Death Star in General

[mattwild]

Yes, and it's bloody irritating. If only the Red Squadron timer wasn't something like 5 minutes after it gets destroyed, then maybe if they do get destroyed ONCE the Rebels might actually have a chance, rather than watching the Death Star do the rounds and blow up about 10 of your planets before you get a chance to kill it again.

[Slocket]

Even if the Rebels defeat the DS fleet (without Red5) Why does not the DS retreat back to where it came from?

 

You can still destroy the planet EVEN if the Death Star Fleet LOSES the battle BEFORE the countdown timer expires!!

 

Nothing to do about the timer count down or not, (without Red5 I am testing) the whole planet is still lost even if your Rebel Fleet beats back the Imperial fleet in time before the countdown timer expires!

 

Do you know what I mean?? This only applies to the game against the AI singleplayer.

 

This is why the Timer is so small at about 80 seconds. You can ALWAYS blow the planet up even if you lose the battle as long as Red5 is not there!!

[siatpt]

yes...how the space fights with the death star in are balanced is behond me...i say it once again...it all seems a bit pointless. its a shame really cos i thought the rest of the game was actually very good

[TK-421]

Every game has one fault that no one likes. I barely use the Death Star so it's not really a big deal.

[mikemil828]

You guys want it to be more complicated that it probably should be. what would I do so solve your problem? The Death Star cannot attack while Red Squadron is alive, once red squadron is dead THEN the countdown starts, if the rebels cannot win the match in that timeframe, boom, if they can the Death Star is forced to retreat without blowing up the planet. Nice and simple.

 

Here is how the deathstar, in my opinion should be handled:

 

If Petroglyph implemented that then late game matches will become rather predictable, huge swarms of x-wings and y-wings with nary a capital ship in sight (so they can get 'Fighter Superiority' off the bat) vs. swarms of Tartans with a few acclimators (since it is highly unlikely that they will enounter heavier stuff they can get away with this), the Rebels will rush the death star, while the Tartans rush the fighters trying to destroy as many of the fighters as possible, and any empire hero and the fighters acclimators send out are promptly shoved into a corner of a map as they incidentally are worth more than the Tartans and acclimators in this case, If the rebels bring out red squadron the death star is almost definately done for, no matter how many tartans the Empire pulls out as they will most likely be unable to destroy enough rebel fighters before Red pulls off the lucky shot. Instead of the 10 minute+ super battles most death star fights are now, such battles would be settled in less than a minute or two. Anticlimatic to be sure. People would swarm this forum and moan how that nearly all the Rebel and Imperial ships become useless when the death star comes out, and how unbalanced the entire thing is and their suggestions on how to make the game better, further aggravating DMUK.

[popcorn2008]

You guys want it to be more complicated that it probably should be. what would I do so solve your problem? The Death Star cannot attack while Red Squadron is alive, once red squadron is dead THEN the countdown starts, if the rebels cannot win the match in that timeframe, boom, if they can the Death Star is forced to retreat without blowing up the planet. Nice and simple.

Your system is actual what I thought the game was going to be like. But again I don't like it as it is unrealistic again. Why can't the Death Star move to the planet with red squad alive? That's what it did in the movie.

 

Here's how it should've been done, take these scenarios for example:

 

Rebels have -> Red Squadron

Empire has -> Death Star

Result -> Death Star can be destroyed during tactical play.

 

Rebels have -> Red Squadron

Empire has -> Death Star, Darth Vader

Result -> Death Star cannot be destroyed and red squadron will die, if it attempts to attack death star.

 

Rebels have -> Red Squadron, Millenium Falcon

Empire has -> Death Star, Darth Vader

Result -> Death Star can be destroyed during tactical play.

 

The Death Star attack run can be used after, say 20 seconds. In the same manner that the Death Star is lauched the rebels would have a button to commence Death Star run. Depending on the above circumstances, then that's how it would end up. This would make it important for an Imperial player to kill Han and chewie with Boba and make sure to not lose vader. It balances very well.

[mikemil828]

Who said that it wasn't moving towards the planet? In my example the countdown would only become important to both parties once Red Squadron is destroyed. It doesn't mean that the death star was simply staying put the entire time. If you are wondering how this pecularity can be explained in game just say that since there are so many asteroids on any particular map that they couldn't get a good estimate of how much time it would take to move the death star into a good position

[Slocket]

Mike828 I like your idea.

 

The one thing I am stuck on is even if the Rebels (without RED5 present) manage to destroy the DS fleet BEFORE the countdown timer reaches zero, the DeathStar will NOT retreat!

 

It can still blow up the planet? Am I missing something here?

[mikemil828]

In my solution if the Rebels are able to beat the Imperial Fleet within the countdown, the Death Star will flee without destroying the planet, Red Squadron or not. Assumedly if this happens some paranoid moffs would club Tarkin from behind and while he is unconcious, order the deathstar to run for it post haste. However without Red Squadron there, the countdown would start immediately like it does now (apparently they would find a easy path to a good position to fire in this case) so it will be extremely difficult to save the planet in such a situation. Which makes it crucial to have Red Squadron there if you want to save a planet.

[Slocket]

...if the Rebels are able to beat the Imperial Fleet within the countdown, the Death Star will flee without destroying the planet...

 

That is the problem in the stock vanilla game. I am playing Galactic Conquest Mode singleplayer agianst the AI. I am playing the Empire.

 

I let the Rebels defeat me quickly, I bring no reinforcements. I do not have Red5.

 

The battle ends with me losing it. But yet when I go back to the Galactic Conquest screen, the Rebel fleet is mysteriously 'gone' and thus I can still have option on the map to destroy the planet!

 

The Deathstar is NOT in retreat. Have you notice this? This is a bug I think.

 

If I lose a battle, the DS should retreat back to where it came from, but it does not. Boom goes your planet.

 

If you can verify this, it is a fix I am going to make in a new mod that changes the LUA script to make for a more logical playing game.

[mikemil828]

Of course you wouldn't have red 5, you are playing the empire are you not?

 

It isn't a bug, here is the developer's logic:

Although it doesn't look like it, The Death Star is far larger than any of the Rebel Ships and it would probably blow away any Rebel Fleet that tries to attack it and STILL be able to destroy the planet, rather than have all your ships go on a suicide mission and have you re-create all your ships, causing much more aggravation than you would suffer now, they would send your ships off to fight another day and let the death star blow up the planet.

 

My solution would make the Empire's Commanders bigger wusses than the developer's envisioned.

[Slocket]

Ok, I see what you mean for the stock game design. I should have clarified that Red5 was not present on the battlefield for the Rebel's fleet that I lose to.

 

So for starters, I should try to make it a simple change in LUA. As long as Red5 is alive and present, no countdown timer, as you stated.

 

"In my solution if the Rebels are able to beat the Imperial Fleet within the countdown, the Death Star will flee without destroying the planet, Red Squadron or not."

 

I was deducting from logic that if Red5 is not present (Red Squadron or not) the Imperial Deathstar should retreat if the Rebels beat the Empire before the countdown timer expires.

 

This only applies if Red Squadron was present and got killed, but the Rebels were still able to win before the countdown timer expires. I understand now.

 

Writing code has to be very exact.

 

But in the game as it is, as you know, the DS does not retreat. That would also need to be changed in LUA. This seems to go against the idea of the invincible DS the Devs designed but would be more fun. As you say the Moff runs away as a wussie.

[Darth_Extas]

Only Problem with the coding you speak of is if you have Grand Moff Tarkin on your team at the time, with retreat as not an option the planet will be destroyed anyways. Eventhough there is a simple place in the programming to stop this I still would coincider this a possibility against what your saying.

But fair enough your logic is very true asside from the Tarkin loop hole.

[Admiral Z]

While playing the single player Rebel campaign, the DS would destroy every planet it's been to regardless of me defeating their fleet.

[Space Goat]

I've been playing as the Empire in Conquest, and I never send the Death Star to a star system before I control its space. I send in my battle-hardened fleet of Darth Vader, a Fleet Commander, 8 Imperial Star Destroyers, and 10 Tartans to wipe out any Rebel space opposition, and only then do I send in the DS. That way, the Rebels have no chance of destroying the DS.

[Slocket]

Maybe when the DS destroys a planet, one of the Empire's own planets will revolt at random in protest. There should be some kind of political penalty....but the dimplomacy part of the game does not exist.

[mikemil828]

Maybe when the DS destroys a planet, one of the Empire's own planets will revolt at random in protest. There should be some kind of political penalty....but the dimplomacy part of the game does not exist.

 

That kinda negates the entire point of having the Death Star in the first place, to shut people up.

 

"The regional governors now have direct control over territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station."

 

Remember that quote?

[shadowsfm]

unless they counter attack

[siatpt]

with your proposed plan the gameplay might become a bit linear. if you're the empire all you would do once you have the death star is hunt and kill red squadron, if you're the rebels all you would do is have red squadron follow the death star wherever it goes and sit in a corner whilst everyone else fights, ie red squadron never actually encounters anyone in a space battle because its too important, all it would ever do would be hide in corners...

 

Also its so easily counterable if you are the empire, you just have your largest fleet accompany the death star wherever it goes.

 

But still it would be a definate improvement on what's there! So i'm all for it!

[zalcron]

i think the death star is pointless for the empire. If it is destroyed you lose the entire game which is stupid given that the empire was if anything stronger in episode V after losing its first DS. Certainly if the emperor was to die with it (like in VI) then yes the empire should collapse. As it stands i dont build one as its not worth the risk of losing it and thus the entire game.

[gswift]

i think the death star is pointless for the empire. If it is destroyed you lose the entire game which is stupid given that the empire was if anything stronger in episode V after losing its first DS. Certainly if the emperor was to die with it (like in VI) then yes the empire should collapse. As it stands i dont build one as its not worth the risk of losing it and thus the entire game.

 

Aaaahhhh. Hold on a second. When defeating the Empire, notice Vader's ship escaping in the cut-scene? The destruction of the first DS represents winning the battle, not the war. If EaW takes place around the time of episode 3.5, then maybe an expansion will take place around 4.5, or 5.5, and we haven't seen the last of vader. I can imagine a sequel/expansion that includes yoda, jedi luke, no Ben, lando/chewy, no han, etc... They made sure to leave the door open for a sequel by showing Vader's escape in the cut scene.

[Slocket]

How about increasing the DS Countdown Timer from 80 seconds to 300 seconds. If the DS is blown up, the game does not end...they are allowed to build another one.

 

If the Rebel fleet with or without Red5 defeats the Empire's DS fleet within the countdown timer expiring, the DS must retreat back to where it came from.

 

Now in order to make the fleet defeatable, I make the DS use tactical population points so the fleet is not as big. As now the DS does not count toward the tactical battle population cap.

 

This would make the game continue on, (not according to strict lore). The DS can be lost and rebuilt, a huge resource investment for the Empire, and the Rebels can use Red5 to destroy it or the Rebels fleet can beat back the DS due to the DS taking up population cap points.

 

Without being able to change the LUA scripts for now, this is what I made and seems to be pretty fun.

 

1) DS has a five minute countdown instead of 80 seconds.

 

2) DS destruction does not cause the game to end and can be rebuilt.

 

3) DS now has a Tactical space value population of 10 instead of zero.

 

4) Possible changes to build time and cost.

 

The DS has its own escort for free units anyway in stock game...two Tartans and two VSD, so this is not as bad as you think for Empire players. It gives the Rebels a decent chance to win the battle within 5 minutes, either ending with the DS destruction or forced Retreat saving the planet.

 

5) I do not know yet how to force the DS fleet to retreat if it lost a battle. As it is now, you still have the option to destroy the planet after the battle wether Red5 is present or not, or if they defeated the DS fleet in time, I think this action is locked in the LUA.

 

I find these change to be more 'fun' to play. It depends also if you like MP or the SP action.

 

6) I think uping the Raid fleet limit also so the AI or Human can have a real chance to do some damage.

 

7) Make the retreat option for the Rebels only 5.99 seconds from 10.99 to allow the Hit and Run tactics of the rebels to be more viable, also they take less damage when retreating. Changes to the AI perception equations gives the Rebels AI more of a "live to fight another day" attitude. So far, I had the space raids from Rebels be much more effective, and the ground raids a real nuisance to the Empire controlled planets. Gives the Empire a reason to just blow them up and be done with it.

 

I try to come up with new exciting solutions to enhance gameplay, instead just trolling and offer nothing but grief.

 

After some more testing I can release it as a Mod. I even seen how the Repulser Lift Jammers and Shutter Shields can be added back into the game...they work fine but the AI does not seem to build them and odd stuff; that is for another mod and needs much more testing. My goal is to bring more stuff to the game to keep it (yawn) interesting.

[siatpt]

sounds cool slocket! if it isn't possible to make the ds retreat after a lost battle then maybe somehow you could stop the destroy planet slot from coming up? i don't know which would be easier as i know nothing of modding but i agree with you that that is a real issue. thanks for your improvements, they will be appreciated!

[Slocket]

sounds cool slocket! if it isn't possible to make the ds retreat after a lost battle then maybe somehow you could stop the destroy planet slot from coming up? i don't know which would be easier as i know nothing of modding but i agree with you that that is a real issue. thanks for your improvements, they will be appreciated!

 

Thanks, and you just gave me an idea!

 

Since at the moment I cannot change the LUA to force a retreat, I can make so it is impossbile to destroy the planet on the Galactic Screen after a lost battle by moving the DS icon over the planet. I just remove the Icon Destroy GUI function.

 

This would only apply to the Human y Human MP games. The DS could only destroy the planet during a space combat tactical interface using the Count Down Fire Switch.

 

ST: You notice the SFX listed for DS Laser Activation has been removed/not working (it is there but does not work)? It was working in the demo and is in the movie. Speech "Commence Primary Ignition" something. I could swear it was in the modified Demo...just as in the destruction of Alderaan in Episode IV.

[mikemil828]

i think the death star is pointless for the empire. If it is destroyed you lose the entire game which is stupid given that the empire was if anything stronger in episode V after losing its first DS. Certainly if the emperor was to die with it (like in VI) then yes the empire should collapse. As it stands i dont build one as its not worth the risk of losing it and thus the entire game.

 

Yup, the Death Star is pointless even if you could build more than one of them (In most cases its much more beneficial to capture the planet rather than blow it up), yet nessesary to settle down the fanbase, if it was taken out, people will scream about it more than they do about the Venator, Shutter Shields, and Repulsorlift Jammers combined

 

I try to come up with new exciting solutions to enhance gameplay, instead just trolling and offer nothing but grief.

 

You're not, you are simply putting stuff back in which Petroglyph had a good reason to remove.

 

Ok on to finding a weakness in your proposal

 

Essentially how this will change the game strategy is that instead of keeping the death star alive, now they only have to keep the death star alive....for 5 minutes, as the game doesn't bank on keeping it alive anymore, the death star will pretty much be used on suicide missions to destroy a major cash source for the rebels in an dead even game. So how do you keep your fleet alive for 5 minutes with a diminished pop cap? if you are skilled enough, it's possible, all you need is a lot of Tartan Cruisers, basically pop in a Tartan cruiser when one falls and have the rebels chase after it, most rebel cruisers will not be able to easily catch it and the fighters than can catch it fall easily to the tartans guns, given enough skill you should be able to buy enough time for the death star to fire, when it does, just get defeated, no biggie, even though you lost the battle, you are in a better position to press an assault thanks to their sudden loss of cash and materials.