acdcfanbill Posted March 20, 2005 Share Posted March 20, 2005 If anyone wastes that much money to keep me alive when i clearly am not intended to be, their ass is haunted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 Me too... i'll haunt their NES or something. Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 I kinda feel bad about the situation. Every life has a purpose, in my opinion. Maybe her purpose is to put a bit of humanity and compassion back into the system? I'd say the courts made the right decision... though it is a shame we treat convicted murderers with more compassion than accident victims... Its a shame that GW had to cut short his vacation though... and stir up the whole mess again. BTW. At the moment on the MSNBC poll linked from that second article its 61% in favour of NOT reattaching the feeding tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 George Bush signed a bill last night that would allow Schiavo's parents to file a suit in Federal Court to keep her body in a persistant vegetative state rather than to die naturally (and allegedly ascend to heaven?). The family filed an injunction right after Bush signed the paper. "Meantime, 70 percent of Americans say Congress' action was inappropriate and 67 percent thought the elected officials were trying to keep Schiavo alive were doing so more for political advantage than out of concern for her or the principles involved" http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=600091 This is just another example of the politicians using wedge issues to secure their voters. This is the type of legislation and political action that ultimately affects a small percentage of the voting public, but effectively divides them and ensures that they vote for particular people in order to make their voices heard on issues that the media/politicians have encouraged them to feel passionate about. Never mind that there are many, many issues that affect the majority of the voting public that the people they vote for may be screwing up royally! In my opinion, this is how Bush secured his seat in the Whitehouse: the religious voters were too afraid to vote for anyone else because they thought that would equate to voting for abortion, an issue that ultimately affects a small percentage of the American population. Yet Bush has demonstrated his ability to royally screw Americans out of money and lives for years to come -those issues that affect the majority get pushed aside in favor of the "Wedge Issues." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edlib Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 Interesting little snippet of propaganda on this case I found linked from Google news: http://www.lifenews.com/bio814.html In the article it makes Terri seem not only aware of what's going on, but able to communicate her wishes on the matter. Kinda makes me stop and wonder what all the debate is about if she can talk and respond to questions. If that were really the case I don't think any doctor anywhere would ever allow a tube to be removed. If these were the only news outlets that you were getting your info from then I can see why so many people are responding with horror at this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IG-64 Posted March 21, 2005 Author Share Posted March 21, 2005 I actually heard that about 30 doctors say shes in a non-vegitative state, and about 5 doctors said she's in a vegitative state, so I don't know. Oh, and i'm a christian and I should be able to tell you without explination that this talk about letting her die for "ascension into heaven" in this thread is comeplete and utter bull**** and is just an attempt to make us christians look like hyprocrites. 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 Wait a second... vegetable is a medical term? I thought it was a slang description. Couldn't they have thought up a much nicer term? Maybe her purpose is to put a bit of humanity and compassion back into the system? I was thinking something simular to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 Originally posted by IG-64 Oh, and i'm a christian and I should be able to tell you without explination that this talk about letting her die for "ascension into heaven" in this thread is comeplete and utter bull**** and is just an attempt to make us christians look like hyprocrites. 8) I was under the impression that the religious right and christians that were quoting the RR position in the Schiavo case were doing a fine job of looking hypocritical all by themselves. I was just pointing it out. Isn't heaven the goal? Isn't heaven a "better place?" Wouldn't it be logical to assume that a good christian would wish a "better place" for Terri than the state in which she is in: Before.........................................After Completely paralyzed. Unable to effectively demonstrate cognition. Permanent damage (cerebral cortices don't grow back)=permanent state. I'm saying that even though we're just worm food after death, it is preferrable to having to rely on food through a tube and someone to wipe your diapered ass for the rest of your life. I don't think there's some god out there, but if there were, this would be the case of it "calling someone home" to a heaven, and if a hell exists, it would be the bed she'll be forced to exist in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edlib Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 That's pretty much the point I was trying to make in my first post: Even if a tiny bit of Terri is still concious in there somewhere, try to imagine the life she is leading right now: unable to control her own motor functions, unable to communicate with the rest of the planet, watching her loved ones over her every day essentially giving up thier own lives for hers, and staring at the ceiling the rest of the time. Is that an existance that anybody would want to live for 15 years? How about 15 more? 30 more? She has spent almost half her life in this state... it's hard for me to belive that she would really wish for it to continue if she could communicate a choice. Her parents seem to be pinning all hope on her recovery. Personally I don't think there is any way she will recover... I belive they are setting themselves up for a further lifetime of disappointment and heartbreak, even worse than the've already been through, and for thier sake I honestly hope they fail in this. I think losing her right now would be the best thing that could happen to them. I sincerely believe they truly think are really doing what's best for thier daughter and thier family, but I really think that it would serve everybody best if they let go quickly and got on with the real stages of mourning rather than dragging it out over interminable twilight years. Any recovery she might make will be marginal at best, and would probably be even more heartrending than seeing her go relatively quickly. How long can she be kept alive in this state anyway? Does anybody know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Nine Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 Copied this off of something someone copied of off someting someone posted. - Removing her nutrients will not cause her any pain. She has no cerebral cortex and therefore cannot feel hunger or thirst. It will be painless. And anyway, it's the only legal way to let her go. - More than one court has ruled that she clearly did NOT want to live on life support, using the highest burden of proof possible to those courts. It is obviously her wish to die. - Michael can get a divorce if he wants, but he doesn't want to. He is her guardian, and feels that he is obligated to carry out her wishes. If he turns her over to her family, they will not carry out her wishes. Her father has even said he is willing to "cut off her arms and legs and attach her to a ventilator" if that means she is willing to live. - Michael receives nothing when she dies. Of the 1.2 Million malpractice suit in 1992 that was awarded to pay for her medical bills, almost all of it has been used for medical expenses. He also does not know how much left, as it is entrusted to a bank to pay out to doctors. He has repeatedly stated that if any is left, he will donate it to charity. - She is a vegetable. She does not respond to anything. The videos that her parents (illegally) made show her responding in primitive ways that are simply muscle reflexes. Doctors have stated that rubbing the back of her neck (as her mother does) can produce a "smile" like the one in the video... therefore, she is not smiling because her mother is talking to her, and she has emotions (she does not have emotions), she is smiling because her mother is rubbing the back of her neck. Anyhow, out of the four hours that they illegally recorded, we only see a few seconds. What about the countless other actions that go completely unresponded to? - Her parents are lunatics. They believe now that a speech therapist can help her talk again. She has no cerebral cortex and is severely brain damaged. She cannot talk. She has nothign to say, because she does not think. Even if she did have something to say, she couldn't, because there is no way for her brain to communicate to the muscles of her mouth that she wants to talk. Because her brain is not functioning properly. Seems to me that this would be the best way to go. And as a side note, I'm really bloody tired of all the media coverage. I love how some of the media says that "Oh noes, the government shouldn't be intervening on such a personal and subjective case that is really only the concern of those involved." That is such hypocrisy. The media eats this stuff up. Every time I turn on the TV, I see yapping idiots talking about the Schiavo case. Everytime I go on the web for news, I see poor Terri's face plastered all over the news networks. Enough already. Leave them the hell alone. It's their business and their business only. Goddamn vultures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 I agree with my Rogue-ish friend. I even saw ads on websites with things like "Do you think removing Terri's tube was right yes or no?" Just wait for them to add your free iPod offer to it like they do that Bush/Kerry crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 That post Rogue-nine copied in pretty much sums the whle thing up. Its disgraceful the way the politicians are using such a unique case to try and win voters.... people should never decide who to vote for based on a single unique situation. So is the tube back in permanently? Or just until the NEXT judge makes a decision. Aparently she was removed from a ventilator for 6 days a few years back, and two days a while before that. Then the parents managed to appeal it again. Talk about selfish parents only thinking of themselves.... (as an aside, its like in the UK at the moment where one party is threatening to withdraw from the WHOLE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT in order to prevent 1,500 travelers (in the whole country) from putting caravans where we don't them. Talk about a wedge issue that affects less than 0.1% of the population...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 Latest update: Schiavo Judge Won't Order Tube Insertion 1 minute ago U.S. National - AP By VICKIE CHACHERE, Associated Press Writer TAMPA, Fla. - A federal judge on Tuesday refused to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, denying an emergency request from the brain-damaged woman's parents. The parents' lawyer quickly filed a notice of appeal, and the woman's husband also filed new court documents. AP Photo AFP Slideshow: Terri Schiavo Right-to-Die Case Judge Won't Order Reinsertion of Feeding Tube (AP Video) The ruling by U.S. District Judge James Whittemore came after feverish action by President Bush (news - web sites) and Congress on legislation allowing the contentious case to be reviewed by federal courts. The judge said the 41-year-old woman's parents had not established a "substantial likelihood of success" at trial on the merits of their arguments. The notice of appeal was filed electronically hours later with the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (news - web sites) in Atlanta by David Gibbs III, an attorney for Terri Schiavo's parents. The notice tells the court that the full appeal will follow. That court was already considering an appeal on whether Terri Schiavo's right to due process had been violated. Even before the parents' full appeal was filed, Michael Schiavo said in a filing with the appeals court that his wife's rights would be violated if the judges ordered nutrition restored while considering whether the feeding tube, removed last Friday, should be permanently reconnected. "That would be a horrific intrusion upon Mrs. Schiavo's personal liberty, and the status quo should therefore be maintained until this court issues its final ruling," said the filing by Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos. The status quo — with the feeding tube removed — could continue for a couple of days without harming Terri Schiavo, the filing argued. Felos also told the judges he would appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) if the tube is ordered reconnected on a temporary basis. In his early morning ruling, Whittemore wrote that Schiavo's "life and liberty interests" had been protected by Florida courts. Despite "these difficult and time strained circumstances," he wrote, "this court is constrained to apply the law to the issues before it." No further hearings were scheduled before Whittemore. The Bush administration "would have preferred a different ruling," White House press secretary Scott McClellan told reporters in Albuquerque, N.M., where the president was visiting a senior center. "We hope that they would be able to have relief through the appeals process," McClellan said. While Rex Sparklin, another attorney for the parents, said the appeal was needed to "save Terri's life," Howard Simon, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) of Florida, praised the ruling. "What this judge did is protect the freedom of people to make their own end-of-life decisions without the intrusion of politicians," Simon said. Bobby Schindler, Terri Schiavo's brother, said his family was crushed. "To have to see my parents go through this is absolutely barbaric," he told ABC's "Good Morning America" on Tuesday. "I'd love for these judges to sit in a room and see this happening as well." Scott Schiavo, Michael Schiavo's brother, called the judge's decision "a good thing," and said he did not believe Congress should have intervened. "There's not a law that's made for this," Scott Schiavo said in a telephone interview. "This is something that goes on 100 times a day in our country, that people, their wish to die with dignity is not a federal issue." The tube was disconnected Friday on the orders of a state judge, prompting an extraordinary weekend effort by congressional Republicans to push through unprecedented emergency legislation Monday aimed at keeping her alive. Louise Cleary, a spokeswoman for Woodside Hospice, said she could not discuss Terri Schiavo's condition Tuesday. "To honor the privacy of all of our patients, we couldn't comment," Cleary said. Gov. Jeb Bush was described by a spokeswoman as "extremely disappointed and saddened" by the federal judge's decision not to order the tube reconnected. "Gov. Bush will continue to do what he legally can within his powers to protect Terri Schiavo, a vulnerable person," said spokeswoman Alia Faraj. Terri Schiavo did not have a living will. Her husband has fought in courts for years to have the tube removed because, he said, she would not want to be kept alive artificially and she has no hope for recovery. Her parents contend she responds to them and that her condition could improve. Court-appointed doctors say she is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery. Doctors have said she could survive one to two weeks without the feeding tube. Gibbs argued at a Monday hearing in front of Whittemore that letting Terri Schiavo starve would be "a mortal sin" under her Roman Catholic beliefs and urged quick action: "Terri may die as I speak." But Felos argued that keeping the woman alive also violated her rights and noted that the case has been aired thoroughly in state courts. "Yes, life is sacred," Felos said. "So is liberty, particularly in this country." Michael Schiavo said he was outraged that lawmakers and the president intervened in a private matter. "When Terri's wishes are carried out, it will be her wish. She will be at peace. She will be with the Lord," he said on CNN's "Larry King Live" late Monday. Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped briefly. Her collapse was later linked to a potassium imbalance believed to have been brought on by an eating disorder. A successful malpractice lawsuit argued that doctors had failed to diagnose the eating disorder. She can breathe on her own, but has relied on the feeding tube to keep her alive. According to a CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll of 909 adults taken over the weekend, nearly six in 10 people said they think the feeding tube should be removed and felt they would want to remove it for a child or spouse in the same condition. Also: Key facts in the Schiavo life-support controversy Who she is: Terri Schiavo, now 41, collapsed in her home in 1990. Her heart temporarily stopped, cutting off oxygen to her brain. Her husband, Michael, won more than $1 million from a malpractice suit two years later. The husband's lawyer said her collapse was caused by a potassium imbalance brought on by an eating disorder, although her parents say that's not true. What the dispute is about: Whether her life should be ended by withdrawing her feeding and hydration tube. The tube was taken out Friday, and her parents want it restored. Schiavo is locked in what some doctors say is a persistent vegetative state. Others, including her parents, insist she is minimally conscious because she smiles and seems to respond in other ways. Who wants to remove life support: Michael Schiavo, guardian for his wife. Before her collapse, he says, she had expressed the wish not to be kept alive artificially if the situation ever arose. Who wants to retain life support: Terri Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, who don't believe Michael Schiavo's statements about his wife's wishes. They say their daughter, a Roman Catholic, would not disobey church teachings on the matter. Why no compromise is likely: The battle between Terri Schiavo's husband and parents has been bitter. The Schindlers argue that Michael Schiavo--who has fathered two children with his fiance in recent years--is an unfit guardian and has a conflict of interest. Michael Schiavo alleges that Bob Schindler sought a share of the malpractice settlement, which he denies. The money is gone, much of it spent on legal bills related to Michael Schiavo's efforts to end life support. The legal fight: Florida courts have ruled consistently for Michael Schiavo. Florida's Supreme Court last year struck down "Terri's Law," which let Gov. Jeb Bush intervene in the case. The latest: Early Monday, Congress passed and President Bush signed a bill that gives federal courts jurisdiction regarding the withholding of "food, fluids, or medical treatment necessary" to sustain Terri Schiavo, who is named in the bill. What happens next: An attorney for Schiavo's parents has filed a request to a federal appeals court to have the tube reinserted once the bill is signed. If no court action is taken, Schiavo could be expected to live one or two weeks after the removal of the tube. From an earlier article on the same site (Yahoo news). Edit: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20050322/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman&sid=84439559 http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/chitribts/schiavobillsignedbybush&e=5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Nine Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7974198 At least is wasn't the top article on the front page. :/ edit: Damn you, Kurgan! Reuters is the more reputable news source anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 And to the people complaining that this doesn't affect anyone, I think the point here is that it sets a precedent, whatever the outcome. And legal precedent is very important in law, at least American law. Originally posted by Rogue Nine http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7974198 At least is wasn't the top article on the front page. :/ edit: Damn you, Kurgan! Reuters is the more reputable news source anyway! Jealous? I didn't know you were posting. I had to edit the post because they "updated" the article as I was posting it. One of the articles I posted was AP, so heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Exactly right Kurgan, this one woman can/will impact the whole world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Exactly right Kurgan, this one woman can/will impact America. Fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 An excerpt from the Wikipedia Entry on Terri Schaivo: In 2002, a trial was held to determine whether or not any new therapy treatments would help Schiavo restore any cognitive function. A new computed axial tomography scan (CAT scan) was done, as was an electroencephalogram (EEG). Five doctors were selected: two by Schiavo's parents, two by Michael Schiavo, and one by the court. These five doctors examined Terri Schiavo's medical records, brain scans, the videos, and Mrs. Schiavo herself. The physicians were divided in their conclusions. The two doctors selected by Schiavo's parents supported their conclusion; the two doctors selected by Schiavo's husband and the doctor appointed by the court supported Mr. Schiavo's position. Greer ruled with the latter that Mrs. Schiavo was in a PVS and was beyond hope of significant improvement. [10] (http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder11-02.txt) This is Terri Schiavo's Cat scan. Note the large 'blank' area in the center. This is a healthy CAT scan (on the left) compared to a brain with a massive tumor (on the right). Note the portions of the brains that have no activity in each of the pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Yeah, she's way gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Well, Sith, I thought about saying that, but then I thought that if the US changes, other parts of the world will follow too. It may not, but other countries will at least consider America's decision on this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Well, Sith, I thought about saying that, but then I thought that if the US changes, other parts of the world will follow too. It may not, but other countries will at least consider America's decision on this case. No we won't. You're not the center of the world you know. Back on topic: She's gone and that's that. Stop trying to keep her body alive for nothing. Crazy parents... My parents are pretty religious(not christians but still) and they told me to end their lives if something like this happened to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Well, Sith, I thought about saying that, but then I thought that if the US changes, other parts of the world will follow too. It may not, but other countries will at least consider America's decision on this case. Most people don't get upset about a retardly simple subject. She's braindead, she won't recover, even if she did somehow wake up, she'd be impossible to take care of. The only reason this discussion is even being argued is the neo-cons want more ammo for the pro-life issue. They're making this a pro-life debate even though she's nothing more than a slab of meat with machines hooked up to her to keep her "alive". I would argue a month old fetus is more alive than her. So no, I don't see why any other country would waste their time with such a stupid debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipperthefrog Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 To Tell You the truth, I found in Ecclesiastes 3:1 - 3:3: There is a time for everything. a time to be born and a time to die a time to pland and a time to uproot A TIME TO KILL AN A TIME TO HEAL. If the parents are realy that religeous, they would let her go. I really feel sorry for them all including Terri herself, rather she lives or dies either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Nine Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 The U.S. Supreme Court, restoring my faith in jurisprudence one case at a time. http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=CSUNB2YYCVEYACRBAE0CFEY?type=topNews&storyID=7997297 http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7999214 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Originally posted by kipperthefrog To Tell You the truth, I found in Ecclesiastes 3:1 - 3:3: There is a time for everything. a time to be born and a time to die a time to pland and a time to uproot A TIME TO KILL AN A TIME TO HEAL. If the parents are realy that religeous, they would let her go. I really feel sorry for them all including Terri herself, rather she lives or dies either way. Ecclesiasted, one of my favorite books in the Bible, and one of the greatest sources of wisdom in the world. Back then war was common, and murder was rampant. He was referring to that, sort of. I see how its relevant to this case however. But which time is it? To heal or kill? Who is to decide? Like said before, if any improvement is made it will be almost nothing. No we won't. You're not the center of the world you know. I never said that. Let me explain: 1. Canada... who cares about Canada? Im kidding pal, don't take it seriously. 2. Do you mean to tell me that if a situation like this occured in Canada, or anywhere else, people wouldn't fight for their loved ones? Sure, its doubtful it won't be on a scale like this... (world wide attention...) but still. I think its foolish to think that other people won't look at this case and consider it in the future, even in other countries. 3. You do have a point... however --- First I want to say I understand everyone's arguments, but I want to remind everyone its easy to say let her die, when its not your child laying there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 No, we won't take it into account. There will be a debate, but not on such a scale and we like our independence enough to bash down somebody who says:"Yeah, but the US did that, so..." with:"We're Canadians, so STFU." No seriously, this is such a minor thing, fattened up by the media and politicians who want to capitalize on the situation. It is indeed hard to let a child go, but one must think rationnally even in that situation. As such, the parents, and IMO everyone who wants her to stay "alive", aren't thinking rationnally. One must take into account what's best for their child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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