Population caps

[darthfergie]

I think that pop-cap serves only the aim of achieving low specs. In my humble opinion, this is not such a good move. I know, the 20 number may finally be enough, no objection. But if my,yours,his computer can handle much more demanding games/programs so as, referring to EaW, we can have 70+ SDs/Cals/frigates/fighters fighting the same time on screen with blazing lasers/missiles/explosions happening all around and all the lightning/shading/anisotropic/antialasing filters set on full level, and all these running smoothly and beautifully, why should we stuck to the 20 number?

 

There should be an option to set the pop-cap (both for space and ground) to everyone's preference, exactly as everyone can twickle the graphic details.

 

I'm going to tell you why they should keep the pop cap at a relatively low number for space battles. They want units to matter.

If you have a fleet of 70 facing off against the comp's fleet of 70, do you think you'll be using the special abilities of each unit that are available? The computer will be, but you can't click the status of 70 units at once so you could pause the battle sure, but you'd be pausing the battle for a minute or so every 2 minutes making sure that all 70 units are using their special abilities properly, making sure to set up a screen so you won't be losing a wounded Mon Cal, etc. They made the game with a managable population cap. And if you think about it, It makes it more realistic to the time period too.

[Jeff]

You've got a really good point fergie. If the cap was much larger than 20, individual units would stop mattering to the player. With a lower pop cap, it is possible to have realistic SW space battles and have strategy involved with the battles, not just send in a million units to attack, which you could do if the population cap was large.

[alecsuba]

right on with that. a Lower Cap prevents the dreaded Zergling rush which is all too common in RTS games.

[FleetAdmiral AK]

I agree with you both

 

p.s the zergling rush is nothing compared to the protos high fleet!

[Athanasios]

I'm going to tell you why they should keep the pop cap at a relatively low number for space battles. They want units to matter.

If you have a fleet of 70 facing off against the comp's fleet of 70, do you think you'll be using the special abilities of each unit that are available? The computer will be, but you can't click the status of 70 units at once so you could pause the battle sure, but you'd be pausing the battle for a minute or so every 2 minutes making sure that all 70 units are using their special abilities properly, making sure to set up a screen so you won't be losing a wounded Mon Cal, etc. They made the game with a managable population cap. And if you think about it, It makes it more realistic to the time period too.

 

You got a point here. Yet, micromanagement (ie. exploit of special abilities) can be applied to group of units as well; if you have a group of 10 SDs and click on "produce TIE squadron", then all SDs will produce ties (normally). Besides, no (intermidiate or expert) player selects a bunch of units and clicks on the enemy. This could be done in old RTS where everything could actually kill everything. Most players group their units and attack with a plan. So, well grouped units do count, no matter the number (which adds up only to firepower). You just see the meaning of "unit" more widely, just like the groups of unit that currently exist. In other words, "1" troop is 4-5 troops. So, "1" SDs can be (when grouped) 10 SDs. So, a group of 10 SDs is not "lost" in a battle full of fighters and vice versa. Each unit keeps his "indentity" and abilities, as far as its grouped with others of his kind or other backup forces. This applies to real war too; a carrier is surrounded by frigates and destroyers; destroyers on their side are grouped; on both situation, nor the carrier nor the destroyers lose their abilities, actually, one backs up the other. You cannot have sparse different units covering the whole battlefield, that's suicide. Grouping is the most basic tactic on air,sea,ground. But i really cannont understand how you "group" 1 SD or Cal......

 

The 100+ simultaneous ships on screen is stated to clarify that pop cap does have a correlation with system specs. Like graphic details do. Also, when i'm talking about big pop caps, obviously i have in mind the galactic conquest mode with the 40 planets, not the single player campaigns/scenarios with 5-7 planets where 20 ships might be enough.

 

One big fleet stands for more than one stong divisions.

[Lew]

lol they should just multiply the cap and costs by 5 and everyone would be happy.

 

100 cap, and your SD now takes 5 points Here's a case where everyone would be ok with a little statistical manipulation.

 

It's the same reason online subscription games go to level 60, it makes you feel like you're getting more value than if you only took 10-20 gradients to get to the same ability level

 

hehe

[Darth_Extas]

I agree with Fleet who agrees with Meoller who agrees with...

Anyways we do have the point that having a lower pop cap will allow someone to use their units to the fullest, As well this will stop over population lag (i.e. server/graphics). For the most part it is better to have a lower pop cap.

[shadowsfm]

15 troopers equel 1 populatoin point

[xSiri_Tachix]

I think that the population limit is deceptive. I believe that it won’t be as bad as some people are making it out to be. I think most “smaller” units like fighters and ground troops will be created in groups of at least 5 to 10 and that a “unit” will only take up 1-3 population slots if any (space fighters / squads).

 

 

In land combat, the pop cap is related to which and how many reinforcement points you have under your control as an invader. The defender is restricted to a limit of 10 units but has defenses, garrisons and other means of increasing the number of units on the field without affecting the pop cap. In land Skirmish play, the pop cap is based on which and how many reinforcement points are under your control.

 

It says that the defender is limited to a 10-unit population cap, however it also says that there are other means of increasing the number of units on the field without affecting the pop cap. I think that I have figured it out. I bet that you can research upgrades to increase the number of units in your squads and this doesn’t affect the population cap. It is because the entire squad still costs the same pop but has more units within the squad.

 

I like what I’m hearing. Think about this; you painstakingly create each single unit and ironically enough you group them together in the end anyways, so why not have units that are created in squads to begin with? With the exception of vehicles and capital ships I think that this is a good idea. Less tedious micromanagement, and more strategy, and you will still get the feel of a big battle. I think its going to work out better in the end.

[shadowsfm]

i think we should start calling it company cap

[darthfergie]

You got a point here. Yet, micromanagement (ie. exploit of special abilities) can be applied to group of units as well; if you have a group of 10 SDs and click on "produce TIE squadron", then all SDs will produce ties (normally). Besides, no (intermidiate or expert) player selects a bunch of units and clicks on the enemy. This could be done in old RTS where everything could actually kill everything. Most players group their units and attack with a plan. So, well grouped units do count, no matter the number (which adds up only to firepower). You just see the meaning of "unit" more widely, just like the groups of unit that currently exist. In other words, "1" troop is 4-5 troops. So, "1" SDs can be (when grouped) 10 SDs. So, a group of 10 SDs is not "lost" in a battle full of fighters and vice versa. Each unit keeps his "indentity" and abilities, as far as its grouped with others of his kind or other backup forces. This applies to real war too; a carrier is surrounded by frigates and destroyers; destroyers on their side are grouped; on both situation, nor the carrier nor the destroyers lose their abilities, actually, one backs up the other. You cannot have sparse different units covering the whole battlefield, that's suicide. Grouping is the most basic tactic on air,sea,ground. But i really cannont understand how you "group" 1 SD or Cal......

Sure you can group the ships like Star Destroyers. But what about ships with special abilities of say "Proton Torpedo Strike" or a moral boost from another ship. Would you want your whole group of ships to fire on the same target. You see when you have a targeted special ability that's where it gets tricky. If you have 10 ships who have a missile attack capability, and about two missle attacks are more than enough per ship you're facing to cripple them. When grouped and doing a group special all 10 fire on one ship. When it would be far more efficient to fire on 5 seperate targets. Same with the moral boost. Would it not be better to spread these units throughout your fleet so that your fleet is balanced enough to meet both fighters and capital ships? Grouping like units has its merits, but it is not the end all be all to strategy. In many games you'll find grouping like units may gain you quick acess to their abilities, but when you group them they are also in formation with only the like units, thus it is much easier for counter units to rip them to shreds. Nor does grouping like units end up making you anywhere near as efficient as the computer.

Face it, the larger the struggles are, the more the computer has an advantage over the player. That's why Petro is keeping in smaller, so that they can have true AI, while still allowing a player enough reaction time to be able to control the flow of the battle without slowing it down to a crawl.

 

More units would be interesting, but I think it betrays the notion that capital ships are worth a lot. It makes them very disposable when in truth there are far less than 100 capital ships in the rebel fleet in ROTJ. Captial ships should not and could not be disposable for the rebel alliance. The Empire took the view on occasion, but only when the reward was high enough for the sacrifice they were taking (in reference to ESB asteroid belt search party of SDs and an SSD). I don't see the massive battles you desire anywhere in the movies and there are only hints at that size of battle when you get to later EU and NJO when fleets were well established, and even then the loss of a single Mon Cal could turn the tide of the battle, where as the battles you're proposing use capital ships for fodder.

[Athanasios]

Indeed, special abilities must be used with an exact meter. Wasting special abilities where you can assign only one unit to use its special ability (and if this is enough) is always better.

 

I'm just reminding what i have already told many times above, that when im talking about many ships, i refer to the galactic mode, where you must either guard the 4 corners of the galaxy effective or have good fleets freeing planets; having only one fleet of 20 pop cap limit strolling around the galaxy is just useless. If you start splitting this fleet you'll end up with minor fleets that cause no fear to the enemy who probably will try to eradicate one such fleet one after the other before they form up. As i said, one big fleet stands for more than one strong divisions.