was there even an answer?

[jedi3112]

I can see somebody sending 6 ISDs (total of 6 bomber and 12 fighter squads I believe) to a battle. After deploying the fighters and bombers the fighters go after the rebel fighters and bombers and the bombers take out as many ships as possible, MC cruisers first. The 12 fighter squads can spell certain doom for even A-wings. After a while the Empire retreats.

 

End results:

Rebel losses:

3 squads of A-wings to the fighters

1 squad of Y-wings to the fighters

2 MC cruisers to the bombers

 

Imperial losses

12 squads of fighters, to the fighters, bombers and corvette (but they're free)

6 squads of bombers (but they're free), to the fighters and corvette

No ISDs are lost, effectively the Empire has no losses after instant repair, now if the rebels also have recently lost the last of their capital ship building planets, those 2 MC cruisers can't be replaced.

 

Rebels don't have interdictor ships, so they can do nothing to stop this. Come to think of it, can you allow your enemy to retreat when you have interdictor ships? Can you forcefire (red alert uses control for this) on your own gravitywell? Can you still retreat when you have interdictor cruiser with your fleet? Do they still work when they're not on the field, but in the reinforcements list (as in you took them with you, but they haven't deployed in the first row)?

 

There are times when you want the enemy to escape, for example when defending a valuable system and the fleets are evenly matched. If they can't escape they might just win, so I'd rather let them escape if that means keeping the system.

[arkodeon]

I can see somebody sending 6 ISDs (total of 6 bomber and 12 fighter squads I believe) to a battle. After deploying the fighters and bombers the fighters go after the rebel fighters and bombers and the bombers take out as many ships as possible, MC cruisers first. The 12 fighter squads can spell certain doom for even A-wings. After a while the Empire retreats.

 

End results:

Rebel losses:

3 squads of A-wings to the fighters

1 squad of Y-wings to the fighters

2 MC cruisers to the bombers

 

Imperial losses

12 squads of fighters, to the fighters, bombers and corvette (but they're free)

6 squads of bombers (but they're free), to the fighters and corvette

No ISDs are lost, effectively the Empire has no losses after instant repair, now if the rebels also have recently lost the last of their capital ship building planets, those 2 MC cruisers can't be replaced.

 

Rebels don't have interdictor ships, so they can do nothing to stop this. Come to think of it, can you allow your enemy to retreat when you have interdictor ships? Can you forcefire (red alert uses control for this) on your own gravitywell? Can you still retreat when you have interdictor cruiser with your fleet? Do they still work when they're not on the field, but in the reinforcements list (as in you took them with you, but they haven't deployed in the first row)?

 

There are times when you want the enemy to escape, for example when defending a valuable system and the fleets are evenly matched. If they can't escape they might just win, so I'd rather let them escape if that means keeping the system.

 

Bombers are not as effective against the Mon Cal as they are to the Star Destroyers.

 

Why?

 

No Shield generator hardpoints. Sure, they still hit the insides, but that means no other ship can until the shields are down. Granted, Six Star Destroyers against Two Mon Cals is obviously in favour for the Empire, but I'm just sayin'.

 

But still, Bombers are your best friends against Capital ships. <3

[Foshjedi2004]

Bombers are not as effective against the Mon Cal as they are to the Star Destroyers.

 

Why?

 

No Shield generators. Sure, they still hit the insides, but that means no other ship can until the shields are down. Granted, Six Star Destroyers against Two Mon Cals is obviously in favour for the Empire, but I'm just sayin'.

 

But still, Bombers are your best friends against Capital ships. <3

 

The Gravity Well Ability has a problem. It isn't an ability that is automatically turned on. You have to press a button and then the Ship is stationary while the Grav Wells are active. Its a risky strategy unless you have a massive Fleet in Reserve.

[Orao]

Interdictor cruiser has the jamming ability as its primary force. She's the support ship which will prevent torpedos and missiles from hitting yours ISD and VSD.

[Ryebread]

A single correlian corvette would destroy most of those 6 tie bomber squardons before they could get in range of the Mon Cals. And I will target the engines on one or two of the ISDs first thing with my Y-Wings. If the Empire suddenly decides to retreat then the ISDs are lost. I don't see what people are whining about.

[wedge2211]

This thread illustrates a great point: there are a zillion strategies and counterstrategies to explore. One relatively minor thing like "instant" repair won't throw that off. A clever human player could really use the existing system to their advantage...be they attacking or defending.

[Athanasios]

There are no "zillion" strategies and counterstrategies, don't exagerrate. Not even in real wars.

 

And of course a clever human player will exploit the existing system to his advantage, that's one reason of the whole fuss, the "doom fleet" as some people named it.

 

EaW looks like "attack, defend, move forces around", no more, no less.

 

Freaking simplified for me, as i said. Yet another good game in the market.

[gswift]

I will wait to play the game before deciding how much I like it's features, however I can think of one good way to counter monster fleets. I'd love to see a large fleet come out of hyperspace over a system with moderate defenses and a planetary gun. If may quote Al Pacino from Scarface; "Say 'ello to my li'll friend". If you want to put your whole space force into one fleet, and jump from one of my planets to the next, be my guest. You're guaranteed to find a surprise on one of them, and I'll be looking down on you from the top of the multiplayer ladder. (or at least from someplace in the middle)

[Orao]

A single correlian corvette would destroy most of those 6 tie bomber squardons before they could get in range of the Mon Cals. And I will target the engines on one or two of the ISDs first thing with my Y-Wings. If the Empire suddenly decides to retreat then the ISDs are lost. I don't see what people are whining about.[/Quote]

 

You got the point if you force the large fleet to retreat. However with instant repairs you will not be able to incapacitate the large fleet by just dammaging some hardpoints of bigger capital ships. Either you will have to destroy completly the ship in raids (which will force you to use larger forces) either you will not launch such kind of attack at all.

[wedge2211]

There are no "zillion" strategies and counterstrategies, don't exagerrate. Not even in real wars.

Yes there are...sure, many of them are variations on similar ideas, but there are countless possibilities.

 

And of course a clever human player will exploit the existing system to his advantage, that's one reason of the whole fuss, the "doom fleet" as some people named it.

Not every successful tactic is necessarily a problem with the game engine or "cheating." If it's really a bug in the code, sure, it needs to be fixed, but if you keep getting beaten the same way over and over again, you just need to figure out a way to counterattack. The whole idea of any war game is to exploit the opponent's weaknesses!

 

EaW looks like "attack, defend, move forces around", no more, no less.

Yeah...but so does StarCraft, C&C, chess, any other strategy game. "Move forces around" encapsulates a great deal of strategy, no matter how simple. The Japanese game Go has three rules and is one of the most complex strategy games in the world.

 

Orao: Oh, just wait for the full game, watch the community, and see if it is a problem. I highly doubt that you'll be able to escape every single engagement with only damaged hardpoints--some of your ships are going to be destroyed. That's the inherent balance for the "fleet of doom:" the ships in this game get blown up really easily compared with other RTS games. Instead of your ship taking persistent damage in the form of hardpoints, your fleet takes persistent damage in the form of lost ships. The amount of time and resources required in-game to build up a fleet large enough to be truly invulnerable would probably leave your non-production planets vulnerable to smaller-scale enemy attacks, anyways, making for a losing strategy before the "fleet of doom" actually becomes a factor. It's gone gold already....wait and see.

[gswift]

In my last post I offered planetary guns as a counter to the fleet of doom. I'd like to offer another:

 

You can selectively destroy hard-points on capitol ships so that they are harmless (destroy all the guns, but let the engines and/or shields contiune to function ), but leave the ships alive to prevent reinforcement. Just destroy one ship at a time. You could destroy each new ship as it joins the battle.

 

Besides, while your monster fleet is taking one system at a time, my balanced fleets will be taking several.

 

As I said before; Please try that tactic on me. Anyone with skill will spank you ( that may exclude me ). You may beat the AI that way, maybe not, but as long as we're both playing by the same rules, I dare you to try such a simple-minded tactic on me. :-)

[Orao]

Nope you won't because of the cap system which favors the attacking player and because teh real time glaxy map which will favor the fastest plater to click on the map with the less lagg. Once the battle starts the galaxy map goes in pause mode not letting you time to react.

 

One of good advantages of the galaxy map on turn based system is the time you have to think about your next move.

 

Allied landing in Normandy against germans was prepared for years.

 

But that's another story.....

[wedge2211]

teh real time glaxy map which will favor the fastest plater to click on the map with the less lagg.

I don't think the galactic map really contains such computationally intensive material that it would lag significantly. Besides, with build times significantly slower than in the demo, it doesn't really matter how fast you click the ISD button--they'll still be built at the same rate as if you checked back on the production planet every five minutes before ordering up the fifth Destroyer in the queue.

 

Once the battle starts the galaxy map goes in pause mode not letting you time to react.

Therefore: an effective counter to your one big fleet of doom would be to launch a large number of small-scale attacks on a continual basis. While you're trying to build up a giant fleet on some planet or other, the galactic map would be pausing every thirty seconds for a mid-sized raid fleet that could swipe a poorly defended planet out from under you. While your "fleet of doom" methodically and slowly pulverizes enemy defenses one planet at a time, many of your planets will fall. Your strategy will fail for exactly the same reason why the Germans couldn't defend Normandy on D-Day: you will be single-mindedly focussed elsewhere while your enemy attacks you unexpectedly.

[Athanasios]

Your strategy will fail for exactly the same reason why the Germans couldn't defend Normandy on D-Day: you will be single-mindedly focussed elsewhere while your enemy attacks you unexpectedly.

First, Germans did know the attack on Normandy, but Hitler didn't gave Romwell the required defences he asked for. Read the extensive history facts on this.

 

Secondly, don't mess up real war events with a game, when we can't. The raid fleets won't wipe your planets out of your control, unless you have only troops guarding it and you sitting around when the invasion takes place and not running to build up defences and such.

 

Whereas in real war surprisement does happen, a "smart" AI system has some limits on how it will move around. Also, the surprise attack can be prevended when you setup satellites in orbit. And ofcourse, the creation of the "doom fleet" doesn't necessarly mean that you build the ships in one corner of the galaxy, while you control a bunch of planets on the other corner; you may advance in control of planets methodically, creating a strong core system and jumping to the nearby ones.

 

The doom fleet has as major role to wipe out big, scattered forces of the enemy, due to its overwelming power. The cost or rebuilt will be prohibiting of the defender, as soon as invasions to the unprotected planets start happening. Having only a single small squad of bombers or Z-95 in every enemy planet's orbit, you'll get notified about new space stations constructions. Also, if a raid fleet is organised somewhere, it will be matter of second for that patrol squad to take it out (defender cannot move ground forces in orbit without initiating a space battle, unless he completely evacuates the planet). So, the doom fleet will be just sitting somewhere, waiting for any "big" fleet to attack - but with all tech 1 stations going down, there never will be such one.

 

And of course, when this fleet will be jumping from system to system wreacking hacov, with no bombers to stop it from his run (instant repairs), the outcome is obvious, unless the defender has 10 hands to organise adequate defence to all the top-rated systems.

 

As i said, the doom fleet tactic has to be tested asap the game is out, both in signle and MP gaming.

[Orao]

I'm 500 % with you on this one Athanasios.

[wedge2211]

First, Germans did know the attack on Normandy, but Hitler didn't gave Romwell the required defences he asked for. Read the extensive history facts on this.

I've read primary sources. You're right, but you're distorting events. The Germans defended Normandy with units that were underequipped and of an average age much higher than the rest of the German Army. Furthermore, the Allies had bombed out many of the supply lines to Normandy--and they actually did so in such a pattern that they didn't give away the precise target of the D-Day invasion. To top it all off, the Allied Expeditionary Force ran a highly successful disinformation campaign against the German Army, including constructing a fictitious invasion army in England. The timing of the assault was a closely guarded secret. The Nazi leadership suspected an incoming attack, but they did not realize the magnitude of the impending invasion and they did not know when the assault was to occur. The net result was that because the Nazi leadership had its attention elsewhere, they didn't give credence to the available intelligence, didn't believe a successful Normandy invasion was possible, and left their forces concentrated on the Eastern Front. While they built up their forces in one region, they left another open for invasion. That was my point, that citing the D-Day invasion was actually an argument against this "fleet of doom."

 

Whereas in real war surprisement does happen, a "smart" AI system has some limits on how it will move around. Also, the surprise attack can be prevended when you setup satellites in orbit. And ofcourse, the creation of the "doom fleet" doesn't necessarly mean that you build the ships in one corner of the galaxy, while you control a bunch of planets on the other corner; you may advance in control of planets methodically, creating a strong core system and jumping to the nearby ones.

I don't know what you're getting at about 'a "smart" AI system has some limits on how it will move around,' after all, those same limits will be experienced by a human player. However, that tactics you are describing now are not the "big fleet of doom." That describes building up a single large fleet that hops from planet to planet, methodically taking out defenses. One huge flet would take a long time to build up and would concentrate your forces far too closely in one (or a few) systems. The enemy could take your outlying planets with small forces, decreasing your income base and hindering your ability to build the "doome fleet."

 

You are now describing building up one or two core fleets, but investing in planetary defenses (troops and garrisons) and intelligence gathering (satellites) rather than just concentrating on fleet-building; and spreading your forces to effectively counter small-scale enemy attacks and take targets of opportunity. Those are exactly the tactics that I've been arguing would destroy a player using the "doom fleet" approach. While they are trying to build up a single massive fleet so powerful that it will be impervious to attack, your regional patrol and garrison fleets can harass or even capture the planets making up the enemy income base while your medium-to-large core fleets can be brought in to attack hardened targets when necessary.

 

At this point, as I see it, your complaint about "doom fleet" tactics reduces to complaining that if one player has more systems, more garrisons, and bigger fleets than their opponent, they are likely to win if they attack methodically and keep their assets guarded. To that, I say: well, duh! The real game is getting to that point, not what happens afterward. In a real SP or MP match, I doubt you could get to the point where you have a single massive "doom fleet" unless the game was in its late stages anyways.

[Rebelknight]

I ll be sure to tell me uncle who was at omaha that. I am sure he will like that view of your history. Me teaching History and holding a masters in the subject can only say this. Your both right and both wrong. Some units were old men and russians, while others were vets of the russian war sent to man the beaches because they knew the invasion was coming, just not where it coming.

[quickymart]

i dont think this is supposed to be a debate on normandy and what not but in short germans did not know where the allied forces were going to land. They had two options 1. normandy and 2 calais(i think thats the spelling) Thats all im going to say on that...

 

After playing the demo numerous times i still have no idea what my stategy is going to be! there are many things you can do...go after the engines first, take out the ion cannons, or take out incoming fighters...there will be a lot of testing for everyone to figure out what they like to do...yes? no?

[Athanasios]

The net result was that because the Nazi leadership had its attention elsewhere, they didn't give credence to the available intelligence, didn't believe a successful Normandy invasion was possible, and left their forces concentrated on the Eastern Front.

To end the Normandy issue, the quoted phrase resemblances what i said about Romwell, in other words. Besides, Germans should be focusing on East Front, since those Tigers needed some petrol to move around .

 

I don't know what you're getting at about 'a "smart" AI system has some limits on how it will move around,' after all, those same limits will be experienced by a human player.

The point of the "smart" word is that AI is subtle to specific script-generated code, whereas a human's imagination has way greater limits, right? That's why there's the MP afterall.

 

At this point, as I see it, your complaint about "doom fleet" tactics reduces to complaining that if one player has more systems, more garrisons, and bigger fleets than their opponent, they are likely to win if they attack methodically and keep their assets guarded. To that, I say: well, duh! The real game is getting to that point, not what happens afterward. In a real SP or MP match, I doubt you could get to the point where you have a single massive "doom fleet" unless the game was in its late stages anyways.

Hmm, maybe i missed something here, but one argument was that "when the attacker has the upper hand and does build the doom fleet, then the defender it's a matter of few galactic days to lose...". Instant repairs can not only give the defender some breath to get organised, but also change the odds as well. At least with much maestry on the last one. Hitting for example some SDs and the nearest tech 4 station is 3 systems away, well, some events can happen in the meanwhile, since the doom fleet wil be getting less and less powerfull.

 

Besides, how could you build the doom fleet without big budget aside?

[Rebelknight]

Admin, I started this thread, but can you pleae lock it? its gotten way off base.

 

Thanks, Rebel

[Jeff]

Closed.