The Mentally Deficient

[Sigundr]

You guys are unjustly cruel (except Jae Onasi). Just 'cause a kid's retarted doesn't mean he'll be a disruptive problem to society. sure, there's a chance, but can't you just let the kid live his life? i mean, c'mon. it's not his fault he's mentally challenged. you are saying that if someone's IQ is below 60 then he should be put in front of the firing squad. he could have made a breakthrough in science for his condition.

 

I mean, look at Charlie Gordon. Yes, while the stimulant didn't last long, he made major mathematical and scientifical breakthroughs, spoke god knows how many languages, and became teh smartest person in the world at that time.

[ET Warrior]

You guys are unjustly cruel (except Jae Onasi)..

Thanks for reading everyone's responses I suppose...

 

Then by those standards, EVERY abortion is murder and infanticide, and you should be speaking out against all abortion. Are you going to do that?

I didn't say I necessarily AGREED with that assesment, I was just pointing out that you were making statements that weren't true.

 

I ignore it because it is so obsurd.

absurd eh? Care to elaborate? Why is making a general proclamation that a retarded fetus should clearly be terminated because once it's fully 'human' it probably won't be useful any different from saying that we KNOW homeless people aren't contributing to society, so why not fix that problem as well? You've failed to explain that at all.

 

You also failed to explain how we're supposed to know if a fetus is going to be mentally retarded. As far as I'm aware, you can MAYBE figure that out after a great majority of the fetus has already developed. One of the key ingredients in that diagnosis is a central nervous system. So then at what point are we no longer allowed to abort a fetus before it becomes human-killing?

 

More of the Hitler card.

If the shoe fits...

[Khaliban]

What have autistics ever done? Look at some of them. Stephen Spielberg. Socrates. Isaac Newton. Thomas Jefferson. Jane Austin. Wolfgang Mozart. J. R. R. Tolkien. Albert Einstein.

 

Seriously. Name one thing they've ever done.

[TK-8252]

Why is making a general proclamation that a retarded fetus should clearly be terminated because once it's fully 'human' it probably won't be useful any different from saying that we KNOW homeless people aren't contributing to society, so why not fix that problem as well? You've failed to explain that at all.

 

That's because I don't need to explain it to you. You fully well know that a homeless bum is still a living breathing person, and killing him would be murder which is wrong. Abortion is not murder. This is very basic stuff.

 

You also failed to explain how we're supposed to know if a fetus is going to be mentally retarded. As far as I'm aware, you can MAYBE figure that out after a great majority of the fetus has already developed. One of the key ingredients in that diagnosis is a central nervous system. So then at what point are we no longer allowed to abort a fetus before it becomes human-killing?

 

Within the first trimester, an ultrasound test's detection rate for Down syndrome is 90%–95% with a false positive of 2%–5%.

 

If the shoe fits...

 

Which it doesn't, of course.

[SkinWalker]

After we get rid of all the 'tards and Corkies, lets start next with the short people.

 

Then all those too obese to sit in an airline chair. Seriously. They take up waaay too much space; eat more than the average person; use more energy; require more fabric for their clothes; they're a burden on the health care system; etc.

 

We might even consider euthanasia for toddlers that develop learning disabilities or who are children of parents in the poverty class. Studies show that these kids are less likely to get higher educations and more likely to drop out of grade school. Why let them grow up to become burdens to society or worse: prison inmates?

 

Eventually, we should be able to manipulate the gene pool and isolate a master race of citizens from which to build upon a new and improved society. Then we can work on dominating the rest of the world.

[Emperor Devon]

Some of them are. Many of them are fully able to function normally in society. Some to the point where you won't realize they're "retarded".

 

But as was stated earlier, it is difficult to tell how severe a baby's disorder is. If having abortions for all babies with disorders that result in mental deficiencies results in also getting rid of the ones with only mild disorders, so be it.

 

Exactly. Some are annoying as Hell, some are nice, some are both. Just like with regular people.

 

Except these people drain society's resources more and give less back.

 

Oh, right, of course, once you have an IQ of less than 80 you don't care if you're killed. My bad:rolleyes:.

 

No, it's just that people can't have opinions if they don't exist.

 

Yes, it can be.

 

We could kill off over 90% of the human population to result in a race of intellectuals, but it's inevitable they'd give birth to people with normal intellects, and render the whole genocide moot.

 

It'd also benefit society more if there were no elderly, seriously physically or mentally ill,

 

Except they'd be killed, rather than stopped from being born.

 

He meant philosophically. How's the attitude better, not how's the method better.

 

The attitude I'm proposing results in no deaths, then. Although I don't consider a fetus a person, so I imagine this is a matter of perpsective for some.

 

Holy ****, I KNOW THAT! I said that I knew that already and I don't need to be told that like I'm an ignorant bastard.

 

Come now, let us stay civil. Jae never insulted you.

[Sigundr]

hey, don't go givin' me that crap. you yourself said that you were pro-abortion.

[ET Warrior]

Within the first trimester, an ultrasound test's detection rate for Down syndrome is 90%–95% with a false positive of 2%–5%.

That's one disorder, one that is actually not generally THAT limiting as far as a person's productivity. Particularly children with Down Syndrome raised in a loving and accepting environment.

 

Also, it seems that the University of California Children's Hospital disagrees slightly. I actually think MOST doctors will have objections to testing EVERY pregnant woman for the full spectrum of birth defects, due to inherent risks to both mothers and the fetus.

 

 

The only reason to call for abortion in this case is because you don't really like them.

 

And if this manner of societal shaping is okay just because we're doing it with unborn children, then how about we start having IQ tests of parents before they have kids? How often do really stupid people have smart kids? Especially really stupid really poor people. Their kids will likely be a drain on the system. We could initiate a sterilization program! Nobody is getting killed this way, and society as a whole might get smarter. How fantastic!

[TK-8252]

The only reason to call for abortion in this case is because you don't really like them.

 

Not because I don't like them, but because I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry that they have to live in a world where they are inferior to others and must be treated like pets. I feel sorry for them, because they have no chance of ever living a normal life.

 

And if this manner of societal shaping is okay just because we're doing it with unborn children, then how about we start having IQ tests of parents before they have kids? How often do really stupid people have smart kids? Especially really stupid really poor people. Their kids will likely be a drain on the system. We could initiate a sterilization program! Nobody is getting killed this way, and society as a whole might get smarter. How fantastic!

 

That would be impossible first of all, and second it would be an assault on freedom. I'd never suggest there being a law that a defective fetus would be aborted... that's so authoritarian it's disturbing. Nor would I EVER think that stupid people should be banned from reproducing. Sure I would rather they not, but it's their right to do so.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

I've seen girls at the mall surrounded by their friends and with their mom getting help getting dressed. Should we kill them too? They can't decide what they want to wear, they're wasting precious social contribution time.

The shortage of camwhores that would cause would devastate the Intarnet economy.

 

 

Yeah... anyway... this topic is... stupid. The killing of people because they can't contribute to society just sounds wrong to me.

 

Also, I thought you were pro-choice Emperor Devon.

[TK-8252]

Yeah... anyway... this topic is... stupid. The killing of people because they can't contribute to society just sounds wrong to me.

 

That's not what this topic is about in the slightest.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

That's not what this topic is about in the slightest.

Killing sounds more dramatic than aborting.

[Samuel Dravis]

Human sacrifices to the god of Society seems a little backwards. As far as I can tell, Society is supposed to work for me and the other members of it, not the other way around. Kind of like government. It's for the "Greater good"? You've got to be joking; you sound like some wannabe dictator.

 

TK, you'd deprive them of even what small measure of happiness they could have? You refer to them being treated as pets. Pets seem to have a pretty happy life, and they distribute that happiness to the people around them. Of course, we have to note that they take resources like money to maintain, and they don't give much materially back. I wonder what purpose a pet has. But wait - since we feel sorry for the mentally deficient because they are less capable than we, we should take what they have? Strange sort of philosophy.

 

In addition, I've never met a mentally disabled person who was not happy. Ever. Just today, I met a woman who works at the local HEB that definitely has a few screws loose. However... when she talks to you, she doesn't care that you're a complete stranger to her. She's happy with her job and life, and when she talks she genuinely cares about what you say in response. I can't say that of many other people, even of those who go to my college and are apparently capable of higher education...

[TK-8252]

Human Fetal sacrifices to the god of Society seems a little backwards.

 

Fixed.

 

As far as I can tell, Society is supposed to work for me and the other members of it, not the other way around. Kind of like government. It's for the "Greater good"? You've got to be joking; you sound like some wannabe dictator.

 

Society works FOR you if you're a jobless bum living off welfare. Otherwise you're working as a part of society.

 

TK, you'd deprive them of even what small measure of happiness they could have? You refer to them being treated as pets. Pets seem to have a pretty happy life, and they distribute that happiness to the people around them. Of course, we have to note that they take resources like money to maintain, and they don't give much materially back. I wonder what purpose a pet has. But wait - since we feel sorry for the mentally deficient because they are less capable than we, we should take what they have? Strange sort of philosophy.

 

Right, being treated as pets when they're not pets. They're humans.

 

In addition, I've never met a mentally disabled person who was not happy. Ever. Just today, I met a woman who works at the local HEB that definitely has a few screws loose. However... when she talks to you, she doesn't care that you're a complete stranger to her. She's happy with her job and life, and when she talks she genuinely cares about what you say in response. I can't say that of many other people, even of those who go to my college and are apparently capable of higher education...

 

You'd be happy too if you didn't know any better. And also if you were being cared for by nice people all day and not forced to do anything useful like work.

[Emperor Devon]

Also, I thought you were pro-choice Emperor Devon.

 

I'm completely for abortion, and I think it would be a good way to solve this problem.

 

And everyone else, nowhere in this thread have I advocated the rounding up and shooting of the mentally deficient. Just that that there should be abortions for when a mother finds her child is afflicted with Down Syndrome or some other such disorder.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

I'm completely for abortion, and I think it would be a good way to solve this problem.

 

And everyone else, nowhere in this thread have I advocated the rounding up and shooting of the mentally deficient. Just that that there should be abortions for when a mother finds her child is afflicted with Down Syndrome or some other such disorder.

Ahhh, I misread your original post.

[Jae Onasi]

Ask any doctor or scientist and they will disagree with you.

 

This one doesn't.

 

 

Holy ****, I KNOW THAT! I said that I knew that already and I don't need to be told that like I'm an ignorant bastard.

 

I did not assume you were either ignorant or a b-----d. I was merely explaining my experience with my own children, since most people here do not yet have their own children.

 

Not because I don't like them, but because I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry that they have to live in a world where they are inferior to others and must be treated like pets. I feel sorry for them, because they have no chance of ever living a normal life.

 

Who treats them like pets? I certainly don't. They're people, and I treat them that way. When they come into my office, I give the same respect I give anyone else.

 

Not everyone's blessed with a brilliant IQ. Maybe they have skills in different areas. My mechanic didn't graduate high school, but he knows more about cars and how to repair them than I ever will know or understand.

 

A low IQ does not automatically make someone 'inferior'. I challenge you to look beyond the IQ issue and find the things that make these folks unique, and see how they do contribute to life.

 

And what's a 'normal life'? They may certainly have a simpler life, but that may not be a bad thing. I used to drive an hour or more one way to go work 8 hours in a high-stress job, then come home to try to spend time with my kids and Jimbo and do all the other things that need to get done to run a household. I'm not working that job anymore because the stress was ruining my life. I can't tell you how many other people live like that and it's considered 'normal' so that they can have their 2000 sq foot home, 3 cars, and a TV and cable in every room and 5 computers sitting around the house and maybe spend 15 minutes with their kids as they wolf down dinner to get to the next activity. It's absolutely crazy to live like that, but that's what's considered 'contributing to society'.

 

The best thing I did for my stress level and my family's stress level was decrease the number of hours I worked outside the home. I'm not making as much money, so we're not buying as much stuff or eating out nearly as often, so I suppose I'm not 'contributing to society' quite as much. However, I'm spending more time with my kids and I have a chance to _live_ life instead of merely surviving the insanity that my life was at one point.

 

 

But as was stated earlier, it is difficult to tell how severe a baby's disorder is. If having abortions for all babies with disorders that result in mental deficiencies results in also getting rid of the ones with only mild disorders, so be it.

 

So....condemn those who may really not be impaired in the hopes of preventing some of those who are really impaired? What level of contribution are you expecting in order to allow a pregnancy to be maintained? How can you possibly quantify that in a fetus? I hope our society never becomes that heartless and utilitarian. Life is so much more rich and complex than what we do to contribute to society. Not everything I do contributes to society, and it shouldn't have to. Humans are not machines that we just scrap halfway through production because some engineer discovered a design flaw.

[El Sitherino]

Using the term mentally deficient brings in a broad scope of disorders. Including dyslexia, ADHD, and nearly any socially impacting psychological disorder.

 

So chances are yeah, you've met some and not even realized it. And it also means that if your idea was seen through, the human race would probably go extinct rather quick.

[TK-8252]

This one doesn't.

 

Which one are you?

 

Who treats them like pets? I certainly don't. They're people, and I treat them that way.

 

Okay, maybe not like pets... more like toddlers.

 

When they come into my office, I give the same respect I give anyone else.

 

So if you were the boss at a movie theater or something and you had someone with Down syndrome working for you, and they spend more time taking breaks, or being confused and helpless, than actually working, you would have no problem whatsoever telling them they're a bad employee and is being fired? Then dealing with the lawsuit that follows? Retarded people are not treated as equals in society. If they did, there would be no such thing as "special education," and they'd be living on the streets without a penny to their name. But we're a caring society, as we should be, and we give special care to people with disabilities even though they're a burden.

 

Not everyone's blessed with a brilliant IQ. Maybe they have skills in different areas. My mechanic didn't graduate high school, but he knows more about cars and how to repair them than I ever will know or understand.

 

There's nothing that a retarded person can do that a normal person cannot.

 

A low IQ does not automatically make someone 'inferior'. I challenge you to look beyond the IQ issue and find the things that make these folks unique, and see how they do contribute to life.

 

How does it make you unique because you're annoying and are generally a burden on society. Just because they're nice and loving doesn't make them useful. They're about as useful as say, a dog. A dog has to be fed, let outside to take craps, and be kept on a leash.

 

And what's a 'normal life'?

 

A life where you can get up, dress yourself, take a shower, make your own food and eat, get in a car and go to your job, and work without special treatment. That's what I'd call a normal life.

 

I hope our society never becomes that heartless and utilitarian.

 

It already has. A 2002 review of elective abortion rates found that 91–93% of pregnancies with a diagnosis of Down syndrome were terminated. (Wiki)

[Emperor Devon]

So....condemn those who may really not be impaired in the hopes of preventing some of those who are really impaired?

 

All the better to lose one normal child but have five more normal ones.

 

What level of contribution are you expecting in order to allow a pregnancy to be maintained?

 

Simply that the child is not mentally retarded.

 

How can you possibly quantify that in a fetus?

 

I've read about couples who found out that their child had Down Sydrome, for example, before birth. I know there are tests that can be perfromed as early as 10 weeks. I can go into more depth about them if you'd like, but imagine you already know of them.

 

I hope our society never becomes that heartless and utilitarian.

 

If you're making an ethical/emotional appeal, you could look at it that the parents will be happier to have a regular child, and that the normal child will be happier to exist than the deficient one.

 

Life is so much more rich and complex than what we do to contribute to society.

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly. All the more reason to have people who can appreciate the riches it offers over people who can't.

 

Not everything I do contributes to society, and it shouldn't have to.

 

You are correct, not everything should. But regardless, I imagine you have contributed to society throughout your life more than the average person with Rett Sydrome.

 

Using the term mentally deficient brings in a broad scope of disorders. Including dyslexia, ADHD, and nearly any socially impacting psychological disorder.

 

True. How about 'mentally retarded' instead?

 

So chances are yeah, you've met some and not even realized it.

 

This isn't terribly relevant to the main topic, but you're welcome to think that.

 

And it also means that if your idea was seen through, the human race would probably go extinct rather quick.

 

The idea I proposed of killing off all non-intellectuals was one I did not advocate. If you're reffering to the original idea I posted, how would a very small percentage of mothers having abortions and then trying again lead to the extinction of the human race?

[Samuel Dravis]

Society works FOR you if you're a jobless bum living off welfare. Otherwise you're working as a part of society.

I consider it working for me when people decide that some social deviants are too dangerous to have around, so they get removed from society, like murderers and such. I consider it working for me when it protects my interests, like the kind of legislation that gets passed when a group of like minded people get together. I consider it working for me when the collective decides that it's a good thing to pay for programs that let that bum survive, knowing that bums who won't work are not the only beneficiaries.

 

Right, being treated as pets when they're not pets. They're humans.

They're being treated as they are capable of. I would not treat a child in the same way I would treat a man; they are very different in their capabilities, and my expectations of them are different as well. Likewise, if someone is incapable of something, that does not mean they are worthless, it just means that you're using the wrong person for the job.

 

You'd be happy too if you didn't know any better.

Do you know if you could be happier if your brain function was increased somehow? Does that make your current happiness worth less? Of course not. Two people can be completely happy even if they are quite different in ability. Each person's cup of happiness is full, even though the glassess are different sizes.

 

And also if you were being cared for by nice people all day and not forced to do anything useful like work.

The woman I mentioned was working at HEB (grocery store).

 

There is a place close to where I live for people with Down's Syndrome. They have a plant nursery business set up, and the people get to live and work on the grounds, and are taught how to live and work in an enviroment they can handle. I'm sure these guys could handle simple jobs like the ones they have there, and that's good - it frees up the more capable people for jobs that can more fully fit their abilities. Having a job that does not demand much does not neccessarily degrade the person. If they are living their life, working their job, to their fullest ability to do so, that's enough to be worthy of respect - regardless of what that job is.

 

I admit they'd probably be happier if they had nice people who worked with them, but wouldn't we all?

[TK-8252]

I consider it working for me when people decide that some social deviants are too dangerous to have around, so they get removed from society, like murderers and such. I consider it working for me when it protects my interests, like the kind of legislation that gets passed when a group of like minded people get together. I consider it working for me when the collective decides that it's a good thing to pay for programs that let that bum survive, knowing that bums who won't work are not the only beneficiaries.

 

That's not society, that's government! Society is brutal and heartless... much like myself it seems.

 

They're being treated as they are capable of. I would not treat a child in the same way I would treat a man; they are very different in their capabilities, and my expectations of them are different as well. Likewise, if someone is incapable of something, that does not mean they are worthless, it just means that you're using the wrong person for the job.

 

They do jobs that you could literally train a monkey to do. Imagine how awesome it would be to have a monkey working as a ticket collector at a movie theater. It wouldn't be the greatest employee, but hey, at least it wouldn't ask for a paycheck.

 

The woman I mentioned was working at HEB (grocery store).

 

There is a place close to where I live for people with Down's Syndrome. They have a plant nursery business set up, and the people get to live and work on the grounds, and are taught how to live and work in an enviroment they can handle. I'm sure these guys could handle simple jobs like the ones they have there, and that's good - it frees up the more capable people for jobs that can more fully fit their abilities. Having a job that does not demand much does not neccessarily degrade the person. If they are living their life, working their job, to their fullest ability to do so, that's enough to be worthy of respect - regardless of what that job is.

 

Yeah, and they have those jobs either because the boss is willing to help the people, or the boss is afraid of being sued for discrimination.

[El Sitherino]

Yeah, and they have those jobs either because the boss is willing to help the people, or the boss is afraid of being sued for discrimination.

So... kind of like every employment opportunity.

 

Face it, there's no logical reason to terminate the retarded. Like any human being, if given the opportunity to learn, they will grown and expand their use.

 

Provide evidence, cold hard facts, to support the claim that they are a burden on society in any fashion more severe than the average person.

[ET Warrior]

You know who I feel sorry for? Poor stupid kids. Seriously now. They don't have much money so they have really crappy toys and clothes, they're not smart so they'll get picked on in school most likely. (The crappy clothes don't help either). They'll probably just drop out of school, work at a menial job that we could train monkeys to do, and create more poor stupid kids.

 

Sure, they might actually be really happy, have a loving home, meet up with another stupid poor person of the opposite or same gender and live out the rest of their life in sweet bliss, but they're only happy because they don't know any better.

 

So why am I not allowed my "sterilize poor stupid people" policy?

 

you could look at it that the parents will be happier to have a regular child

Did you gloss over the part where I told you that was quite untrue? Because that's not true at all. I have a cousin who has one 'normal' and two mentally retarded children. They love all three of them completely, and couldn't possibly be happier, and wouldn't want any of them to be any different. I suppose I cannot speak for your parents, but I guaranTEE my parents would love me NO LESS than they do now were I completely retarded.

 

A life where you can get up, dress yourself, take a shower, make your own food and eat, get in a car and go to your job, and work without special treatment. That's what I'd call a normal life.

Poor, poor stephen hawking. Unable to lead a normal life. Treated like a pet / toddler. It makes me weep.

 

Yeah, and they have those jobs either because the boss is willing to help the people, or the boss is afraid of being sued for discrimination.

yeah! And that hispanic guy only has a job because of Affirmative Action! And that woman only has her job because she has nice perky boobs. And that kid only got the job because his dad works there. And this could go on, but I hope I've made my point.

 

They're about as useful as say, a dog.

We gonna start aborting dog fetus' too now? Useless to society, away they go?

 

And still nobody has explained how we can figure out any other "mental disorders" aside from Down Syndrome whilst still in the womb, prior to the development of a Central Nervous System. It really sounds like this is just a ploy to get rid of people with Down Syndrome.

 

Edit -

There's nothing that a retarded person can do that a normal person cannot.

Well...duh? Being retarded doesn't make them super-people, able to do the jobs no mortal man can. There's nothing a normal person can do that a normal person cannot either. This means nothing. They can still DO JOBS. They still function in society. Sure, some don't. Some 'normal' people don't either. Sure, there are some jobs 'normal' people can do that retarded people cannot. There are jobs that I can do that I will imagine many of you cannot.

[Jae Onasi]

All the better to lose one normal child but have five more normal ones.

 

But what if you can't have anymore? Abortion can affect fertility.

 

 

I've read about couples who found out that their child had Down Sydrome, for example, before birth. I know there are tests that can be perfromed as early as 10 weeks. I can go into more depth about them if you'd like, but imagine you already know of them.

 

Yep, you hear all about them when you get pregnant. I cheerfully ignored nearly all of the optional tests, too. It wasn't going to make an iota of difference in our (hubby and me) decision to bear our child.

 

Amnios and CVS can determine the presence of trisomy-21 and other genetic disorders. However, it can't determine or even predict the functional level of that child. Some kids will be very impaired, some will be impaired very little if at all. We don't have anything that says 'this fetus is going to develop into someone with a normal life' and 'this fetus will grow into a person who will be so impaired as to need to live in an institution.

You can detect an abnormal gene pattern, but how much that gene pattern penetrates and how strongly it's expressed can vary so widely it's impossible to predict what the outcome will be.