100% Completion

[Arátoeldar]

Not quite... In ESB, the Falcon drops Luke off on a rebel ship and shows him gazing out at the galaxy, with a sense that there are greater challenges down the road for him. In TSL, Kreia dies, and the Ebon Hawk flies off towards the Unknown Regions to fight the True Sith, who are more powerful than the false ones, and gives the sense of something greater. Those two endings seem very similar and very complete to me.

 

 

 

There's the scene where the Ebon Hawk flies off, but that is short. I never thought that was an issue, though, since the credits are the best time to reflect on the game.

 

What I don't get is why people think the endings for TSL are so incomplete and awful. Both endings for the game are very fitting for the situation, and there's no logical alternative. Would a more satisfying ending have been showing legions of Sith marching around while the Exile watches them from a high up balcony, or showing crowds of people hailing the Exile as a hero if he/she was good? Probably, but it wouldn't have been as fitting. The Exile had to go into the Unknown Regions to help Revan, so there was no time for anything like that. An ending like that would have been more flashy, but bad for the story. I don't see how a lack of glamor should make the ending for TSL worse than KotOR's.

 

 

Quoted for the Truth.

[Point Man]

My problem with the ending is the loose ends with the party members. What happened between Go-To and T3? How did Mira escape Malachor? How did a badly damaged Ebon Hawk manage to appear right on time to pick up the Exile? I can use my imagination like anyone else, but I wanted to experience those events, not supply the story from my imagination after the game was done. That is, after all, why we play RPG's instead of writing novels.

[Feagildin]

Eh, I suppose I made my post sound quite a bit too harsh, I agree with a lot of what has been posted on Obsidian's behalf, but I still hold to the basis of what I originally said. In my opinion, more testing and being able to complete all the quests is no where near to much to ask. I mean, sure I'll continue playing, and I'll prolly buy NW2 and would definitely consider buying other games from Obsidian.

 

As for those of you who are complaining about the ending: if you didn't like it, then you can't say you liked the ending for ESB, and if you can't say you liked the ending for ESB, then you can't call yourself a Star Wars fan. No offense, but that's the way I see it.

[RedHawke]

That sounds like the reaction of a player who needs everything spoon-fed to them and rushes through dialogue.

 

No offense.

Nice try... touched a nerve I see.

[Emperor Devon]

Right after the Jedi Masters on Dantoonie are killed by Kreia, your headed toward the Ravanger. When I first came aboard the Ravanger, I thought to myself "I can't possibly be fighting Nihilus now, it feels too early" & snap, I kill him.

 

After over twenty hours of gameplay, boarding the 'Ravager' didn't seem early to me.

 

What does Nihilus do other than send Visas after you?

 

He sends a company of Sith Assassins to kill you on Dxun, he consumes whole worlds, he helps exterminate the Jedi, he wipes out nearly all the Miraluka on Katarr, he has the Sith establish a base on Dxun to control beasts, he sends his soldiers to Onderon to overthrow Talia and therefore destablilize the Republic, he attacks Telos, which could also destabilize the Republic, and he tries to kill you. Oh, and he overthrows Traya, which sets up the story for the whole game. That looks like a large role to me.

 

You hear all this hype about him feeding on the force, more presence than flesh. You confront him, you kill him, its done.

 

When put like that, anything can sound unremarkable. Malak betrays you. You find some maps. You confront him, kill him, and it's done.

 

Your body somehow gets projected from the Ebon Hawk onto the ground & from there you're to find Trayus Academy.

 

That counts for nothing. T3 was able to get onto the top of the Ebon Hawk in the prologue (probably by using a ladder like the Falcon had) so I don't see why the Exile couldn't. As for finding the Trayus Academy, that's the most logical thing to happen in the story, since two of the three largest antagonists of the game are there.

 

I had trouble trying to get through this part, I ran out of medpacs real quick trying to kill these groups of 3 or more marauders. Soon I'm sitting behind the door waiting 5 minutes for my health to recover with the regenaration feature.

 

Unlike a button mashing game, RPGs can vary greatly depending on how you play them. I thought the Trayus Academy was too easy, and had to modify the stats of the enemies there to have an enjoyable experience. Since it's possible to get through that area easily, it can have just as much "fill" as a FPS.

 

Imho there wasn't enough dialogue towards the end. I don't ever get much of a chance to speak with my other party members after the Ravenger,

 

Why would you want to? There would be no purpose. Kreia wants to start executing her plans, so it would be incredibly stupid for the main characters to start chatting with each other.

 

I defeat the primary villans & get a fortune cookie from Kreia, then a brief cutscene of the Ebon Hawk flying into space. It all left an unsatisfying taste in my mouth.

 

You also get to learn about the third game, a major part of the plot gets explained, and the Ebon Hawk flies off to fight an even greater enemy, whcih sets up the backdrop for a third game. I don't see what's wrong with that. You could also describe the ending of ESB in similarly unremarkable terms. Luke fights one of the primary villains, learns a little family history, and you see the Falcon flying into space.

 

Also, your views on TSL are somewhat confusing. You don't like the combat system, you dislike the plot, you dislike the ending, you don't like one of the main villains, then you start talking about how bad the game is... so why bother playing it? You obviously don't like it.

[T.Nova]

After over twenty hours of gameplay, boarding the 'Ravager' didn't seem early to me.

 

Time scale isn't what I was refering to. More or less the fact that Nihilus never played a large role in the in-game storyline and received alot of "false hype" if you will.

 

He sends a company of Sith Assassins to kill you on Dxun, he consumes whole worlds, he helps exterminate the Jedi, he wipes out nearly all the Miraluka on Katarr, he has the Sith establish a base on Dxun to control beasts, he sends his soldiers to Onderon to overthrow Talia and therefore [destablilize the Republic, he attacks Telos, which could also destabilize the Republic, and he tries to kill you. Oh, and he overthrows Traya, which sets up the story for the whole game. That looks like a large role to me.

 

What I meant to say was the fact that Darth Nihilus does nothing personal to your character. More or less he simply tries to manipulate a few events here and there. You never actually witness Nihilus devour one of these worlds, you have no personal ties with Katarr so why should you care? Once again the fact that he establishes a Sith base on Dxun does not antagonize your character personally. Despite the fact that he does try to overthorw onderon, all he did was command the order. He tries to kill you? Alot of people try to kill you, only when you reach the bridge do you confront him face to face. Betraying Kreia once again is more or less her problem.

 

The fact that hes "evil" is not a strong motivation to kill him. Plot wise, he plays a large role but bears little strenght in character while your playing the game.

 

When put like that, anything can sound unremarkable. Malak betrays you. You find some maps. You confront him, kill him, and it's done.

 

Malak however is tied with your character alot more in K1. After doing all those things on Taris, he burns it the ground. Later on he reveals your secret, captures your potential romance, tortures her, turns her to the darkside & finally you battle it out on a climatic scale. You could almost develop a moral grudge against Malak while playing the game, but with Nihilus you confront him once, he can't feed on you because your a "wound in the force" and presents a smaller challenge than what was expected. The bout with Nihilus might as well should have been cut, theres nothing climatic about facing him and he feels like nothing more than fighting a simple Sith Assasain or Bounty Hunter that you may run across in the game.

 

That counts for nothing. T3 was able to get onto the top of the Ebon Hawk in the prologue (probably by using a ladder like the Falcon had) so I don't see why the Exile couldn't. As for finding the Trayus Academy, that's the most logical thing to happen in the story, since two of the three largest antagonists of the game are there.

 

I never meant that part to bear any significance to my statement. From the looks of it, the Exile fell out of the Ebon Hawk after crash landing. T3 simply climbed out because it had to, and you actually go through the process of doing so.

 

Unlike a button mashing game, RPGs can vary greatly depending on how you play them. I thought the Trayus Academy was too easy, and had to modify the stats of the enemies there to have an enjoyable experience. Since it's possible to get through that area easily, it can have just as much "fill" as a FPS.

 

Well this was on my first playthrough, but like I said there is a very large amount of enemies that you face on Malachor V that really doesn't deserve to be called a dialogue driven game, otherwise we would go straight to to the bout with Kreia & Sion without fighting all of those enemies.

 

Why would you want to? There would be no purpose. Kreia wants to start executing her plans, so it would be incredibly stupid for the main characters to start chatting with each other.

 

I would more or less like to find out what happened to my entire crew during the crash landing. At the very least have some final dialoge sequence while traveling the Malachor V, otherwise the game is rather boring until you finally meet Kreia who after you defeat tells you the future.

 

You also get to learn about the third game, a major part of the plot gets explained, and the Ebon Hawk flies off to fight an even greater enemy, whcih sets up the backdrop for a third game. I don't see what's wrong with that. You could also describe the ending of ESB in similarly unremarkable terms. Luke fights one of the primary villains, learns a little family history, and you see the Falcon flying into space.

 

Also, your views on TSL are somewhat confusing. You don't like the combat system, you dislike the plot, you dislike the ending, you don't like one of the main villains, then you start talking about how bad the game is... so why bother playing it? You obviously don't like it.

 

As said, the ending doesn't bother me. The events (more specifcally the stretch between the Ravanger & Trayus Academy) is what I disliked. Did I say anything about disliking the plot? or the game? What words gave you that impression. I simply gave my reasons that the end part of the game could have been polished or developed a bit better than it is.

 

Also to summarize my points of views, I have a unique perspective on the game itself. I enjoy the game, still have it on my hard drive and play it every now & then but always feel that the game could of used more polish and some changes here and there. I'm not willing to sit here and tell you the game is a perfect, polished and a 100% complete product. Nothing is for that matter, I'm just reflecting on some things I disliked about the game.

[Emperor Devon]

What I meant to say was the fact that Darth Nihilus does nothing personal to your character. More or less he simply tries to manipulate a few events here and there. {snip}

 

The fact that hes "evil" is not a strong motivation to kill him. Plot wise, he plays a large role but bears little strenght in character while your playing the game.

 

Reasons for which he is a major villain, but not the main one.

 

Well this was on my first playthrough,

 

Mine was like what I desribed, but without the mods.

 

but like I said there is a very large amount of enemies that you face on Malachor V that really doesn't deserve to be called a dialogue driven game, otherwise we would go straight to to the bout with Kreia & Sion without fighting all of those enemies.

 

The fact that you spend time killing a large number of NPCs doesn't count for much. With most RPGs, the endgame focuses heavily on combat. Fighting all those enemies also helps show you the forces Sion and Traya have under their control, and prevents an awkward sequence of jumping from the crash on Malachor right to Sion. And the rest of TSL focuses heavily on dialogue, s o I think it can still be called a dialogue-driven game.

 

I would more or less like to find out what happened to my entire crew during the crash landing. At the very least have some final dialoge sequence while traveling the Malachor V

 

There is some cut content which focuses on that, but I don't think the fact that it was cut detracts from the story too much. It's still obvious what your party members did, since the Ebon Hawk can't fly itself, and there's no logical reason for all your party members to die if you chose the Dark Side.

 

As said, the ending doesn't bother me. The events (more specifcally the stretch between the Ravanger & Trayus Academy) is what I disliked. Did I say anything about disliking the plot? or the game? What words gave you that impression.

 

The sequence between the Ravager and the end of the game and Darth Nihilus are major parts of the plot, and the combat system is a large part of the game as well. You gave me the impression that you disliked those elements of the game, which had a very large role in it.

[Darth InSidious]

Nice try... touched a nerve I see.

 

Not at all.

 

I just find denial irritating in others.

[RedHawke]

Not at all.

 

I just find denial irritating in others.

Who's in denial? Looks like a simple 'get back at me' response because I struck a nerve and irritated you. This one is another.

 

Edit: DI and I are just playing around! We aint sidious... er' serious!

[Shem]

Obsidian delivered quite a finished product, even with the lack of Q&A Testing, despite some of the cleaning that needed to be done (Like Bioware was able to do for KotOR I), the game is quite playable, and most all of the quests able to be completed. A testement to their skills IMHO.

What's interesting is I downloaded the original trailer for KOTOR back on May 22, 2002. It says in the trailer (because I still have it. ) that it was going to be released for the XBox in the Fall of 2002 and on PC in the Spring of 2003. We all know that didn't come close. The project got delayed. KOTOR got released nearly a year after it was said to be originally released. That should tell you all something.

[The Source]

My problem with the ending is the loose ends with the party members. What happened between Go-To and T3? How did Mira escape Malachor? How did a badly damaged Ebon Hawk manage to appear right on time to pick up the Exile? I can use my imagination like anyone else, but I wanted to experience those events, not supply the story from my imagination after the game was done. That is, after all, why we play RPG's instead of writing novels.

If I am right, you are talking about how KotOR I had a cutscene ending, and KotOR II had a dialouge ending. I just finished my 100th playthrough of another RPG (Vampire the Masqurade: Bloodlines), and the ending was also a cutscene. Final Fantasy also had cutscenes for the end. KotOR II was the first PC RPG that I have played that did not have a cutscene ending. (I am tired, so I hope that made scense.)

 

Should cutscenes/animations have been used to explain certain engame storyarchs in KotOR II? The only reason why I say 'Yes' is because the ending was confussing for several people. Since people are accustomed to how KotOR used animations for the ending, they should have used the same technique. When I hit the end of KotOR II, I wanted to see animations as well.

 

During my first play through of KotOR II, I became confussed as to why you were still speaking to Kreia. I couldn't think of a reason why she should have still been alive for a prolonged period of time. I thought it would have been more interesting if they animated the ending. What would have been even more effective and clear is if they used by a narrative and animation ending. Kreia's voice could narrate the fate of your companions. As Kreia is speaking through the Force to the PC, animations could have been shown of certain escapes, deaths, etc... The game could have still been a cliff-hanger, but it could have been done in a similar technique as KotOR I. I think the animations would have made things clear. As I said earlier, above, the developers should have stuck to certain consistant game executions.

 

Is it horrible to use soley dialouge for endings? I don't think it is. Only in this specific circumstance. People would have understood that there was an ending to the game, but it was a cliff-hanger. Since they used dialouge, I think they confussed a lot of people.

 

Several years ago, when I played table-top RPGs, I was learning how to be GM from three seperate people. A few of the common rules, I personally formed, that an ending needs to follow are:

1. The PCs have to have a sense of accomplishment.

2. The end of a quest needs to be properly rewarded.

I don't know if these type of table-top rules work here.

 

Regardless about how the story was concluded (cliff-hanger or not.), I think that an animated ending would have been rewarding. When I read novels, I form the images from words. When I play console/platform RPGs, I look for an animated ending. I play platform RPGs and First Person Shooters for the action, animations, and the sense of accomplishment.

 

(If anything seems weird about my writting, I haven't fallen asleep yet. )

[Prime]

Should cutscenes/animations have been used to explain certain engame storyarchs in KotOR II? The only reason why I say 'Yes' is because the ending was confussing for several people. Since people are accustomed to how KotOR used animations for the ending, they should have used the same technique. When I hit the end of KotOR II, I wanted to see animations as well.

It's fine that you want one, but it is a bit silly for people to say they were surprised at the end, IMO. The dialog with Kriea was clearly the final portion of the game, as she goes on to explain the main plot as well as the fate of most of the characters. I mean, how could people not know it was the end?

[The Source]

It's fine that you want one, but it is a bit silly for people to say they were surprised at the end, IMO. The dialog with Kriea was clearly the final portion of the game, as she goes on to explain the main plot as well as the fate of most of the characters. I mean, how could people not know it was the end?

I can see what you are saying. How can people not know that Kreia was the endgame. From how I saw it the first time around, I was looking for an animated conclusion. Since I thought Kreia's death was only the beginning of how the end would play out, I didn't pay too much attention to what she was saying. At the end of KotOR I, you killed off Malek to save the day. He was the last person you killed, but an animatic cutscene fired off. Within the last few moments of the game, there was an epic battle between the Sith and Republic. After that cutscene, there was a final scene of Revan with Bastila, or Revan with all the NPCs. I was looking for the same technique to occur.

 

I didn't think she had anything important to say. I thought it was a done deal, so I skipped her offer of prophesy/revelation. I was hoping it would skip to another animatic, which may show you catching up with your friends, and then you take off. The last NPCs you see were Go-To, Bou-Dur's Droid, and Mira.

[PoiuyWired]

Well, they way the do it could have been better.

 

Like:

 

1) giving Kreia actually a Dying model, let her sit on the floor or something.

2) at least a pause scene of Exile walking away slowly.

3) some narrator dialogue, be it important or not.

 

If you are going to pull the ESB theory on me, at least people are looking out the window for an end-movie shot.

 

Its not even time constrain anymore when it comes to that. It just... can be done better.

 

But yeah I can give you that O is not doint THAT bad of a job, despire some obvious incompleteness. No I am not talking about hidden content not fixed, but things like HK Factory for example, which is obviously hinted that something is going to happen, but did not. Then again, maybe LEV put their big stinky food on it, to stop possable things like HK47 being killed off or something. But that we will never know.

[The Source]

^^^

We should not even have known about the 'cut' content. This is one of those editing things that is done behind the scenes.

 

From the game player's perspective, we should only see and know about what we played. Anything else is extra.

 

I read this in the forums somewhere, someone said, "We will never know what this game was ment to be." <--- I don't believe this is a true statement. Players got a completed version of TSL, but pieces just needed to be cleaned up properly. From where I stand, KotOR II is very close to what the game was ment to be.

 

The mention of the HK Factory was a mistake. Players should not have know that it was scrapped until years latter in a magazine article of sorts.

 

What is driving people nuts is that the 'cut' content was left in the game files. Game players are not suppose to know what is in those files. However, modding tools openned up a new avenue, which the gamer can diesect game files. A game is not produced in a manner, which the developers take into account what modders do. Otherwords, they don't sit around and say, "Hey, lets make sure there are no extra files, so game players don't find anything."

 

In a ironic twist, modding tools and our curiosity is what found the 'cut' content. In a way, our curiosity has made contriversy over something that gammers should not know about. Players should be nieve about the files that were left behind. In an ironic twist, the modder's curiosity became our worse enemy.

 

After noticing there were errors in dialouge, modders openned up Pandora's box. Modders found the 'cut' content, and fueled the incomplete contriversy of KotOR II's story.

 

1. Obsidian's bad clean up job.

2. The modding tools & our curiosity.

 

This is one of those moments where 'Nieveness' is bliss.

 

--------------------------------

 

On a similar note: What if the developers had plans on using the 'cut' content in KotOR III? What if they said, "Oky, we have all these files, but we didn't have the time. Lets use them to get started on a third installment."

 

Ironically, they could change the original story for the 'cut' content, and use them in a different manner or purpose. HK-Factory could end up on another planet than Telos. Or, the M4 (The Droid Planet) could be redesigned and retooled into a more interesting industrial concept.

 

Since the nature of 'cut' content means 'to be removed', the whole concept of these elements could be retooled into something more interesting latter on. Science Fiction is an interesting genera. Anything can happen to those files, and they could be turned into something else that we didn't expect. Their original design could be scrapped for something much cooler.

 

We may never know their future plans for the HK-Factory or Droid Planet until KotOR III. The sky is the limit.

 

--------------------------------

 

On restoring the 'cut' content. It will be fun to see what modders come up with. However, this is only their interpretation of what the content's purpose is. After reading up on Obsidian's notes, they will attampt to add more content to TSL. Since the game is complete, they are not restoring anything. They are only pulling unfinished and edited pieces together. I would not take a modder's work as 100% cannon, for the deleted pieces were shot out a cannon.

 

The great thing about working in production is that what ever you edit can be retooled and designed for something else. What ever the original content's purpose was, they can allways be altered into another project.

 

You never know. The HK-Factory could end up being on another planet, but in the unknown regions. The Droid planet could end up being exotic, and underneath the surface it is artificial. In Science-Fiction, the sky is the limit.

[PoiuyWired]

Well, unless there are changes ... HK FACTORY IS ON THE PLANET and they even confirm in in the New Droid Book thingy, along with the news of the female Exile (and as side effect Ebon Hawk now needs Pinesol to get the stench off that jedi fanboy scumbag)

[RedHawke]

What's interesting is I downloaded the original trailer for KOTOR back on May 22, 2002. It says in the trailer (because I still have it. ) that it was going to be released for the XBox in the Fall of 2002 and on PC in the Spring of 2003. We all know that didn't come close. The project got delayed. KOTOR got released nearly a year after it was said to be originally released. That should tell you all something.

Exactly!

[The Source]

^^^

Do you think:

a. Lucas Arts could have given Obsidian more time.

b. Obsidian Ent. should have asked for more time.

c. Obsidian Ent. asked for more time, but Lucas Arts didn't give it to them.

d. Obsidian Ent. didn't give themselves enough time.

 

It sounds like the delay was either given to BioWare, or BioWare requested more time and got it. Sound very responsible to me.

[Darth InSidious]

I think, Mac, that it may well be a combination of all 4 options, myself...

 

@PoiuyWired: Um, actually, the HK factory is

 

 

onTelos, in the sublevel of the abandoned military base . That is, unless the HK-50's are all a little senile, and M4-78 decided to change architects midway through construction...

 

[Darkkender]

^^^

Do you think:

a. Lucas Arts could have given Obsidian more time.

b. Obsidian Ent. should have asked for more time.

c. Obsidian Ent. asked for more time, but Lucas Arts didn't give it to them.

d. Obsidian Ent. didn't give themselves enough time.

 

It sounds like the delay was either given to BioWare, or BioWare requested more time and got it. Sound very responsible to me.

 

Likely Bioware was granted the delay because they had more to do than just create content for a already built engine. First they had to build the 3D world engine and the entirely new and different model formats that differed from NWN.

 

Now Obsidian did make minor changes to the engine and the model format they weren't as large scale a leap as from NWN engine to SWK engine. Consider also that parts of TSL had been started by Bioware and when LucasArts transferred it to Obsidian they probably felt the time they provided was more than adequate for people to develop the actual content within.

 

I'm discovering myself that the hardest part to the game is the story and putting the story together. It's amazing when you want to do a storyline mod how few people will jump on the bandwagon to help with the story content itself. This of course drags everything down.

[Arátoeldar]

Likely Bioware was granted the delay because they had more to do than just create content for a already built engine. First they had to build the 3D world engine and the entirely new and different model formats that differed from NWN.

 

Now Obsidian did make minor changes to the engine and the model format they weren't as large scale a leap as from NWN engine to SWK engine. Consider also that parts of TSL had been started by Bioware and when LucasArts transferred it to Obsidian they probably felt the time they provided was more than adequate for people to develop the actual content within.

 

I'm discovering myself that the hardest part to the game is the story and putting the story together. It's amazing when you want to do a storyline mod how few people will jump on the bandwagon to help with the story content itself. This of course drags everything down.

 

Come on Darkkender, I know that you are smarter then this. Since you are a modder you should know that the Odyssey engine is based on the Aurora engine was used in NWN/SoU/HoU (Bioware). So it not like Bioware was staring from scratch.

[Darkkender]

Come on Darkkender, I know that you are smarter then this. Since you are a modder you should know that the Odyssey engine is based on the Aurora engine was used in NWN/SoU/HoU (Bioware). So it not like Bioware was staring from scratch.

 

 

While it was not entirely from scratch as they used portions of there previous engine to build the Odyssey engine. However the difference lies within the actual game world itself the Aurora engine was built more closely to a tilemap format engine and had much simpler models than Odyssey's which has a more indepth 3d world environment. Coming from direct experience of late there are major differences in the 2 types of 3d worlds. I've been heavily studying 3d game development for the last 8 months which leads to some incredible insight into 3d development. However the data formats for 2da files and gff files are tried and true formats for bioware so that required no real changes.

[PoiuyWired]

I think, Mac, that it may well be a combination of all 4 options, myself...

 

@PoiuyWired: Um, actually, the HK factory is

 

 

onTelos, in the sublevel of the abandoned military base . That is, unless the HK-50's are all a little senile, and M4-78 decided to change architects midway through construction...

 

You dI DO know it, and its even canonized in the New Droid Book.

 

So yeah its just the matter of kotor3 including it or not. If they DO happen to include it they may explain how the place is trashed and how HK is trapped and eventually being moved to Mustafar, and being trashed again by some anon guy.