Jedi Knight series seems a great opportunity to push the FPS/RPG-lite genre. Mike *with the exception of Dark Forces, and that is unique by having an actual story with a real character for the protagonist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Originally posted by rccar328 I enjoyed JA, but it didn't come close to the quality of DFII as far as plot & character development goes. Let's face it - Jaden was a surface character that didn't quite fit into the central role of a JK game. To be fair, Kyle is a character than has been fleshed out over the course of several games, and has a concrete backstory. Jaden more or less can't have a back story because each player has their own Jaden. This difference inhibits the story, and isn't necessarily an indication of bad writing. Originally posted by txa1265 The Star Wars universe is big enough for a FPS, RPG and MMORPG. And I like it this way. I'd rather have different games that are true to different genres and do them well. Like you said, KOTOR is a crpg and does it well. It doesn't try to be a FPS or other genre. It is possible to incorporate elements from other genres, but they have to be careful not to overdo it. Trying to do everything usually means that they don't do one thing really well. Personally, I like having different Star Wars games that provide different experiences. I play the X-Wing series because it provides great space combat. I loved KOTOR because I do like RPGs and it delivered that in spades. I love the JK series for the FPS action. Wanting to play one genre doesn't exclude wanting to play others. I like the different games for different reasons. The fact I love KOTOR and enjoy the rpg aspects of it doesn't mean I think all those things should be in the JK series. I want JK to provide a fast-paced FPSing appeal, not tons of character development Let each game provide a different experience. Then I can play each game when the mood suits me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Originally posted by Prime The fact I love KOTOR and enjoy the rpg aspects of it doesn't mean I think all those things should be in the JK series. Absolutely agree! For example - party management and aiming. In a FPS, *I* do the killing - I don't like having to babysit anyone else, or wait for them or whatever. And I certainly don't want to have to worry about their tactics and what weapon they're choosing or how they feel about the pile of bodies I just left behind. Similarly, in an RPG I like to select my attacks and move on, watch things unfold, weigh the situation, then start again. An RPG is not the place to be popping head shots with an OICW like in SoFII. I want JK to provide a fast-paced FPSing appeal, not tons of character development Definitely FPS - but not necessarily fast paced. And while not too much character development, I'd stress character *choices* should be important. Given a flexible game system I can either roleplay or just run-n-gun. I can use stealth or kill-no-ask-questions-never. Whatever. But choices and flexibility are keys. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Originally posted by Kurgan True, but remember that Raven already knew the Q3 engine very well from having done Elite Force. Then they cut their teeth on force powers/sabers with Jedi Outcast. (and the fact that they were getting even more practice by doing Soldier of Fortune II at more or less the same time as JA) This made making Jedi Academy a lot easier since they could build on what they already knew. Hand them the Doom3 engine and they'll have to start over from scratch, so it'll be a few years before they can make a new Jedi game based on it that stands up to the previous installments. Granted, Raven is now working on QuakeIV, but again, they'd need another two games to get it "right" (if the past are any indictaions). The Unreal engine is still a better choice since it's so familiar and has proven itself time and again. The only reason that people are demanding Doom3 is because it has "wow graphics." What does Doom3 offer that would specifically benefit a Jedi Knight game? Other than graphics I can't think of anything offhand. But maybe people who know more can tell me... The only reason I can see for Doom3 to be an option is if Raven is picked again to do a Jedi game in the near future and they have gotten enough experience with the engine to think it could work. Given Raven's long association with ID software's engines, it's possible they may go that route first anyway. If Republic Commando proves a success perhaps LA will decide Unreal tech is a better option. Who knows? It's based on time and money. If they think they can do it faster and cheaper (will still living up to the previous installments) on one engine than another, they probably will do so. Well, Raven was handed the Doom 3 engine 2 or 3 years ago so that they could learn the new technology before actually starting to make Quake IV, so they should know the Doom 3 engine quite well by now. The interface of the Doom 3 engine is actually based on that of Quake III's (John Carmack basically took the Quake III code, ripped out the renderer and wrote a new one), so the learning curve is actually fairly easy if you've worked with the Quake III engine. It's only the new technology which you have to learn, and that's something you have to do no matter what modern engine you use. The Doom 3 engine has everything that you'd want in a Jedi Knight game...graphics (in particular, the unified real time lighting and shadows which no other engine currently uses), great physics, very good sound engine (it has sound physics for sounds bouncing off the actual walls and stuff in the levels), better mod support due to every file used by the Doom 3 engine (except the texture images) being text files (even the model files and model animation files!), the support for large outdoor scenes with terrain (yes, the Doom 3 engine can easily do a kilometer of terrain), vehicle support. Those last two are things that were actually mentioned by John Carmack when he said that Splash Damage (the people who made the multiplayer levels for Doom 3) were having fun bouncing a buggy around on some terrain, but that that wasn't the type of game Doom 3 was, so it wouldn't be in Doom 3. The Doom 3 engine supports it, however. Also, besides the text files making editing easier, the Doom 3 engine actually has the Radiant editor built into the game engine itself, so you can render what the level will look like in real time in the editor preview frame. Anyway, the Doom 3 engine isn't completely different to work with, since it's based off of the interface used by Quake III (even the material/shader files are about the same, only with many more functions), and since it supports every technological thing that people seem to want in the next Jedi Knight game, and since Raven is probably going to be the one developing it, the Doom 3 engine really is a good choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druid_Allanon Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 And I like it this way. I'd rather have different games that are true to different genres and do them well. Like you said, KOTOR is a crpg and does it well. It doesn't try to be a FPS or other genre. It is possible to incorporate elements from other genres, but they have to be careful not to overdo it. Trying to do everything usually means that they don't do one thing really well. Well said indeed. RPGing shouldn't even be incorporated into a FPS game like JKA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler_Durden Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 I don't see why both camps can't have what they want. Let luca$art$ know that there is a big market for an deus ex like FPS. I'm sure if enough people speak up, they would listen. If the potential to make more money presents itself luca$art$ would take the opportunity. I would buy both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by Tyler_Durden Let luca$art$ know that there is a big market for an deus ex like FPS. They probably know ... in fact, didn't some company call Ion Storm come out with something supposed to be along the lines of Deus Ex? But didn't that game also blow chunks? Seriously - we know that KotOR has sold extremely well, and both JKII and JA were top-sellers ... hopefully that bodes well for future developments. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by txa1265 Definitely FPS - but not necessarily fast paced. And while not too much character development, I'd stress character *choices* should be important. Given a flexible game system I can either roleplay or just run-n-gun. I can use stealth or kill-no-ask-questions-never. Whatever. But choices and flexibility are keys. True. I'm thinking "fast-paced" compared to how RPG combat works. With "character development", I'm think more in terms of character progression. In a FPS, I don't want to have to manage a bunch of stats and attributes, or worry about my +3 blaster. I want my abilities to improve over the course of the game, but I don't want to have to micro-manage them (that's what I want in RPGs). I still want character development in the story and the choices I can make story-wise. Originally posted by Tyler_Durden I don't see why both camps can't have what they want. Usually because in reality neither camp gets what they want. It's fine to say we want a game that has all the great elements from lots of genres, but in the end all these things are not always compatible, or get the amount of work they deserve. There are limited time and budgets, so the more features you add, the less focus each gets. I'm not saying it is impossible, I just don't want to sacrifice the FPS history of excellence of the Dark Forces series by trying to turn it into another genre. To me, the story and choices you can make in the story are where the RPG elements should be in the JK series. Originally posted by Tyler_Durden Let luca$art$ know that there is a big market for an deus ex like FPS. I'm sure if enough people speak up, they would listen. But is there really a big market? I don't know, but Lucasarts is not dumb. They do lots of market research and they know what sells. Dues Ex came out almost 4 years ago. If all people wanted was that kind of FPS, they would be everywhere. But they aren't. I suspect that they find that FPS players want games that provide an excellent FPS experience, and don't care about other genres being in there. Likewise for RPG players. Sure there is some overlap, but what players don't like is a bunch of sub-par elements from a bunch of different genres. Jack of all trades and master of none, so to speak. Look at JA. Most hardcore FPS players wanted excellent lightsaber combat that improved on JO. Many felt that they didn't get that. They don't care about how many pairs of pants you can choose from. They'd rather Raven get rid of the RPG stuff and focus on providing the best possible FPS lightsaber experience. Originally posted by Tyler_Durden If the potential to make more money presents itself luca$art$ would take the opportunity. I would buy both. I think you are right. So I would say that it is likely a good indication that Lucasarts hasn't seen a lot of potential to make more profit. I think that Lucasarts has found that licensing work out to genre specific companies to create genre specific games is how to make the most profit. I mean, who can argue with the success of KOTOR, JO, and so on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by Prime my +3 blaster. Where'd you get the +3 Blaster? I had Jaden quaffing potions of whoopa$$ but he could only wield a +1 Staff of Dismemberment ... oh, well, it got me through the game ... But is there really a big market? I don't know, but Lucasarts is not dumb. They do lots of market research and they know what sells. Dues Ex came out almost 4 years ago. If all people wanted was that kind of FPS, they would be everywhere. But they aren't. I suspect that they find that FPS players want games that provide an excellent FPS experience, and don't care about other genres being in there. Likewise for RPG players. Sure there is some overlap, but what players don't like is a bunch of sub-par elements from a bunch of different genres. Jack of all trades and master of none, so to speak. I also think it is because developing a game like that is really hard - people will accept a 4 year or so cycle for a RPG. They will not for a FPS, unless there is a new engine attached. In which case you only have a year or so for the game itself. A good FPS should have a plot you can describe in a paragraph. Most these days have 'single-sentence' plots (e.g. it's WWII, stupid, kill the Nazis!). An RPG with a paragraph long story description will be trashed. You need a paragraph for just the *premise* of games like KotOR or BG2. Look at JA. Most hardcore FPS players wanted excellent lightsaber combat that improved on JO. Many felt that they didn't get that. They don't care about how many pairs of pants you can choose from. They'd rather Raven get rid of the RPG stuff and focus on providing the best possible FPS lightsaber experience. But these games are not made for 'hardcore FPS gamers', are they? They are primarily for people who aspire to wield a lightsaber ... for whom Star Wars captures the imagination. They are also for FPS gamers, but the balance is tough to manage. As they say - be careful when you give the people what they want, because that isn't what they really want. I believe as objectively as I can be that JA was treated unfairly in reviews - it was pitted against games that *still* aren't out (DoomIII, HL2, FarCry) and people seemed to hold a grudge about the fact that *they* saw it as an expansion yet LucasArts priced it and marketed it as a full game. Oh well. I think that Lucasarts has found that licensing work out to genre specific companies to create genre specific games is how to make the most profit. I mean, who can argue with the success of KOTOR, JO, and so on? True. I never said that what I wanted was marketable ... it is just what I want. Was Deus Ex even a best seller? Just ask NOLF - it doesn't matter how many critics love you if most people who actually play your game paid 9.99 for it at Walmart 2 years after release. (I saw NOLF2 for 4.99 at Toys 'R Us a few weeks ago). Should the only motivating factor for making a game be having it be a top seller? No, but when you look at the rolls of 'former companies', it is littered with people who made something cool that no one wanted. Between the fact that some combination of Sims / Madden / WWII amounts for ~75% of game sales across all platforms, it is hard to push a new idea out there. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by txa1265 I also think it is because developing a game like that is really hard - people will accept a 4 year or so cycle for a RPG. They will not for a FPS, unless there is a new engine attached. In which case you only have a year or so for the game itself. Sorry to self-quote, but wanted to expand a bit. Think about Deus Ex for a bit. You have a skill point system with experience and exploration experience bonuses and biomods to increase major 'feats'. That part is very RPG. The plot of the game is nowhere near the scope of KoTOR or BG2, but is pretty good for a FPS ... no, it is *rare* for a FPS. But, when you were starting out - did you really know what to do with your skill points? Did you really care which side you took at the end? I didn't. I really wished I had allocated points differently early on. Towards the end, I did as much of all of the endings as I could just for the fun. I gave up PC games for lent (OK, I took an extra day or so to finish JA on my Mac, but nothing since then ... and I still play a bit of GBA) - but before that I was playing Dungeon Siege on my Mac, and also picked up Return of the King for the GBA. RotK provides you an interface to assign stats to your character (Gandalf for me ) and skills and such - but *no information* ... not much fun until you learn what does what (I'm back to Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance now). But Dungeon Siege, while the game itself is pretty boring and more linear than (I never thought I'd say this) SoFII, it also has a simple progression system - reward using skills by progressing skills. I'm sure that the amount of FPS gamers who love KotOR is not lost on the suits at LucasArts (and other companies). It is just a question what they'll do about it ... I don't want to lose the pure fun of JK/JO/JA or of KoTOR by making a complex & cumbersome 'worst of both worlds' hybrid. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xirr2000 Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by txa1265 I'm sure that the amount of FPS gamers who love KotOR is not lost on the suits at LucasArts (and other companies). It is just a question what they'll do about it ... I don't want to lose the pure fun of JK/JO/JA or of KoTOR by making a complex & cumbersome 'worst of both worlds' hybrid. Mike Very true. Combining features from two succesful implementations is a true art that I think few companies posess. I think LucasArts can do it though, this Star Wars not Star Trek after all. Although honestly I would have loved Kotor with a FPS engine in it. I like manually controlling the methods of killing my foes rather than racking up commands and letting the computer handle the messy stuff. I want to handle the messy stuff. I also like the fact that you could hop into a spaceship in Kotor and go places, although it was more of a conceptual thing. You didn't really pilot anything. Star Wars is a space opera, lets get some more space into the mix. In between chopping things with a lightsaber how about having to pilot a ship in some missions? Some could be combat, others you have to stealth your way into a location in your ship and then whip out yer glowing stick of death after you've landed yourself in the enemy base. Something like this would call on you to use a joystick to give you a feel for the different aspect of the game and help to mix things up and keep you on your toes. I'm surprised with Kyle Katarn's sleek looking ship that you never did more than get a ride in it. Last but not least, how about a Toolset that would allow players to make their own modules, like in Never Winter Nights. With all the amazing work I've seen put into mods I can only think that the quality (and quantity) of player created modules would be immense. I'm sure the thought of a bunch of modules floating out there and Geoge Lucas not getting a penny would cause him to lose no end of sleep, but it would certainly keep the audience entertained until you released the next iteration of the game. NWN certainly seems to be enjoying some success with the concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial_thug Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 I like the saber stuff and I like the gun only stuff too. They should have you play as two characters like in Resident Evil Zero. One character could be a jedi and the other one could be his or her mercenary sidekick, and you could switch between the two on the fly to accomplish goals. That would be sweet, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by txa1265 Where'd you get the +3 Blaster? Cheats Originally posted by txa1265 But these games are not made for 'hardcore FPS gamers', are they? They are primarily for people who aspire to wield a lightsaber ... for whom Star Wars captures the imagination. "Hardcore" is too strong a word I guess. I'm just saying that I get the impression that most players bought JA because of the FPS lightsabers and because it is Star Wars. Not because you can create your own character or can "RPG." Originally posted by txa1265 I believe as objectively as I can be that JA was treated unfairly in reviews - it was pitted against games that *still* aren't out (DoomIII, HL2, FarCry) and people seemed to hold a grudge about the fact that *they* saw it as an expansion yet LucasArts priced it and marketed it as a full game. Oh well. I agree completely. It has its flaws, but I think JA is a lot better than people give it credit for. Maybe that's just us. Originally posted by xirr2000 Although honestly I would have loved Kotor with a FPS engine in it. I like manually controlling the methods of killing my foes rather than racking up commands and letting the computer handle the messy stuff. I want to handle the messy stuff. I am the opposite. I like the fact that in KOTOR the game itself controls the "moves" I do after I have given the commands. The reason I like that is because I know that the fantastic look of the lightsaber battles would be very difficult to recreate with realtime player input (You couldn't change the camera angles for starters). Not only that, I like controlling all my party memebers, and that would simply be impossible with a FPS system. Really, JO/JA does about as good a job as one can expect at this point in time for FPS lightsaber combat. The KOTOR fights look very cinematic and convincing, and I don't want to give that up just so I can mash some buttons. When I want to mash some buttons, I play JA. Again, both games provide different things, and thus I like each for different reasons. I bet if they had tried to add JA combat to KOTOR, in the end the resulting game would be less satisfying that KOTOR is now. Originally posted by xirr2000 I also like the fact that you could hop into a spaceship in Kotor and go places, although it was more of a conceptual thing. You didn't really pilot anything. Star Wars is a space opera, lets get some more space into the mix. In between chopping things with a lightsaber how about having to pilot a ship in some missions? Right now when tehy try to do this you end up with games like Clone Wars. It has levels where you drive vehicles and use your lightsaber. But the lightsaber fighting is miles behind JO and the vehicle stuff is miles behind something like Rogue Squadron or the X-Wing series. I haven't played the whole game, but wouldn't people agree that Clone Wars isn't as good as those other games? To me, that is a perfect example of what happens when you try and cover a lot of genres in one game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xirr2000 Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Originally posted by Prime Right now when tehy try to do this you end up with games like Clone Wars. It has levels where you drive vehicles and use your lightsaber. But the lightsaber fighting is miles behind JO and the vehicle stuff is miles behind something like Rogue Squadron or the X-Wing series. I haven't played the whole game, but wouldn't people agree that Clone Wars isn't as good as those other games? To me, that is a perfect example of what happens when you try and cover a lot of genres in one game. I agree, Clone Wars was an awful, awful, awful game. It pretty much sucked at everything, rocked at nothing. But I'd like to think someone, somewhere is up to the challenge of raising the bar. I'm not saying I'd want it to turn into a space flight sim or anything, but it would be cool to be able to fly yourself to your next mission. Take off, put in your destination, hit the hyperdrive and maybe to an arcade type landing and see some scenery along the way. I've always loved the visuals and sound with Star Wars and something like this would give some eye candy in between the fights. Of course there would be an option to skip this type of thing if you are in a hurry, but it would also be a nice touch. If they wanted to go extreme with it you could even have a mission where you have to scan planets and map areas. Of course you could land on these planets and explore further, with chances of running into random encounters or even NPCs for a side mission. I keep thinking back to the days of starflight and starflight 2 and the fun it was to explore. That game really gave an impression of a large galaxy and a sense of adventure. Little things like clever starmaps and dialogue here and there made them very enjoyable. I can't help but think how cool it would be to incorporate something like that into something like the JK series. Also, I would prefer more puzzles in the next one. JKA was a little skimpy on cool ways to use the force without killing someone. And the puzzles they did have were pretty simple, bordering on the insanely obvious in some cases. Or at least if you have to focus on chopping enemies, allow there to be more cool ways to do it with clever uses of your powers. Don't get me wrong, a big plus of the game in my book is wading through masses of stormtroopers and watching the parts fly. It never seems to get old for some reason But I would like to see more. It's been awhile since a game really blew me away, and I think the next one that does could easily be one based on the JK design. Kotor was almost there, but I felt that watching my toon fight was not as fun me doing the bobbing and weaving, even if it didn't quite look as choreographed as a movie fight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Originally posted by txa1265 Think about Deus Ex for a bit. You have a skill point system with experience and exploration experience bonuses and biomods to increase major 'feats'. That part is very RPG. The plot of the game is nowhere near the scope of KoTOR or BG2, but is pretty good for a FPS ... no, it is *rare* for a FPS. Deus Ex was a game far ahead of its time. It was the first FPS with a story that actually meant a damn, and wasn't linear either. The only problem it had was advertising. Ion Storm had always been in a ****hole with that dreaded game we won't mention here (hint, begins with a D). Anyways, that's the problem with the Dark Forces series, besides my constant rants on developing a better melee combat system and actual balance for all game types. Sure, you can go either Light or Dark side. Big whoop. There's only one way to solve your problems: light up your saber and open a can of whoopass. That gets boring after a while. After playing the origonal Deus Ex in preparation for Invisible War (which sucked, by the way), I was essentially spoiled when I tried playing Jedi Academy again. Deus Ex had a system of customization that worked depending on your playstyle, and your choices matter. Sure, it might pick up that "RPG" element, but if it invokes more creativity in your selection in how you're going to get yourself out of a jam, do it. And just for the record, Deus Ex DMs are slaughterfests. This is the obligatory FU fanboi statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radd Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Originally posted by Rad Blackrose Deus Ex was a game far ahead of its time. It was the first FPS with a story that actually meant a damn, and wasn't linear either. The only problem it had was advertising. Ion Storm had always been in a ****hole with that dreaded game we won't mention here (hint, begins with a D). Anyways, that's the problem with the Dark Forces series, besides my constant rants on developing a better melee combat system and actual balance for all game types. Sure, you can go either Light or Dark side. Big whoop. There's only one way to solve your problems: light up your saber and open a can of whoopass. That gets boring after a while. After playing the origonal Deus Ex in preparation for Invisible War (which sucked, by the way), I was essentially spoiled when I tried playing Jedi Academy again. Deus Ex had a system of customization that worked depending on your playstyle, and your choices matter. Sure, it might pick up that "RPG" element, but if it invokes more creativity in your selection in how you're going to get yourself out of a jam, do it. And just for the record, Deus Ex DMs are slaughterfests. This is the obligatory FU fanboi statement. I'm fairly certain that both the Theif and System Shock series were out before Deus Ex, and both accomplished similar things. Deus Ex simply expanded on, and refined the idea. Credit where credit is due. I am all for keeping the Jedi Knight series firmly routed in the FPS genre, however adding more elements of customization and experience, which should not be considered 'RPG' elements unless you think every sidescroller should be Mario, every FPS should be DOOM, and that nothing new should be tried in already established game genres. Heck, there's already many different kinds of RPGs out there, so different in execution it is stretching it to place them in the same category. Adding background characters such as helpless bystanders, informants, and whatnot wouldn't really turn JK into an RPG, but would breath more life into the environments, and open up many new ways for the game to progress, while keeping the FPS action intact. It would, in my opinion, even add to the challenege in some levels as you try to kill the bd guys, while avoiding the civilians. Plus, a story on top of an FPS is merely frosting on the cake. The ideal is to havea game that rewards you for your efforts with a nifty storyline, but if that story were to be removed, then the action by itself would still carry the game. I mean, do FPS fans really hate it so much if an excellent FPS game happens to have an excellent story along with it? I wouldn't think so, so long as the story elements didn't hamper the FPS goodness. I still maintain that the customibility of JA is a good thing, and expanding on that would make the game even better. Adding experience elements much like Deus Ex or System Shock would also add more meat to the gameplay, but wouldn't at all turn it from an FPS into an RPG. Then again, you want to get semantic? All games are RPGs. Role Playing Games. Any game where you take some sort of role. In the JK series, you take the role of a Jedi fighting the evil Empire. That meets all of the requirements for an RPG. Pac-Man, you take the role of..well..Pac-Man, avoiding ghosts in his little maze world. Some degree of roleplaying is present in all games. Things like experience points, skill levels, turn based battles, and stories are all elements that could be added to any genre of game without making it an RPG or otherwise. A first person view is not something found only in FPS games. In fact, it was found in many RPG videogames before even Wolfenstein 3D. Metroid uses a first person view, but isn't a shooter anymore than the original Metroid for the NES was. Of course, to be realistic, there is a group of genres bunched together and labeled as 'RPG' games. Final Fantasy, KotOR, Betrayal at Krondor, and I agree with those of you who say that the JK series should not become those games. I apologize for what may seem as something of a tangent from the topic at hand, but it seems important to the conversation as there appears to be a few people that do want a Star Wars RPG along those lines, but with the battles and movement handled like it is in the JK series. Then there seems to be another couple people that thinks that the JK series should steer far away from anything elements that are even associated, no matter how loosly, with RPG games, despite the fact that they are already present in the series and have been since Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight. Such elements have already been put to use in games that no one in their right mind would consider to be in the same genre as Final Fantasy, or anything like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rccar328 Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 I just had an interesting idea...wouldn't it be cool if in the next JK game the main boss was a jedi with 4-arms wielding 4 sabers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rccar328 Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 lol:p Well, it was just a thought...I was thinking about what a great boss Maw was, because he was different from any other jedi because he had no legs & could fly around - it gave him a totally distinct fighting style that's different from what you'd expect from a jedi with legs...I just thought a boss that is totally distinctive in a non-humanoid sort of way would be cool. I guess a 4-armed jedi would still be a humanoid, but fighting tactics would be totally different... ok, ok...I'll shut up now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lathain Valtiel Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Originally posted by rccar328 I just had an interesting idea...wouldn't it be cool if in the next JK game the main boss was a jedi with 4-arms wielding 4 sabers? -Spoiler?- We have Ep III for things with more than two arms... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acdcfanbill Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 yea, i think we should just let george keep coming up with bad ideas, and the rest of us can take a break Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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