Views on Jedi

[jonathan7]

jonathan: Aki-Mundi was an exception because the popoulation of his world was very low. It had something to do with birth rates or something like that. I read that off of starwars.com I think.

 

The arrogance is reflective of human nature and the power of tradition. It is very hard to argue with tradition or to get it to change.

 

Aye I had heard that, although hadn't read that myself, although if hes married surely a Attachment will develop? But I don't see why if an exception was made in his case that Anakin couldn't of had one for Padme.

[SilentScope001]

I hate the New Jedi Order's supporting of attachments.

 

It is love that fuels the Dark Side. Love is an emotion, and emotions fuel the Dark Side. The Old Jedi Order knew this, but this New Jedi Order does not. Love is terrible, it clouds a person's mind, and it can get people to fall. Plus, love can be seen as a sort of egoism, of thinking you are superior...and a Jedi should not be superior.

 

After all, the Sith tolerate love, but they dislike it intensely. Love allows someone to be merciful. Still, it is an emotion, and by giving into your emotions, you grow more powerful in the Dark Side.

 

So, the Jedi, in an attempt to destroy the Sith, becomes the Sith themselves by embracing emotions. A great betrayal, and why I hate it.

[JediMaster12]

Aye I had heard that, although hadn't read that myself, although if hes married surely a Attachment will develop? But I don't see why if an exception was made in his case that Anakin couldn't of had one for Padme.

Probably has to do with the fact thatAki Mundi shows no attachment. Maybe he viewed it as being a necessary.

[Emperor Devon]

His species had a low rate of births, so the Council let him have several wives.

[JediMaster12]

Of course. I knew I was missing something. Thanks for pointing that out ED. You do have your moments.

[Master Kavar]

I hate the New Jedi Order's supporting of attachments.

 

Hate leads to the dark side too.

 

It is love that fuels the Dark Side. Love is an emotion, and emotions fuel the Dark Side. The Old Jedi Order knew this, but this New Jedi Order does not. Love is terrible, it clouds a person's mind, and it can get people to fall. Plus, love can be seen as a sort of egoism, of thinking you are superior...and a Jedi should not be superior.

 

Love doesn't fuel the dark side, passion does. And like Jolee said passion and love aren't the same thing. If you could take anything from RotJ it was love that saved Luke's life; love for his father to redeem him, and then finally Vader's love for his son to save him from the Emperor. Love doesn't condemn a Jedi, only the messy attachments that usually come with it. The old Jedi order decided that love was simply not worth the risks that came with it, Luke obviously had a different point of view from his own experiences.

 

After all, the Sith tolerate love, but they dislike it intensely. Love allows someone to be merciful. Still, it is an emotion, and by giving into your emotions, you grow more powerful in the Dark Side.

 

I would say love is only as tolerated as in the "dark" versions that usually come with it, lust, possesiveness, dominance, etc. Otherwise love is only a liability, one that would quickly be used against you. But love doesn't make a person strong in the dark side, in fact quite the opposite.

 

So, the Jedi, in an attempt to destroy the Sith, becomes the Sith themselves by embracing emotions. A great betrayal, and why I hate it.

 

It wasn't love that led Anakin to the dark side; it was fear and greed. Fear of losing what was important to him, and the possesiveness he held over the people in his life. He could've still loved his wife and not fallen to the dark side if he had controlled his passions, of course it didn't help that he had a Sith Lord pulling his strings most of his young life.

[SilentScope001]

Love doesn't fuel the dark side, passion does.

 

True, but I assume emotion is a sort of passion. And if love is a passion, then it fuels the Dark Side. But I am not sure if this is true or not.

 

Jolee is correct, though it was his love for his wife that did cause Jolee to spare her, indirectly causing the death of several Jedi, and later, Jolee's exile. That could be chalked up to attachments and not the love itself, but I'm not sure.

 

You're right and all your reasons are soild, and I may be wrong in presuming that love is Dark Sided. I just got used to the idea because it does sound somewhat ironic...that a thing that would look to be good has a dark side to it. But so does everything.

 

I just am a Old Jedi Order supporter, and like how they handle love, even when what they did sometimes failed. Guess I'm a Jedi Conservative .

[Jediphile]

While I understand the Old Order's rules against love, I don't agree with them. It's true that love can lead you astray, but it is folly to believe that you can just outlaw it and then have the problem go away. It's like the old jedi are ruled by fear of where emotions might take them, and fear also leads to the dark side. The problem is where love can lead you, but that danger is always there, but to stop feeling is to be inhuman. And the jedi do embrace the concepts of compassion, forgiveness and piety. They should accept love too, so that they can deal with it instead of just trying to ignore it. If nothing else, doing that will be Luke's greatest contribution to the lasting legacy of the Jedi.

 

As for the Sith, no, they don't have love. The may allow it, but I don't think it's possible for them. Love makes you do compassionate and selfless things, and among the Sith that is weakness, which is punishable only by death. They have lust and passion, but that is not the same thing as love.

 

No, I think before the New Jedi Order, love was lost to both the Jedi and the Sith - the Jedi were not allowed to embrace it, and the Sith were either incapable of it or else couldn't afford it.

[Xaris Vynn]

Well The jedi of the NJO have to make their decisions without their attachements being part of that decision.

My Statement was that the Starwars universe is always evolving and changing. I think that the attachements were allowed after RotJ basically because, all of the potential force users either already had lives and families and for luke to rebuild the order with children and if he did manage to get a parents to seperate with their children because they were force sensitive. How would he take care of all the children teach them and continue his duties to the galaxy as a whole?

 

He really could not rebuild the order one child at a time.

 

I do realize that there were exceptions to the rule before this time even Qui gon had a love interest in Tahl during the Jedi apprentice series.

 

I beleive that the Old jedi order made the policy of no attachments and getting children at a young age because it would be easier to train jedi to feel their emotions and let them go if they never knew their parents and had no atachments.

 

Love is a powerful emotion and we see what happened when Akakin could not make his decisions with out thinking about what might happen to Padame. and that his vision only came true because of his actions.

 

While the Sith had lus t and passion it was not for any living being it was for power or wealth or both.

 

The whole thing that confused the stuff out of me was the whole search your feeling lines from the movies and the books, what feeling were they searching if they were not allowed to feel any emotions such as love, hate, anger, sadness, fear.

 

I have never heard any tell a jedi not to be happy though so maybe that is what they felt.

[jonathan7]

Love is a powerful emotion and we see what happened when Akakin could not make his decisions with out thinking about what might happen to Padame. and that his vision only came true because of his actions.

 

Hmmm, its an extreme example though. Also, it was more Arrogance that caused his fall, as its a very arrogant to think you can change the future, as by taking the course of action you are you could just be causing the event you want to stop to happen (like Anakin did). Love in itself is a beautiful thing, and had Anakin taken Yoda's advice (train yourself to let go of that you fear to loose etc) then it wouldn'y of happen. IMHO love should always be beautiful, i think Padame's love for Anakin was like that, but I believe Anakins love for her was a kind of Toxic, poisonous thing if that makes sense?

 

So imagine the one you love is going to die, and the only way to save him/her is to kill 5 people to get their various body parts would you do it? Personally I would not and would try to stop anyone who would do that. Death is a part of life, its is the only thing in our lives that is certain, we will all die, so why fear that which you cannot stop, we are not God, so ultimatly we cannot stop people from dying, we can delay the inevitable, but it will happen eventually.

[ExileRevan]

I beleive the Old Jedi order was weak and dull witted. Not being able to see that Palpatine was the Sith Lord, or that Revan and Malak would eventualy take over is the Ultimate proof of the Old Jedi's incompitance. Even Mace Windu said that their ability to see through the force was diminished. The New Jedi Order is much better with Luke Skywalker, Kyle Katarn, and Corran Horn as Masters. Masters who see past the obvious picture.

[Master Kavar]

I beleive the Old Jedi order was weak and dull witted. Not being able to see that Palpatine was the Sith Lord, or that Revan and Malak would eventualy take over is the Ultimate proof of the Old Jedi's incompitance. Even Mace Windu said that their ability to see through the force was diminished. The New Jedi Order is much better with Luke Skywalker, Kyle Katarn, and Corran Horn as Masters. Masters who see past the obvious picture.

 

Oh yes, Luke is much more wiser than the Masters who came before him, no way he would miss that his own nephew is secretly a Sith Lord.

[SilentScope001]

Oh yes, Luke is much more wiser than the Masters who came before him, no way he would miss that his own nephew is secretly a Sith Lord.

 

Oh...come on! Offically, Luke's newphew is not a Sith Lord, he's a Sith Lord-in training. See?

 

It seems that every single Jedi Order seems to have some sort of fault. The Old Jedi Order are incompenent and shy away from all human emotions. The New Jedi Order are incompenent and obey every single human emotion. (Hey, a note, if the NJO is so perfect, how come it gets smashed by the Galatic Empire and Darth Krayt? And why in the world did many of the New Jedi decided to jump ship and join up with the Imperial Jedi? And for the greatest insult of them all, why in the world did the NJO cannot destroy a race of non-Force users?)

 

It is almost as if each Jedi Order is fatally flawed and unable to deal with the events so that the Dark Side can always battle, defeat, and destroy them...almost as if all of these events happen over and over for some reason, possibly to help balance George Lucas' checkbook?

[JediMaster12]

It goes to emphasize the point that nothing is perfect. There are bound to be flaws in any system. You can't satisfy everybody. It's physically impossible.

 

Love and passion aren't the same thing just like infatuation and love aren't the same thing. Sure infatuation starts to look like love but it dies quick. Love is something different.

 

Arrogance seems to be the downfall and that is because when you have a period of where everything is fine and good, you start thinking those kinds of thoughts. There is such a thing as good intentions but it is not the same as consequences.

[jonathan7]

Love and passion aren't the same thing just like infatuation and love aren't the same thing. Sure infatuation starts to look like love but it dies quick. Love is something different.

 

What would you call Anakins feelings towards Padme are though? I would say they were beyond what love would normally be about, don't you think? Would you kill a 100 kinds, and thousands of adults for one person?

[Vaelastraz]

No, actually I would call that a flaw in the story. Anakin's motives are not well thought out if you ask me.

[Prime]

How so?

[SilentScope001]

Love and passion aren't the same thing just like infatuation and love aren't the same thing. Sure infatuation starts to look like love but it dies quick. Love is something different.

 

Then what is love? The only thing that I see as love is Jolee's love for his wife and Atton's love for the female Jedi. Jolee let his wife go and slaughter countless innocent Jedi. Atton killed off the Jedi in order to preserve his secret...and because she wanted to die to save Atton from the DS. This is very heroic and a real example of love at work...But is it really useful?

 

It goes to emphasize the point that nothing is perfect. There are bound to be flaws in any system. You can't satisfy everybody. It's physically impossible.

 

You miss my point. Why nothing is perfect? Why is it that the Jedi always lose and the Sith always win? If the Force is balanced by the destruction of the DS, why does it always reappear? If the Empire was destroyed afte ROTJ, how come everyone betrayed the Republic?

 

The only reason I can see is because George Lucas and his company want to make tons of actual money, and therefore, always cause for the Jedi and Sith to kill each other in an endless cycle of warfare. The war continues between Force-Users, and the non Force-Users suffers.

 

Atton, for instance, tells the Exile that the galaxy believes that the Sith and the Jedi are just religious factions who squabble, and hurt each other. You hear it over and over again how the Non Force-Users see Jedi not as good. Kreia, having access to the future, sees this and then swears to destroy the Force and its will in order to save the galaxy.

 

This is George Lucas (or, if we wish to keep everything in a Star Wars lingo...The Force)'s universe. He can create a perfect universe if he wanted to. But he does not. Of course, I do not ask for George Lucas to create a perfect universe. But the blame does lie with him for the reason why there is a Dark Side and why the Jedi always get broken, no matter if they embrace emotion or turn away.

 

What would you call Anakins feelings towards Padme are though? I would say they were beyond what love would normally be about, don't you think? Would you kill a 100 kinds, and thousands of adults for one person?

 

And provide a distraction so Mace Windu could be killed? And fall to the Dark Side and join the Sith? And kill younglings in the Jedi Order? And attack off Obi-Wan? And even Force Choke Padme in order to break her to follow him? All of that was done to save Padme, all of that was done to help Padme, to find a cure to her illness...not realizing that it was HE that would have killed off Padme, by breaking her heart and her will to live.

 

I would argue that it is "lust", mistaken for love, that Anakin had. He had a possession, Padme, and he wanted to keep her, because she is a beautiful object. He didn't want that object to decay, die, or get stolen...and would be willing to do whatever it take...

[JediMaster12]

SilentScope: Love is different from infatuation in that love is deep rooted. I can't tell you because I never have been in love but I can equate infatuation to being a crush. I have been in an out of them, what girl can't.

 

To answer your second section, the main emphasis is on point of view. Also, if you are an analyst like me, you would notice that everything in life is cyclical. The constant warfare is a reflextion on the continuous battle of good v evil. You can't have one without the other, the theory of balance. Yeah one side wins and darkness takes over but then the light fights back. Nothing lasts forever. That is the fate of all things.

 

You speak of the view of galaxy thinking that the Jedi and Sith are the same thing. Truth be told they are the same but they focus on different ends of the spectrum. The Sith crave power to dominate, the right by might clause whereas the Jedi seek power for what is called the greater good. All goes to judgment and point of view on what is right or not.

[SilentScope001]

Nothing lasts forever. That is the fate of all things.

 

Still, I don't know. I want something to last forever, otherwise, what was the point of the Jedi's deaths? The Sith's murders? All those people that fought to destroy the Empire...their lives died in vain, as the sons and daughters of those rebels openly accept the Empire with open arms.

 

What was the point of fighting for anything at all? Nothing. I understand the theory of balance, but George Lucas has the potential to destroy it, since he runs the entire universe. He could have the universe be a perfect place, and instead, he turned it into a dystopia. Why? For the money.

 

Maybe I just complain too much, and becoming more like Kreia, the old witch. I'll shut up now.

[JediMaster12]

Again it is point of view. They fought for something that they thought was worth fighting for. It is human nature to believe in something. Maybe on a subconcious level Lucas was trying to portray human nature where we get so worked up in what we believe in that we are willing to fight for it.

 

On another note, maybe you are into cynicism and hey, that's you. This is a court of forum opinion.

[jonathan7]

Still, I don't know. I want something to last forever, otherwise, what was the point of the Jedi's deaths? The Sith's murders? All those people that fought to destroy the Empire...their lives died in vain, as the sons and daughters of those rebels openly accept the Empire with open arms.

 

What was the point of fighting for anything at all? Nothing. I understand the theory of balance, but George Lucas has the potential to destroy it, since he runs the entire universe. He could have the universe be a perfect place, and instead, he turned it into a dystopia. Why? For the money.

 

Maybe I just complain too much, and becoming more like Kreia, the old witch. I'll shut up now.

 

With regarding money making, I agree with your cynical point of view, I think with the SW:EU to me it would have made sense to have alot more fighting before the films, and then do of had a thousand years peace afterwards. The point of everything that happens in the SW Universe is up for debate.

 

Personally I'm a christian, so with regards this life I have a different opinion. With regards Anakins love I am of the following opinion; From my perspective love is sacrifice, in its purest form that is Jesus dying on the cross for our sins so we could go to heaven through him. What this means to me, is that with a relationship that Anakin should seek his happiness in Padme's happiness in other words centre his efforts within that relationship of making her happy. And Padme should do the same with reguards Anakin. Where Anakin went wrong was instead of seeking Padme's happiness he was seeking his own happiness (keeping her alive) because he couldnt be without her, which to me seems to be treating her as if shes a possession. I'm sure many of you will disagree

[JediMaster12]

You place a good point there jonanthan about love. Like what Jolee said that love could lead to rage and fear. Love though is a beautiful thing.

As to your point of having more fighting before the movies, and a thousand years peace afterward, doesn't seem right. Historically speaking, after the major goal is won, there are still battles to be fought to achieve the peace that is needed. Your idea reminds me of something that closely resembles Revelation and not a bad dream to hope on.

[Allronix]

I lost all respect for the Jedi as an institution with the prequels. Atton had the right of it. Men and women with too much power, lording on high, and clueless about the concerns and trouble of the common folk. They are harvested from birth, raised as sociopaths (no normal emotional response), and holed away in enclaves and temples for their upbringing. They have no attachments, no grounding, aside from codes and mantras that mean squat when faced with something real and messy. This is why I view Bastila as a brittle, sad mess - lovely character, but an utter mess. The Jedi say they will not know fear, but they live in constant fear. They fear so intensely that they cut their spirits and bleed to death rather than face it.

 

And on many fronts, a Jedi and Sith really are no different. Both seek to break all chains - sever all attachments - save to the Force, to which they willingly shackle themselves. (Kreia, I suspect, wanted to destroy the Force as to achieve the ultimate freedom - almost Randian). People who cannot use the Force as they are seen as livestock - a flock to be tended if Jedi; used, abused, and slaughtered as Sith. Both factions keep dirty secrets by the bushel and don't bother letting the livestock have a say. "Only a Sith sees in absolutes?" SUUUUUURRRRREEE, Kenobi. And do you want to try that "certain point of view" trick again? He was lucky that Luke inherited Padme's temper and not Anakin's.

 

Speaking of Anakin, I suspect a bigger component in his fall - even more so than Padme - was that the more he thought about it, the more he concluded that he didn't win his freedom in the podrace, just changed owners. In a case like that, the slaughter of the younglings was an atrocity, but being that far around the bend, he could have thought of it as freeing them from a slavery worse than death. After all, slaves can't marry, either. Only free men can marry and have that marriage be out in the open. A free man could go and rescue his mother from Sand People, but a slave has to stay with his master. (Hell, even the title would have raised a red alert). The Jedi put so much "Chosen One" pressure on him that he probably couldn't leave, even if he wanted to. And the harder they squeezed him, the more he went looking for any freedom he could, whether Padme or Palpatine. And, again, Anakin ends up only changing owners when he thinks he gets freedom. The true, bitter irony of Anakin Skywalker - he sought and dreamed of freedom all his life, but the only freedom he ever got was the few moments dying in Luke's arms.

 

Now, imagine for a moment if Anakin hadn't walked in, if the Jedi had managed to kill Palpatine and sieze control of the Republic. They would likely keep control of the government "until Palpatine's influence has been purged from the Senate," but who would decide when that was? Yup, the Jedi would be the ones deciding when they'd give up power...if at all. At that point, "until the Republic is safe" could be just as easily said "Until those blighted souls who can't use the Force have achieved the wisdom we have."

 

On the flip side? Well, I was doodling a scene between Carth and Mical, and Mical started talking...

 

"I know the Republic military alone cannot keep us together, Admiral. Look at the Republic itself - hundreds of species, thousands of worlds, millions of cultures and traditions. The Chancellor cannot expect unity to come through martial law any more than he expects to fill the Room of a Thousand Fountains with a sieve..."

 

"If they serve no other purpose, the Jedi are a symbol for what the Republic stands for - the protection of the weak, respect for democracy without the tyranny of the majority, defenders of the rule of justice. A Jedi can be of any race, or gender, come from any world or culture, but they are fundamentally of the Republic itself. Such a symbol can do more to save us than a hundred armies can."

 

Kreia may be of the opinion that the Repubic is merely a shell that surrounds the Jedi, but she is a Force-User and that is likely a bias. The truth may be closer to symbiosis. Kotor and the prequels drive the point that one cannot survive without the other. If the Republic falls (as it does in the prequels), the Jedi are doomed. If the Jedi are destroyed (Kotor), the Republic is equally doomed.

[JediMaster12]

You have a point there. I can see you are like the ordinary citizens after the Jedi Civil War: the Jedi and the Sith are one and the same. You emphasize the negative aspects.

The way how I see it is that the code was a good idea to start but like all things, tradition becomes the rule and experience has shown that tradition is very hard to break.The way how I view the Jedi Code is that it is a guideline, emphasis on guideline, as to how to approach decision making. Take the first part:

There is no emotion, there is peace

Yeah we are human and yeah we are going to have emotions but the idea I think is that when making a critical decision of life and death, you are supposed to think rationally. You are not supposed to let your heart run away with you. I think that the Jedi got carried away and decided that to be void of all emotion was better.

 

As for the Sith they let their emotions make their decisions for them. That is not good because there is no rationality in the choice. Often it turns into purely selfish reasons that they do things. The Jedi and the Sith are the extremes of the same thing just at opposite ends. The idea is to find balance between the two.

 

As to your point about bias, it's always there. No matter what is said, true objectivity can never be achieved because of bias. We can gain more knowledge and become less ignorant but we always operate on preseumptions.