Gabez Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Originally posted by Doomgiver Oh, i know a way to get abck on topic: About the tiem, and free will thing. What if God sees you will wear a blue jacket tomorrow, and then you go to your closet, and decide to take the red one. You see, as Yoda said so nicely before me, 'always in motion, the future is.' because 'the future' is created as we make desicions. And there is no way of knowing what those desicions will be if you do not make them. But if God can see what you'll wear tomorow as yaebginn says He does, then the future is not "always in motion", and it is not created as we make those decisions. Also: great picture! But WTF is up with that flag? Judging by the number of stars it looks like an anitque. :~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B1GC Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Mort, you make absolutly no sense The new war is everyone commintg suicide? what kind of messed up lunitic are you. The reason all these people are committing suicide is that they are like yaeb said...ignorant. What kind of religon commands its followers to commit suicide, sounds like something the devil would do to me. Its not an act of honor to kill yourself for a cause, its stupid. The reason Americans bomb and use tactics is to prevent loss of your own soldiers and kill the other guy. "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." -General Gerorge Patton The Third Army of WWII Terrorism will never survive for that very reason. Eventaully they will kill themselves off. It has been 3 years since a terrorist attack on US soil, where are all these attacks you speak of? Maybe there not coming becasue we took the war to the terroists. Do it again or two more times, even three, things will become very bad for your so called terroists that you so proudly support. What happend after Pearl Harbor? America does not like seeing its citizens die. If it is our own fault then they get mad at the government....but if its someone elses fault (terroism)...we take it out on them. America was founded by people who left their homes to come hear. These people were adventures, convicts, people not afraid of the unknown. This is still in the blood of the people today. America will never lay down and die. If we do go out, we will take quite a few with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomie Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Spoken like a warrior. But if God can see what you'll wear tomorow as yaebginn says He does, then the future is not "always in motion", and it is not created as we make those decisions. In that case, the only option is: God controls our every move. Ain't it creepy? But then, why not make people believe in him since they'll go to hell otherwise? Because he wants to? That's hardly loving and caring, wanting to see more than half of the worlds population burn in hell... Or maybe heaven's full? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabez Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 I can't speak too much for Mort, but it is painfully obvious that he is not supporting Terrorists. He seems to be just saying that the wars of the future will be fought through Terrorism, not on the battlefield, and fighting on the battlefield (e.g. Iraq) is not going to win the fight of Terrorism (e.g. 9/11). "Eventually they will kill themselves off" - there are many many terrorists and more being made every day. If they kill themselves in battle, then they become matyrs. Personally I agree totally with you - this is lunacy. But that's what they think, unfortunately. "It has been 3 years since a terrorist attack on US soil, where are all these attacks you speak of?" - oh, so just beause there hasn't been a terrorist attack on US soil means that there haven't been any terrorist attacks! Because of course America is the only country that counts! Gee, thanks. Try telling that to the Terrorist victims in Europe. "These people were adventures, convicts, people not afraid of the unknown." - you make it sound like it was a picninc in the park. My American history is a little rusty, so I won't comment on this too much, but I understood that most of the immigrants were terrified. "If we do go out, we will take quite a few with us." - true, but the same can be said for any big country. Doomgiver: exactly! (Although there is another way out of it, but I don't want to go into that because it's more fun to have people think about it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomie Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Aw c'mon, what is the other way? personally, i don't see it. But it's true, terrorrist groups keep growing. First, they create Chaos by having two or three people blow themselves up, then they say it's the American's fault all those people died in terrorrist attacks, because since the Americans came to iraq, there have been more terrorrist attacks, and about twenty people join their cause to chase away the Americans. Sure, they will die out eventualy, but the always take down hundreds of people at the cost of only one, and even more will join then. I think we'll be out of soldiers before they're out of terrorrists... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaebginn Posted July 14, 2004 Author Share Posted July 14, 2004 I know there's been other attacks, Spain for instance. Ok, one thing, Yoda said the future is always in motion, not God. I suppose you believe in the Force and tauntauns as well, huh? God lts us choose to embrace him becasue he loves us enough to let us make our own decisions. and gabez, you are obviously a liberal. Or a Michael Moore fan. I made a mistake in typing, then posted the correct thing later, and you post the mistake. I clarified it later on that he doesnt send us to hell, we choose to go. Which all of those who have knowledge of the Christian religion, yewt dotn follow it are doing. tfighter, awesome pic, I may make it my background. Alright, about the things being good, Gabez. Neither is true. Things are good because God made it that way. Not because he said it was or commanded it to be so. Some things arent good, and those were things created by God but with Satan's influence of them. Man is good, but gays are not. Gays are men with Satan's influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabez Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Well I haven't yet studied the way around this problem fully, but I know that questioning the nature of knowledge goes some way to offering a solution for Theists. Basically - God has all knowledge, but "knowledge" only applies to things that haven't happened yet. For this to be true, God would not be able to be outside time, though, but instead inside time, but eternal. here's an idea for if He was outside time and looking into our time though (imagine it as a man in a helicopter looking down on a road): You were also onto something, I think, when you said that the future is constantly unfolding - this got me thinking that maybe our decisions have already been made by us "in the past" for God, who is in the future, but because He is timeless, it means that the future God is the same as the present day God, thus even though He knows what we'll do tomorow, it would be like a time-traveller from the future coming back to the present day and telling us and knowing what we'll do tomorow. If they simply know it, then we still have free will, because we will be uninflurenced the next day, and the time-traveller's knowledge only comes from what he has learnt in the future. If they tell us what we will wear tomorow then we no longer have true free will to wear what we want. God could be like that, being like the time traveller, only at every point in time at once. This is purely an interlectual exercise, though, as the solutions to these problems have already been discussed to death by philosophers. It's still fun to think about them, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomie Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Yoda said the future is always in motion, not God. I suppose you believe in the Force and tauntauns as well, huh? I only quoted Yoda because he was right about it. It's not like starwars is (God what am i saying) real. Well, as a time traveler, being at every point in time at once is easy. Since there are multiple times we're speaking of, 'at once' does not apply. Today and yesterday don't happen at the same time, right? So all you have to do is go to every time in... um... time, and there you have it. But the way you say it, we have no free will. It is just impossible to predict the future, you can only see a possible future, since all the desicions have yet to be made. Only if God controlled all our minds, he would be able to know what we'll do. WEll, maybe not control, but if our lives have been planned by Him since we were born, that'd be a pretty good explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabez Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Originally posted by yaebginn Alright, about the things being good, Gabez. Neither is true. Things are good because God made it that way. Not because he said it was or commanded it to be so. Some things arent good, and those were things created by God but with Satan's influence of them. Man is good, but gays are not. Gays are men with Satan's influence. "Are things good because God says they are, or does God simply command things which are good?" You're talking about evil things - such as being gay, in your opinion, but I'll leave that for now - I'm talking about what is GOOD. Okay, so we can turn the question around to apply to evil - according to what you're saying, God says things are evil because they are evil (which are evil, in their own right, because of "Satan's influence of them"). Okay. You're missing the point here - you've got to ask WHY does God say that gays are evil? (I don't think He does, but for the sake of this argument we'll just pressume you're right). Your answer will most likely be "because the Devil had influrence on men, turning them gay". Okay then, WHY are things which have the influrence of the devil on them evil? "Because the devil is evil according to God" - okay, so God says the Devil is evil. Fine. But where does He get that moral fact from? Did He say that the Devil was evil, and that just MADE whatever Satan did evil? Or did God look at what Satan did (e.g. the way he rebelled in Heaven) and said "that's not good" - in which case, how does God know that what Satan did wasn't good? The answer to that is that there are some universal moral laws - e.g. murdering is wrong - that God agrees to, which is why He said that Satan is evil. But if that is the case, then these are external moral laws that are above God - and that goes against the nature of the Judeo-Christian understanding of God through the teachings of the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mort-Hog Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Ahah, you're now following the 1970s and 80s line of thought regarding suicide bombers. Firstly, you're ignoring that there are typically two different types of suicide bomber, following two different organisations. * There is the religious suicide bomber, to which most of you are referring. These are such as HAMAS, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad. They feel that their religion is threatened and they are attacking their oppressors. They tend to be fighting for a very abstract and unspecific cause. * There is the political suicide bomber. The Kurdistan Worker's Party, the Tamil Tigers, and Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade are all strictly political organisations. Al Queda fit into this catagory, too. The reason all these people are committing suicide is that they are like yaeb said...ignorant. 47% of the suicide bombers have an academic education and an additional 29% have at least a high school education. Suicide bombers are not uneducated. The traditional profile of a suicide bomber from the 70s and 80s is largely incorrect. Suicide bombers can be male or female. Chechen suicide bombers are largely female. Suicide bombers tend to be between 18 and 25, but older suicide are not uncommon. Many have children and families. The only common thread is that they have bitter experiences of state terror. "Without exception, the suicide bombers have lived their lives on the receiving end of a system designed to trample their rights and crush every hope of a brighter future… Confronted by a seemingly endless combination of death, destruction, restriction, harassment and humiliation, they conclude that ending life as a bomb - rather than having it ended by a bullet - endows them, even if only in their final moments, with a semblance of purpose and control previously considered out of reach." From Middle East News Online This war is not against individuals, it is against a cause as a whole. 76% of Palestinians support the suicide bombings, and that support has no sign of dropping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomie Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 "Without exception, the suicide bombers have lived their lives on the receiving end of a system designed to trample their rights and crush every hope of a brighter future… Confronted by a seemingly endless combination of death, destruction, restriction, harassment and humiliation, they conclude that ending life as a bomb - rather than having it ended by a bullet - endows them, even if only in their final moments, with a semblance of purpose and control previously considered out of reach." Hey, i missed that part. Well, you seem to think that Suicide bombers are like this: The government has been harrassing them so long, that they got depressed, and instead of a bullet, that's safe, they chose to blow up countless of other people wiht them because they're assholes right? NO! They do this for a cause that seems just to them. Not because they are so depressed, but because they are so brave to die fighting their enemy. Because, if you don't fear death, is their anything you do fear? Suicide bombers aren't like people in the west. People in the west commit suicide when their eife leaves them, or when they lose their house, or stuff. But the suicide bombers are fighting a war, and in a damn brave way too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tFighterPilot Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Originally posted by Mort-Hog Ahah, you're now following the 1970s and 80s line of thought regarding suicide bombers. Firstly, you're ignoring that there are typically two different types of suicide bomber, following two different organisations. * There is the religious suicide bomber, to which most of you are referring. These are such as HAMAS, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad. They feel that their religion is threatened and they are attacking their oppressors. They tend to be fighting for a very abstract and unspecific cause. * There is the political suicide bomber. The Kurdistan Worker's Party, the Tamil Tigers, and Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade are all strictly political organisations. Al Queda fit into this catagory, too. 47% of the suicide bombers have an academic education and an additional 29% have at least a high school education. Suicide bombers are not uneducated. The traditional profile of a suicide bomber from the 70s and 80s is largely incorrect. Suicide bombers can be male or female. Chechen suicide bombers are largely female. Suicide bombers tend to be between 18 and 25, but older suicide are not uncommon. Many have children and families. The only common thread is that they have bitter experiences of state terror. From Middle East News Online This war is not against individuals, it is against a cause as a whole. 76% of Palestinians support the suicide bombings, and that support has no sign of dropping. http://www.kgov.com/gallery/terrorism/palestinian/palestinian.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomie Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 That's shocking. and disturbing. Alright, THAT is not brave. Children who don't even know what they're doing sending right into their doom. That is just disturbed. I'm beginning to get your point now, Tfighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabez Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Yeah, that picture is horrible... suicide bombers are obviously a terrible terrible thing in this world, but then again, trying to use violence to solve problems is always terrible. The only way it can be justified is in cases like World War II - although Hitler should never have got so much power in the first place, and we should never have apeased him. Iraq was not justified, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomie Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Alright, now that that's said, i think the God topic was the most interesting, let's get back ont hat one okay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabez Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Good idea. If you're looking for more stuff to say, look back on my earlier posts (I've said stuff that people haven't challenged yet). Or explain why you think being Gay is evil, because that's another good one (short answer: it cannot be justified morally, only through blind faith - which IMO is a poor reason to hate something for). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomie Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Exactly. I see nothing evil in being gay. They just love eachother. And c3po is not gay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaebginn Posted July 14, 2004 Author Share Posted July 14, 2004 It grew alot! Geez. I'm at the end of page 4 now, and I'll read the rest after this post. One thing, evil is whatever is against God's rules directly. The devil is evil because he rebelled against God. There is no higher set of morals above God because he is the top, he just creates morals. He is the morals. Whatever he says goes because he is perfect and made everything. And suicide bombers also blow themselves up because their families are promises amounts of money or sumsuch. Not for a belief. and being gay is wrong because it is against what God said. The Bibles says 'and man and woman he created them.' them he told them to multiply in number. The whole reason for sex is to multiply in umbet. We dont always use it for that, but thats the whole reason it was made for. And gays are useless, not individually, but their kind is. They contribiute nothing. Like I said, individual gays might, but not them as a whole. and about the suicide bombers. Like in Israel, not only kids, but they attack pizza shops full of teens and stuff. What does that solve other than killing innocents? I mean, if you think suicide bombers are brave, them you are fairly screwed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tFighterPilot Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Originally posted by yaebginn It grew alot! Geez. I'm at the end of page 4 now, and I'll read the rest after this post. One thing, evil is whatever is against God's rules directly. The devil is evil because he rebelled against God. There is no higher set of morals above God because he is the top, he just creates morals. He is the morals. Whatever he says goes because he is perfect and made everything. And suicide bombers also blow themselves up because their families are promises amounts of money or sumsuch. Not for a belief. and being gay is wrong because it is against what God said. The Bibles says 'and man and woman he created them.' them he told them to multiply in number. The whole reason for sex is to multiply in umbet. We dont always use it for that, but thats the whole reason it was made for. And gays are useless, not individually, but their kind is. They contribiute nothing. Like I said, individual gays might, but not them as a whole. I'm begining to think that you're faking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaebginn Posted July 14, 2004 Author Share Posted July 14, 2004 faking what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B1GC Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Yes Mort Yaeb brings up a good point. You blame Americans for killing incocent people such as the wedding party where you said we bombed and killed people shooting off fireworks. What you forget is that this incident took place at 4 in the morning, I dont know about your culture but wedding partys dont happen at 4 in the morning. And the area was found to be smuggaling in illegal guns, anywyas, like i was saying. YOu blame us for killing inocents when at the same time your glorified suicide bombers are killing inocents as well. Innocent people were killed on that bus in Spain. Inocent peopl ewere killed on the planes and in the World Trade Center on 9/11. How can you say these people were any less innocent then the people we may accidently kill over there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomie Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 he is perfect Aha! Why is He perfect? Because He says so. There's no way of knowing if God (Let's say He's there) is indeed good. Of course, you can says he's good because he told so, but he can also be a lying S.O.B. right? You're just assuming evrything goes because God says so, and God is good, but there's no proof for that now is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaebginn Posted July 14, 2004 Author Share Posted July 14, 2004 thats where faith comes in. You need faith in order to be a christian because not everything is proven. You need to believe. Thats why Jesus said we must have the faith of a child. Cause like with Santa, the truly believe it. Santa isnt real, but God is, but Santa is just the closest example I can think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomie Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 But do you never question these things? if God suddenly appeared to all christians and said: 'All women are evil! Stone them!' Then would you stone every woman you came across? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tFighterPilot Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Originally posted by B1GC Yes Mort Yaeb brings up a good point. You blame Americans for killing incocent people such as the wedding party where you said we bombed and killed people shooting off fireworks. What you forget is that this incident took place at 4 in the morning, I dont know about your culture but wedding partys dont happen at 4 in the morning. And the area was found to be smuggaling in illegal guns, anywyas, like i was saying. YOu blame us for killing inocents when at the same time your glorified suicide bombers are killing inocents as well. Innocent people were killed on that bus in Spain. Inocent peopl ewere killed on the planes and in the World Trade Center on 9/11. How can you say these people were any less innocent then the people we may accidently kill over there? So you're saying it's ok to blow up a wedding because terrorists blow up innocents also? That's an interesting logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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