Saber system suggestions

[JRHockney*]

For anyone who cares, a fresh version of my experimental pk3 is available at [link=http://students.cs.byu.edu/~sushi/ojp_enhanceddlls_009sushi.pk3]http://students.cs.byu.edu/~sushi/ojp_enhanceddlls_009sushi.pk3[/link]

 

Enjoy.

 

Cool, I'll try it when I have time.

[JRHockney*]

I had an idea that may have been discussed in a similar fashion before. I've talked about possibly making certain styles cause the opponents mishap meter to go up if they dont parry it, and it may or may not be a good idea to do for one or all the saber styles. But I do think that causing mishaps are too defense based and there needs to be a way of making a defenders mishap/balance bar go up.

 

One way I thought of is if you hold altattack or some other button at the end of your swing and you hit without getting parried, the opponents mishap bar goes up quite a bit (how much would be debatable) but doesnt cash in on where it is unless it maxes out (thats the attack fakes job). If you do get parried while trying this, you get slowbounced or maybe stumbled and if you get attack parried, you get knockdown. How this move is executed button and look wise is also open to debate if you guys like the overall idea.

 

Just another option for attackers to make attacking potentially more dynamic.

 

Oh, just another quick idea. How about not having normal parries cash in on your opponents mishap/balance meter and only having kicks, attack parries, and attack fakes do that? That way, you could have more control over the type of mishap your opponent does. I also might seggest making attack fakes only stopable but swings when you are in the heavybounce level of mishap.

[Maxstate]

I had an idea that may have been discussed in a similar fashion before. I've talked about possibly making certain styles cause the opponents mishap meter to go up if they dont parry it, and it may or may not be a good idea to do for one or all the saber styles. But I do think that causing mishaps are too defense based and there needs to be a way of making a defenders mishap/balance bar go up.

 

One way I thought of is if you hold altattack or some other button at the end of your swing and you hit without getting parried, the opponents mishap bar goes up quite a bit (how much would be debatable) but doesnt cash in on where it is unless it maxes out (thats the attack fakes job). If you do get parried while trying this, you get slowbounced or maybe stumbled and if you get attack parried, you get knockdown. How this move is executed button and look wise is also open to debate if you guys like the overall idea.

 

Just another option for attackers to make attacking potentially more dynamic.

 

Oh, just another quick idea. How about not having normal parries cash in on your opponents mishap/balance meter and only having kicks, attack parries, and attack fakes do that? That way, you could have more control over the type of mishap your opponent does. I also might seggest making attack fakes only stopable but swings when you are in the heavybounce level of mishap.

I think you all know my opinion on the first one and on the second one I'll just say that it promotes users of yellow and blue to spam it even more. Yellow is currently a style with no breaks or transitions between slashes, remove the mishap bar going up and it will undoubtedly become a quick spammy way to kill people.

[Darth Cariss]

I don't really see why the Saber system is getting all the attention constantly. I think the saber combat is really good as is, it's already the most complex JA saber combat I've played. Why does it need to be even more complex? It's hard enough for new people as it is. Heck, I've been playing it a lot and I'm still a nub.

 

What I really think would be great, is the side features. The little things that are FUN instead of just complicating the Saber System even more.

 

I want to see more neat features, things that make people say "Cool!". Things like improved Guns, Gadgits, maybe even my dream of better platforming.

 

Maybe I'm alone in my thinking here, but I really think OJP's saber combat is pretty good as it is. I don't think it really needs to get much more complicated.

 

In short, I'd like to see some more neat features (like the ledge grab that's already been put into OJP. Believe it or not, that's one of my favorite OJP features) instead of constant saber updates. Thanks for reading.

[UDM]

I don't really see why the Saber system is getting all the attention constantly. I think the saber combat is really good as is, it's already the most complex JA saber combat I've played. Why does it need to be even more complex? It's hard enough for new people as it is. Heck, I've been playing it a lot and I'm still a nub.

 

What I really think would be great, is the side features. The little things that are FUN instead of just complicating the Saber System even more.

 

I want to see more neat features, things that make people say "Cool!". Things like improved Guns, Gadgits, maybe even my dream of better platforming.

 

Maybe I'm alone in my thinking here, but I really think OJP's saber combat is pretty good as it is. I don't think it really needs to get much more complicated.

 

In short, I'd like to see some more neat features (like the ledge grab that's already been put into OJP. Believe it or not, that's one of my favorite OJP features) instead of constant saber updates. Thanks for reading.

Fully agreed. I think the saber system is good enough already, what's the point of having new features? There's this Chinese fable that's about this guy who's just brilliant at Art, and he took part in a competition. He drew an awesome looking snake, but then decided to impress the judges more by adding legs and hands to it, so it looks like some freak of nature. Ended up losing

 

I think it's the same thing here. It's already complex enough for a game. If I'm a n00b, I don't want to WORK first to enjoy the game. In other words, struggle to master the basics just so I can score a frag with online players. Instead, I prefer to jump straight into it and play, and get better as I go along

[Tanqexe]

I totally agree that the current saber system is pretty much complete as it is. I am kind of nostalgic for manual saberlocks, though...I was messing around with video-making today and realized that sometimes the riposte/quick locks don't really cut it. I mean, the ripostes are a great addition, but the old fashioned saberlocks sure create some nice tension.

 

Just a question...is there a way for the two players to walk around i.e. circle each other while in the saberlock animation, or is that an entirely new set of animations that would need to be done?

 

Anyway, I think with buyable saber style moves and some really minor additions, I think OJP's saber system should be left alone as is. Now Force powers...it'd be neat if players can initiate a Force Push contest for visual effect, kind of like the one that Anakin and Obi-Wan did on Mustafar. Embellishing the force powers with extra functions would add further dimension to the mod.

[JRHockney*]

*sign* Fine, I won't make anymore saber suggestions until the build after this one. We need to finish the other stuff and get a new release out anyways, and any more sabersystem talk will only slow the new release down.

 

However, I still dont believe that this saber system is a finished product or that complicated (at least after we get new simpler names for moves). And if you guys scream bloody murder the next time I bring up a saber suggestion for the build after next, I will reach through your screen and strangle you!! LOL

[Darth Cariss]

*Puts a neck guard on*

[crail227]

there are still some sketchy bugs i get with saber lock anims...like sabers not touching each other, and sometimes some of the saber anims freak out, maybe i can put some screenshots up laters

[Maxstate]

there are still some sketchy bugs i get with saber lock anims...like sabers not touching each other, and sometimes some of the saber anims freak out, maybe i can put some screenshots up laters

Usually when you're on stairs

[crail227]

i know we shouldnt be posting saber system suggestions now, but something has been really bothering me

 

im not sure if its just between bots, but that whole "in your face" style of play has been really bugging me. Specifically, the fact that two opponents get so close to each other that there sabers are going through faces, plus the whole chaotic look of it when two saberists are really close to each other.

 

i mean, gameplay wise, it's not so bad, i can parry most of hits until the bot's mishap is high enough for a stun or slow bounce, but for the most part, it just looks like a chaotic mess.

 

i dont propose a solution, but please discuss and post ideas.

[JRHockney*]

i know we shouldnt be posting saber system suggestions now, but something has been really bothering me

 

im not sure if its just between bots, but that whole "in your face" style of play has been really bugging me. Specifically, the fact that two opponents get so close to each other that there sabers are going through faces, plus the whole chaotic look of it when two saberists are really close to each other.

 

i mean, gameplay wise, it's not so bad, i can parry most of hits until the bot's mishap is high enough for a stun or slow bounce, but for the most part, it just looks like a chaotic mess.

 

i dont propose a solution, but please discuss and post ideas.

 

Well the toe to toe combat is a key part of OJP, I think I know what your talking about. I've noticed that especially when bots use purple (juyo) style, they tend to spaz in their swing really fast and do a ton of damage. They often end up hitting several times in a very short period. This is most likely a bug.

 

While I'm reporting bugs, I might as well report this another one thats been here a while but I havent said anything because it was usefulf for testing conversions. I;ve noticed that bots often do heavybounces and literally cant move until I hit them or disarm them. I think its style or swing specific though.

 

Also, Sushi's code changes (which do help with dynamics in the system but need running away penalties) kind of inspired me to create my own code changes to the mishap system. A few things have really bothered me about it since the beginning and I thought I would create a system to change them. You can find it here: http://z04.zupload.com/download.php?file=getfile&filepath=1769 Just replace your 0.0.9i or whatever pk3 you have with this one. The changes are as follows:

 

1. No more 50% random mishaps at higher mishap level unless you maxout. Only attackfakes and attack parries cash in on mishap before maxout. This gives the player more control over what mishap the opponent ends up doing and kills the last faction of randomness in this system.

 

2. Maxout and MISHAPLEVEL_FULL now only does stumble anims. This way its often not that big of a deal if you maxout since a stumble is quick and harder to hit. If you want to knock them down or disarm them, you have o kick a slowbounce, kick them with high mishap, or hit their saber in a heavybounce (conversion) for a disarm. I tried to make attackfakes on people with heavybounce level mishap, but I dont think I got that working right.

 

3. I made it so that non-parried hits also do a little mishap meter damage. 1 point mp on high dp, 2 points mp on medium dp, and 3 on low Dp. I did this because I the fact that mishaps are completely based on how much you swing spam is kind of lame and unrealistic. I can make this more or less depending on how play testing comments go.

 

4. to counter balance the mp gain of change #3 above, I set the default mp gain to 1500. You guys can play around with this one to see whats best if you want, but bare in mind that parrying still lowers your mishap by 3 points either way.

 

5. As an added incentive to try this out since alot of you didnt like the added saberlocks to attack parries, I also attackparrying causing saberlocks happen less frequently by only letting them happen when your opponent is at the lowest level of mishap (0-5). This way, Once they are at slowbounce level mishap (5-9) or above, there are no saberlocks and they are easier to kick in a slowboune without them blocking (since the saberlock cant give it away that they have to hold kickblock anymore). And yes Razor I think I finally got this to work! Yes I'm awsome! I rule! I'm.....pretty stupid for not looking at all my recent code changes to find the problem.

 

6. I made both alt attack and crouch block a kick in slowbounce, although if you hold either in a slowbounce and your opponent hits your saber with his saber, you will probably get disarmed.

 

Although these changes seem to work fine when fighting bots, the real test will come against humans so if anybody would like to lend a server for a bit sometime, I would like to test these changes with you.

 

Oh yeah, and good changes sushi, but I would suggest making mp gain stop while running so people can't just run away and regen (since the mishapregentime is between 500-750).

[{TheChosenOne}]

I don't really see why the Saber system is getting all the attention constantly. I think the saber combat is really good as is, it's already the most complex JA saber combat I've played. Why does it need to be even more complex? It's hard enough for new people as it is. Heck, I've been playing it a lot and I'm still a nub.

 

What I really think would be great, is the side features. The little things that are FUN instead of just complicating the Saber System even more.

 

I want to see more neat features, things that make people say "Cool!". Things like improved Guns, Gadgits, maybe even my dream of better platforming.

 

Maybe I'm alone in my thinking here, but I really think OJP's saber combat is pretty good as it is. I don't think it really needs to get much more complicated.

 

In short, I'd like to see some more neat features (like the ledge grab that's already been put into OJP. Believe it or not, that's one of my favorite OJP features) instead of constant saber updates. Thanks for reading.

 

I very much agree. The saber system is complicated enough for me anyway

 

More gunner vs. gunner additions/tweaks of OJP would be a great aspect. It can get kind of tedious when you have to shoot down the dodge points. I think dodge should be limited to jedi/sith only.

[Maxstate]

I very much agree. The saber system is complicated enough for me anyway

 

More gunner vs. gunner additions/tweaks of OJP would be a great aspect. It can get kind of tedious when you have to shoot down the dodge points. I think dodge should be limited to jedi/sith only.

 

They will.

 

I'd like to point out again how I and a lot of others agree that locks for ripostes should be either removed or tweaked. They're currently bull****.

They get used only to annoy opponents, to stall duels and to win matches really quick. The most easy and most commonly used way to kill someone is power slash and riposte, followed by a kick to the floor and then a lunge. Repeat 'till your opponent is dead.

 

Kick block doesn't work, 3/4th of people don't even know what kickblock is.

I thought power slash locks were okay up till now but the riposte ones really go too far. The reason the kick-lunge is abused right now is because people know exactly when to time their kick - they get a 1-2 second "get ready!!" delay right before it. It's crap, it makes fights repetetive, it isn't the slightest bit movie realistic, it's not fun and it totally ruined the latest betas for me.

 

I'm seriously thinking of just getting an older version of the saber system and putting it on the Euro servers because not only is the combat lacking in the latest one, it also causes crashes for a lot of people.

 

The crashes are caused *I think* by saberthrow. It happens to people when I do it usually. I don't think it has to do with saberthrow itself but the things saberthrow can cause. For example, take the Assaj Ventress staff hilt which can be thrown, plunge it into a wall and jump on it; insta-crash!

 

Now I know I'm going to get resistance here, but you guys really need to start brainstorming about those locks again. No, I'm not taking "turn off yer random locks" for an answer. That isn't an answer, that's jerry rigging a time bomb. Players are losing interest in the game and it's system because every duel can be won using one tactic.

 

I'm sick of locks, and so are a lot of other people that don't want to offend anyone. I'm speaking on their behalves too. Make this work, Razor.

[Darth Cariss]

I have to agree. The current locks aren't that impressive really... You can't even do anything during them to change the outcome.

 

Personally I think Kick should be more like slapping in MB. It should be used to make people who get in too close to spam attacks pay for it. I personally enjoy keeping my distance from the other fighters, rather than being so close my saber rips through thier face (without any damage of course).

[razorace]

They will.

That's still up for grabs. I think gunners will have some level of dodge to prevent insta-kills.

 

I'd like to point out again how I and a lot of others agree that locks for ripostes should be either removed or tweaked. They're currently bull****.

Are you playing with the newest code? Players now automatically block kicks at lower MP levels. As such, it shouldn't be possible to spam the power attack/kick/lunge combo.

 

So, what's the problem with reposte saberlocks?

 

For example, take the Assaj Ventress staff hilt which can be thrown, plunge it into a wall and jump on it; insta-crash!

Uh, ok. Please send me one of the saber hilts that is known to cause crashes in specific situations.

[Maxstate]

 

Are you playing with the newest code? Players now automatically block kicks at lower MP levels. As such, it shouldn't be possible to spam the power attack/kick/lunge combo.

 

So, what's the problem with reposte saberlocks?

Yes, I am. 009i is the newest? Well if you don't take my word for it, ask Vruki or Dr.Shaft. I tested it with them.

 

The problem is.. let me tabulate:

-Spammable. Too spammable. Spammable to annoyance levels.

-Can elongate duels unnecessarily. People can spam it to gain the upperhand even when in really low dp levels. Superbreaks don't work, they win the lock and buy themselves extra time without even trying.

-Can be used to end duels quickly. It's base all over again. You have to forbid people not to use the "spam ripsotes and power attacks untill your opponent bounces, kick them over and lunge them repeatedly" strategy.

It's an easy to do thing that makes all fights repetetive, easily won and most of all boring. And it's scaring away/boring away a lot of players including me.

[JRHockney*]

I very much agree. The saber system is complicated enough for me anyway

 

Well, your quoting that if to refer to my changes, I mainly just changed features to hopefully be easier and make more logical sense rather than add anything new. The uparried hits doing mp damage too just makes sense since it technically a "balance" meter anyways. Honestly, do you really think the cool mishaps we have should only be the result you swingspamming more or less? The random mishaps at different mishap/balance bar levels just took control away from the player and added an unnecessarily complicated "random" feature. Only new feature I added to this isnt even a new feature. The conversion disarms while holding kickblock have been there a long time but didnt work with the more recent code changes. My intention with these changes was only to make it more dynamic, more realistic and hopefully easier to learn.

 

 

Kick block doesn't work, 3/4th of people don't even know what kickblock is.

I thought power slash locks were okay up till now but the riposte ones really go too far. The reason the kick-lunge is abused right now is because people know exactly when to time their kick - they get a 1-2 second "get ready!!" delay right before it. It's crap, it makes fights repetetive, it isn't the slightest bit movie realistic, it's not fun and it totally ruined the latest betas for me.

 

.........Heh heh, oh yeah we fixed that last week. Sorry I didnt compile anything new for you . Could somebody else who has compiling capability make a new dll pk3 of the newer code? I'm still working on my changes and I dont want to undue them yet.

 

Personally I think Kick should be more like slapping in MB. It should be used to make people who get in too close to spam attacks pay for it. I personally enjoy keeping my distance from the other fighters, rather than being so close my saber rips through thier face (without any damage of course).

 

I actually had an idea to bring in the mb2 slap animation and move itself and work pretty much the way you described, but we havent gotten around to it porting it for experimentation yet and I doubt it will make it into the next official build unless everyone wants it. The idea was that if you stood still and pressed alt attack, it would do the spam/backhand and knock a person back a slight bit or knock them down if they where swinging.

[Doctor Shaft]

Personally, I like the saber lock system you've implemented Ace. It's cool to see, whereas in older versions there was very little locking occuring even though it seemed there definitely should have been (looking at how much saber colision happens).

 

The only problem with the repostes, as they stand, is that they always end with a "winner", and that said winner can always follow through with a kick that will always knock the opponent down. This is a cool feature, but it needs to occur far less often.

 

I wouldn't scrap repostes entirely. I think changing the conditions and outcomes is what is needed.

 

Rather than turning kick into the MB slap, I think the clashes should be used instead as a means of either keeping people distanced, or preventing a rushdown. How this would be achieved? I don't know. My thought is that clashes should be predictable, like they are now in .0.09i. I was able to successfully produce locks through a power strike. I think it's easier to initiate these locks when people stay within range and allow me to windup and slam them. If they work around dodging and parrying, it's a different story.

 

So I don't think the slap is needed. Predictable locks are an annoying enough deterrence. I just think the lock system should be changed.

 

Perhaps, while the opponents are still in somewhat equal MP levels, locks should simply result in a neutral "lock and push" mechanism." The initiator would have an advantage in terms of "winning" the push and shove the person away. If the defender meets certain conditions, they end up shoving their opponent away instead. In either case, a "saber through the face" event could be predictably prevented, and distance could be created. And someone loses DP over the matter.

 

Low Mp values could be as normal. Either stunned and ready to be knocked down with a kick, or open to a quick kill with the saber.

 

But turning kick into slap isn't a good idea. I didn't like the slap in MB. I'd rather see what can be done with the saber locks.

[razorace]

I thought I had corrected the kick blocking so that player wouldn't be able to constantly saberlock->kick spam. I guess I'll have to doublecheck that code. :|

 

I like the "lock and push" idea. I wonder if that's something that's really doable with the current animations. I'll look into it.

[Sushi_CW]

A couple of comments:

 

1. Jon, I like some of what you've done. I'm definitely happy to see more experimental tweakers. You've given me some more ideas to play with, such as tweaking overflow consequences so that overflowing the mishap bar will cause a stumble 2/3 of the time, with the other 1/3 divided evenly between disarms and knockdowns. It makes sense that stumbles should be more common than disarms and knockdowns.

I don't like the idea of making disarms/knockdowns happen ONLY if the player does something specific: that increases the learning curve drastically and makes play against bots boring. Same with removing the 50% thing: Maybe better if both players are experts, but less fun for newbies and boring against bots (I was able to swing spam wildly and almost never got parried).

At your suggestion, I also made it so that the mishap bar doesn't regen while running, and I think I like the result.

 

2. I don't like attack parries causing saberlocks either. It just plain feels wrong to me. I'm happy with attack fake saberlocks and random saberlocks, although I think the random saberlocks should be more like they were in .009f.

 

3. I like the way kicks are working in the current CVS. They seem much more balanced, and I like the fact that whether a kick is blocked or not is a factor of your mishap bar instead of any manual block. I think it works much better this way.

 

4. A bit off topic, but I haven't seen any stateside servers running for quite some time. Where is everyone?

 

5. Updated custom/experimental DLL pk3 is available here: ojp_enhanceddlls_009sushi.pk3

Latest experimental changes include no attack parry(riposte) saberlocks, stumbles more common than disarms and knockdowns, smoother mishap level changes, and no mishap recharge while running. I'm pretty happy with the gameplay balance in this version... give it a try! Source code changes available upon request. Obviously, these are changes that I would love to see in the main branch of Enhanced, but that's up to everyone else. Mostly Razor.

[razorace]

4. A bit off topic, but I haven't seen any stateside servers running for quite some time. Where is everyone?

I've been busy and I haven't had the time to do multiplayer beta testing. I guess we need to work on that.

[JRHockney*]

1. Jon, I like some of what you've done. I'm definitely happy to see more experimental tweakers. You've given me some more ideas to play with, such as tweaking overflow consequences so that overflowing the mishap bar will cause a stumble 2/3 of the time, with the other 1/3 divided evenly between disarms and knockdowns. It makes sense that stumbles should be more common than disarms and knockdowns.

I don't like the idea of making disarms/knockdowns happen ONLY if the player does something specific: that increases the learning curve drastically and makes play against bots boring. Same with removing the 50% thing: Maybe better if both players are experts, but less fun for newbies and boring against bots (I was able to swing spam wildly and almost never got parried).

At your suggestion, I also made it so that the mishap bar doesn't regen while running, and I think I like the result.

 

I'm glad you like some of those ideas. I still prefer less randomness to the system though and the 50% thing I personally believe to be more confusing to beginners than benefitial. It's just easier to understand that certain moves do certain things and more appealing since their actions have everything to do with winning a fight rather than random chance. The first negative commit I almost always hear about our system from a new person is that it "seems pretty random." I tell them differently, but the more random stuff we have in this system, the more I feel I'm lying. I might add a disarm and knockdown potential to low DP overflow mishap though

 

As far as being able to spam bots, I wasnt able to do that myself, but hopefully soon we will add an ability for bots to do attack parries randomly like their parrying rate and it will make it alot more balanced; especially if I can change the rate of attack parrying after its added. Razor and I have talked about adding that as well the ability to slowbounce kick for them, which should make it alot more balanced; especially if I can change the rate of attack parrying after its added.

 

2. I don't like attack parries causing saberlocks either. It just plain feels wrong to me. I'm happy with attack fake saberlocks and random saberlocks, although I think the random saberlocks should be more like they were in .009f.

 

I'm not overly fond of having them with attack parries either, but I like the way I have it on my settings so far.

3. I like the way kicks are working in the current CVS. They seem much more balanced, and I like the fact that whether a kick is blocked or not is a factor of your mishap bar instead of any manual block. I think it works much better this way.

 

I'd have to disagree there. It means EVERYTHING bad that can happen to you thats not DP damage, is now a factor of mishap, which is basically only a factor of your own swing spam (which in my opinion is a factor of lameness, ), which is why I made not parrying a hit also do mishap damage. Also, it makes the slowbounce conversion (disarm) almost useless since you can just kick someone in a heavybounce and its always a sure thing (rather than the conversion which you might miss or not have good enough ping to do consistantly). unless you we can create more incentive to use conversions, they will die off completely with this change. I have several other reasons for not wanting the kick block gone, but I dont have time to list them all right now.

 

5. Updated custom/experimental DLL pk3 is available here: ojp_enhanceddlls_009sushi.pk3

Latest experimental changes include no attack parry(riposte) saberlocks, stumbles more common than disarms and knockdowns, smoother mishap level changes, and no mishap recharge while running. I'm pretty happy with the gameplay balance in this version... give it a try! Source code changes available upon request. Obviously, these are changes that I would love to see in the main branch of Enhanced, but that's up to everyone else. Mostly Razor.

 

Yeah that was pretty fun. I'd be interested to see how it is against other players. While it is alot more dynamic, it unfortunately also shows the random aspects of our combat alot more clearly, which I dont like. Btw, what did you think of that change to the "not parrying hits doing mishap damage and the amount based on your DP" change I made in my code?

[Sushi_CW]

Well, I obviously like the idea that unparried hits do mishap damage to the defender, since it was one of my changes too. For me, though, it wasn't dependent on DP level, and it stays fairly small. Having it dependent on DP level is kind of nice, but I worry that it will make it hard to change the momentum in a fight if you're losing. I wasn't able to try it against humans though, so I'll reserve judgement on that.

[JRHockney*]

Well, I obviously like the idea that unparried hits do mishap damage to the defender, since it was one of my changes too. For me, though, it wasn't dependent on DP level, and it stays fairly small. Having it dependent on DP level is kind of nice, but I worry that it will make it hard to change the momentum in a fight if you're losing. I wasn't able to try it against humans though, so I'll reserve judgement on that.

 

Oh really? Cool! Fine addition there. *Coughs*HEARTHATRAZOR?!*coughs* LOL