toms Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 abortion = great idea, cos my religion says so. Now argue with that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 You see, I actually have standards that are rooted back to the creation of man Sheesh A couple of thousand years are hardly 'back to the creation of man'. To anyone who discredits religion -- it's an easy thing to do when you're outmatched. No. You see, when I start dissing religion, I am very rarely outmatched. Mainly because religion doesn't need dissing. It does an excellent job of it itself. And I have not been brainwashed, I just do whats right. If doing the right, moral thing is brainwashing, then so be it. Man, Hitler would have loved you. Sieg Halleluja! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mort-Hog Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 You don't even have to get bogged down into the whole "ethical" nonsense to end this debate. The state and the church should be separate. All anti-abortion arguments are religious, so there is no reason why the state should have anything to do with it. Really, there is no logical reason to be against abortion. If a mother is seriously considering an abortion, then the child is clearly unwanted. Note the difference between unwanted and unplanned. Many pregnancies are unplanned, but come as a pleasant surprise. If a pregnancy is genuinely unwanted, then how can that child ever be loved? That child will simply be an unwanted burden on the mother, a chain pulling her down. At best, she will neglect the child, at worst, she will hate it. The child will grow up utterly miserable. It would be better both for the mother and child were the pregnancy aborted to start with and the woman had the child when she was ready, emotionally and/or financially, and the child could grow up in a stable, loving, caring environment. I think this thread is part of several others that display how religion is becoming increasingly detrimental to society. Forcing a mother to keep a child she does not want is not going to help anyone or anything. It will only please your "God". Society must be governed by logic, not religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 I've said it before in another thread, I'll say it here to. Until you scan and post a copy of your membership card(s) for Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, there's not a lot I'll be willing to hear about the "human rights" of unborn fetuses. In Rwanda, Congo and, now, Sudan, ethnic cleansing, genocide, and wholesale, brutal murder of men, women and children is so commonplace that there are those that go to bed not knowing if they will live through the following day. In 1994, several thousand people (mostly women and children) were killed in under an hour. In the Congo, over 800 were hacked to death in under 3 hours. That's a very high rate of death per killer. Many were pregnant women whose stomachs were flayed open with machetes. I'd like to know how many anti-abortion types joined Amnesty International or HRW out of protest. If any are in this thread, post images of your cards (with the personal info blacked out if you wish), and I'll debate with you the ethics of abortion. Until then, no one else is qualified so I'll simply monitor the discussions for rules violations. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 hmmm... it would be nice if they went and blew up those guys instead of doctors and nurses... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelguy227 Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Originally posted by Mort-Hog Society must be governed by logic, not religion. its not logic to kill a human in the womb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Originally posted by reelguy227 its not logic to kill a human in the womb. And yet you're willing to support war why? Why is it okay to kill a fully grown human being as opposed to killing a conglomeration of cells that is not yet human? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mort-Hog Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Originally posted by reelguy227 its not logic to kill a human in the womb. Yes it is. Read the rest of my post. You know, the part where I explained how anti-abortionism is illogical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 and the part where we showed the fetus isn't technically a human... yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mort-Hog Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Whether it's a 'human' or not isn't important. It still makes more sense to abort it. It's in the interests of everyone involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Originally posted by toms hmmm... it would be nice if they went and blew up those guys instead of doctors and nurses... "He's a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelguy227 Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Originally posted by ET Warrior And yet you're willing to support war why? Why is it okay to kill a fully grown human being as opposed to killing a conglomeration of cells that is not yet human? Where did I ever say that I support war ET? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelguy227 Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Originally posted by Mort-Hog Whether it's a 'human' or not isn't important. It still makes more sense to abort it. It's in the interests of everyone involved. So then we might as well legalize murder . So if a gang out on the streets is planning to murder someone then its ok ,because its "in the interests of everyone involved." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack "odc" one. Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 I don't think it'll be in the interest of the familiy of the victim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelguy227 Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 what are you saying jack? im not following. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Originally posted by reelguy227 Where did I ever say that I support war ET? Perhaps that is my mistake, I may have confused your arguments with yaebginns at some point. I appologize if you are in fact anti-war. He's saying that while abortion IS in the best interests of even the unborn child, because it will be born into a family that resolutely DOES NOT WANT HIM, a murder on the street is not in the best interests of the victim OR his family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack "odc" one. Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 This is correct, ET Warrior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelguy227 Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 ill be praying for you guys ,from now on im not going to debate any more ,peace out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Originally posted by reelguy227 ill be praying for you guys Is that good or bad? I'd figure that getting the attention of a deity with an attitude drawn your way isn't exactly good for your health... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack "odc" one. Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Hm. Maybe he can't really argue this. And he can't really say "OK" without contradicting his 'religious' way of thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Now you're being nasty... But you're probably being right as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack "odc" one. Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Well, i couldn't resist, after so much "religious" stuff he threw, he now just withdraws, after even this last argument of him was pointed out to be pointless. The only conclusion for that is, he see's a contradiction but isn't willing or afraid to accept it, since this would undermine his views. But it mustn't. Assumed that the bible was/is misinterpreted at some points, it mustn't be necessarily contradicting to christianity. After all the idea of christianity (or religion in general) is not wrong. It's just old, and the religious folk (those like him) constantly refuses to adapt it's teachings properly into the now. But who am i telling that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druid Bremen Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 According to SOME people, they say that it is wrong to kill an unborn baby. But then again, since it is not fully developed, it is simply a bunch of cells. That said, it means they feel that chickens, ducks, and other animals, which are "higher" than the "unborn baby", should not be killed either. The animals are more living than the lot of cells which are trying to become a full human. Yet some of them feel nothing wrong in killing them. Why? Its because of all these religions, saying that man is more sacred than animals or something. What type of reasoning is this? Though chickens may not be as good as us, they're still living. Religions are just made so that people can explain the unexplained, like the made-up souls, all that. Just so you know, I'm a non-believer. That said, I'm off to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipperthefrog Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Heres what MY dad says about abortion: Origanaly SPOKEN by my dad most people say the "baby is just a little blob of tissue... ... but in the big shceme of things, YOU'RE not that signifigant either! so why dont you terminate yourself?" he's right! In the big picture, EVERYONE is just a little blob of tissue, growing on a tiny planet! we are no "bigger" or more "important" than the unborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 It may not be possible to have such a debate without some ad hominem attacks flying around, but I'll bite... I'm against abortion (in the vast majority of cases, perhaps only the life of the mother, but then if it's a 50/50 chance it's a case-by-case thing). -I'm against war in general (there MIGHT be a case for a "Just War" but I have yet to see an example of one). -I'm against the Death Penalty. -I'm against Assisted Suicide/Euthanasia -I'm in favor of reasonable environmental protection (ie: not like PETA) My beliefs are based on religion and also on philosophy. As a reasonable (ie: not suicidally depressed due to chemical imbalance) human being I would not want someone to attack and kill me, kill me in the womb or execute me; likewise I would not wish those on someone else. The golden rule basically. Is humanism a religion? It's got some of the hallmarks of religion, but anyway, it's based on beliefs we have about ourselves, so, that's another thought. The idea that condom usage and ovulation are the same as abortion doesn't hold, because in those cases the eggs and sperm are already alive, but demonstratably incapable of "developing into a human being on their own." Likewise their DNA is identical to the contributor. Sperm don't live in wild, and I have yet to see colonies of human eggs scampering around in the forest. Anyway, once the egg and sperm are joined in the process of conception, they are not simply one or another parent's DNA but something new (even if, for the moment they are living in the mother's body and dependant on her body for nurishment). What is this about "Fully grown" humans? Are we talking 18 years old? We're growing and developing our entire lives, really. So saying that a person is human only after birth or only after they can vote is really a an arbitrary distinction of society. If you are seriously pro-choice, then you should note that the pro-choice argument is that a human becomes a "person" (artificially constructed "rank" if you will) at a certain time. This time is determined by law, as the time in which you can't be terminated without due process of law. If Partial Birth Abortion is legal, then that means you can be terminated up until you are actually all the way out of the womb, legally. If it's not, then you can be terminated sometime until you start coming out. Speaking of PETA earlier (only as a side note), why don't we give morphine to the fetus who is being aborted? We care about 'animal rights' but we don't care about a young vulnerable human? At what point does a human become "human"... at birth? When they draw their first breath? When they get their driver's liscense? And if we "can't say" or "don't know" then what business do we have saying when it's okay to kill him/her/it? Then there's the adoption issue. Granted, a woman has a big chance of becoming "attached" to her baby by carrying him/her in her womb for 9 months, but still, is it really more loving to have him/her killed than to give her up to some strangers? I've heard that it's easier to have an abortion than to adopt a baby, because the qualifications (and waiting lists) are so long/big. But if you're adopted, your chances are good of having a better chance, because at least the family is going to be ready (willing) and able (financially) to raise you. I've talked to people who were the products of rape (seemed pretty human to me) who didn't hate themselves for the crime of one of their parents. They weren't a drain on society, anymore than any other victim of violence. My heart goes out to those who have lived through abortions, but I wonder if they really understood the alternatives. Saying a person is better off dead than poor is really saying a lot (what a depressing thought). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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