Question About Religion

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Would you want your kids to see a naked woman? Of course not. Neither do all the other (reasonable) parents out there.

Prude alert:rolleyes:.

 

You can't question God wtih such things as "why is there pain and suffering" because you'll never get a complete answer. God Himself probably won't respond to you, so what's the point in asking the never-going-to-be answered question?

If God exists, you sure as Heck should be asking that question yourself.

 

As for the original question of the thread, no I don't believe that you will go to Hell for a "justified" murder (though who's to say it's justified?).

Exactly. Heck, you can carry out a Holocaust like Hitler did and go to Heaven, as long as you convert on your death-bed. To go to Hell, you need to carry out some horrific crime like not being a Christian.

 

Nice religion, Christianity.

 

3. A moral framework cannot exist without an absolute standard. There is no moral absolute in atheism

Nor is there one in Christianity. Tonnes of morals in your religion have been turned down over the years.

 

If there is no God, the person who determines what's right and wrong is the individual, creating moral relativism.

What's so wrong with that? Me determining what's right and wrong? Us as a society adapting, constantly updating our laws to fit changing environments rather than sticking with a two millenia old book?

 

I don't see the problem.

 

Without any frame of reference to determine right and wrong, things like (for extreme examples) pedophilia and infanticide are no more right or wrong than any other activity, because someone will say 'well, it's right for _me_'.

The concept of altruism is impossible in a purely 'survival of the fittest' environment. There is no reason for someone to sacrifice himself.

I honestly do not follow.

[Mace MacLeod]

Prude alert.

ROFL! Where've you been? Welcome to LucasForums...I think I've been excommunicated for my comments in the now terminally boring and redundant Abstinence thread in the Senate Forums...

 

If you kill someone even with a true justified reason do you go to hell anyway? I ask this because I had talked to a friend of mine during class and I told him I wanted to get involved in some sort of SWAT/Special Forces type organization. Though he told me that if I or anyone slain someone that they would go to hell. Honestly this doesn't affect me that much for I am athiest. I am no goth or devil worshipper in any way or form. I just want to see what 'believers' feel about the question I have asked in this thread..If I offended someone, I mean no harm.

Really, if you're going to join SWAT or the army or something, this shouldn't be something you should worry about. You're volunteering to put yourself in positions where it may be kill-or-be-killed; worry about surviving first, then worry about how guilty you should feel. You seen Full Metal Jacket? There's a part where the recruits have just sung "Happy Birthday" to Jesus at Christmas, and the drill instructor tells them: "You can give your heart to God, but your ass belongs to the corps!" He's saying: "You are a soldier first and a christian second".

 

If you're going to join SWAT or the military, your job will include killing, maiming and fighting without hesitation or pity. That comes with the territory. Your willingness to do so must supercede your religious beliefs or morality if you want to make it. If it really bothers you, hey, if you're Christian, you can repent, atone, do penance, etc and still get to heaven as far as I understand it. So you're covered.

[Q]

This post is directed to RaV, the OP of this thread and addresses his original question ONLY. Since there has been a lot discussion that has covered the subject of justifiable homicide, I thought I'd point out the best case (to my knowledge, at least) of how God deals with UNjustifiable homicide by an individual who was/is otherwise known for his rightousness. It shows how fallable even the best of us are, and that we DON'T get away with it by simply repenting:

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Samuel%2011&version=47

 

Start there and read on to the end of 2nd Samuel. It shows that even the most repentant person doesn't get away with anything; he/she is simply punished in THIS life, instead of being eternally damned in the next. It goes a long way towards showing how your actions don't just have consequences for you, but also for everyone around you, especially those you care about. Anyone who is curious should check it out. It's a short, interesting read.

[stoffe]

Since there has been a lot discussion that has covered the subject of justifiable homicide, I thought I'd point out the best case (to my knowledge, at least) of how God deals with UNjustifiable homicide by an individual who was/is otherwise known for his rightousness. It shows how fallable even the best of us are, and that we DON'T get away with it by simply repenting

(snip)

Anyone who is curious should check it out. It's a short, interesting read.

 

An interesting read, though it seems like a rather draconian punishment to me.

 

Punishing someone who has done something wrong by making their child slowly waste away and die over a week's time doesn't strike me as particularily benevolent. David may have deserved it, but why murder the child to punish its father? The child had hardly had much opportunity to do anything wrong, had it? So why give it the death penalty? Because it wasn't old enough to be a faithful follower of God yet? Or is there some other explanation to that I fail to see?

[Prime]

Punishing someone who has done something wrong by making their child slowly waste away and die over a week's time doesn't strike me as particularily benevolent. David may have deserved it, but why murder the child to punish its father? The child had hardly had much opportunity to do anything wrong, had it? So why give it the death penalty? Because it wasn't old enough to be a faithful follower of God yet? Or is there some other explanation to that I fail to see?

So Jesus loves the little children enough to hurt them to punish their parents?

 

Don't mob bosses tend to do the same thing?

 

That doesn't sound right to me...

[Q]

^^^

You're right, stoffe, it's very harsh. I'd be lying if I said I could explain why the child dies. It might have something to do with his being the product of a sinful union, as opposed to their second child, Solomon, who was conceived after David and Bathsheba were married, and who went on to become king. Maybe God thought that the child was better off in the afterlife than having to grow up as the product of adultery. Beyond that, I really don't know.

[stoffe]

^^^

It might have something to do with his being the product of a sinful union, as opposed to their second child, Solomon, who was conceived after David and Bathsheba were married, and who went on to become king. Maybe God thought that the child was better off in the afterlife than having to grow up as the product of adultery.

 

That's potentially a rather dangerous explanation though, since it might give the green light to fanatics, by divine example, to forcibly abort or kill any children born outside of marriage. If God did it, why should not his faithful follow his example and save the poor children from having to live with that "shame"? Quite a few people aren't exactly hesitant to act in the name of God in other matters, after all.

 

Not claiming that you are one, of course, just that leaving such things that open to interpretation can have rather scary consequences, when it is written in a book that so many place special significance on the writings within.

[Q]

^^^

True, but ONLY GOD has the right to give life or take it away. Anyone who professes their faith but takes life in God's name is a liar, or insane, or both. Any life you take is on YOUR HEAD. Claiming that a murder is sanctioned by God is a cop-out.

[Negative Sun]

And what gives God the right to take or give a life? Does that not make him a murderer? Isn't it a bit hypocritical to judge people for acts he does himself?

And he's a regular at it too, according to the Bible, I'm sure more than one person died when he decided to flood the world but save Noah...

[Q]

And what gives God the right to take or give a life? Does that not make him a murderer? Isn't it a bit hypocritical to judge people for acts he does himself?

And he's a regular at it too, according to the Bible, I'm sure more than one person died when he decided to flood the world but save Noah...

I guess it would make Him a murderer if humanity had a right to judge Him; it doesn't. Since He created everyone and everything and has the final say on who lives and who dies, it doesn't make Him a hypocrite in the least. He is sovereign whether we like it or not.

 

What else can I say? God is God, and He does as He pleases. Do we have a say in it? No. Is it fair? No. Since when is anything on Earth fair? If life was fair, we'd have a choice as to whether we'd like to exist or not before we are even conceived. Life is unfair from beginning to end. Fairness in an imperfect world is an idealistic pipedream. It doesn't exist here.

[TK-8252]

So because god created life, then he has the right to take it away? That's bull****.

 

My parents don't have the right to kill me just because they created me.

 

I guess it would make Him a murderer if humanity had a right to judge Him; it doesn't. Since He created everyone and everything and has the final say on who lives and who dies, it doesn't make Him a hypocrite in the least. He is sovereign whether we like it or not.

 

Then I vote this god out of office for being a genocidal tyrant who is on a rampage against his own people.

 

What else can I say? God is God, and He does as He pleases. Do we have a say in it? No. Is it fair? No. Since when is anything on Earth fair? If life was fair, we'd have a choice as to whether we'd like to exist or not before we are even conceived. Life is unfair from beginning to end. Fairness in an imperfect world is an idealistic pipedream. It doesn't exist here.

 

Yeah, and yet at the same time, you want to say that god is perfect and all-knowing. If he is so perfect and all-knowing, he should know how to be fair. My parents are more fair than the tyrant you call your lord. They don't kill me and send me to hell when I do something bad.

[Q]

So because god created life, then he has the right to take it away?

Yup.

My parents don't have the right to kill me just because they created me.

They're not God. They're just lowly human beings crawling around in the dust with the rest of us.

Then I vote this god out of office for being a genocidal tyrant who is on a rampage against his own people.

Good luck on that one.

Yeah, and yet at the same time, you want to say that god is perfect and all-knowing. If he is so perfect and all-knowing, he should know how to be fair. My parents are more fair than the tyrant you call your lord. They don't kill me and send me to hell when I do something bad.

Actually, He's being more than fair by allowing us to continue to exist, given the fact that throughout our history we've constantly disobeyed Him, and then had the nerve to judge Him by saying His punishment is too severe. All of the Hell that exists here on Earth was brought upon us by us. We deserve what we get for being what we are. If God was half as ruthless as you like to point out, He would have wiped out humanity COMPLETELY long ago, but He hasn't. Why? Ask Him, because I haven't a clue. In His place I probably would have, because I'm not humanity's biggest fan.

 

You don't get it do you? You're acting on a false assumption. Just because I acknowledge His existence does not make me a Christian. In all honesty, I wouldn't count myself among those people. I resent Him as much as you do, even though I shouldn't, so don't expect me to defend Him. I just know my place, though I may not like it. Like He would need me to defend Him. Like He even cares what we think. I just can't deny His existence because of personal experiences in my life.

[igyman]

Then I vote this god out of office for being a genocidal tyrant who is on a rampage against his own people.

I second that!

 

Since He created everyone and everything and has the final say on who lives and who dies, it doesn't make Him a hypocrite in the least. He is sovereign whether we like it or not.

I just feel the need to emphasise that this is nothing more than your personal view on the matter, just as mine is that there's no such thing as a god, that it's just an ancient scam and that religion in the world of today is obsolete and unnecessary.

 

Now, to finally answer the original question of this thread: ''Will you go to hell, if you perform a justified kill?''

First of all, I have to say that I consider killing to be wrong, to say the least. To kill someone just because you can, or because it'll give you some sick satisfaction is utterly dispicable. To kill someone in self-defense is, on the other hand, completely justified and the closest thing to OK, in my book.

Now, as an atheist I don't believe you'll go to hell for commiting a justified murder (self-defense, or legitimate police action), nor any other kind of murder for that matter, because I'm convinced that there are no such things like heaven, or hell. I do think, though, that the act will leave some psychological marks, but they can be overcomed in time, possibly with psychiatric sessions, but also possibly with only the help of your friends and family.

[Jae Onasi]

And what gives God the right to take or give a life? Does that not make him a murderer? Isn't it a bit hypocritical to judge people for acts he does himself?

And he's a regular at it too, according to the Bible, I'm sure more than one person died when he decided to flood the world but save Noah...

 

The person has not died to God, however--just taken into a different realm, if you will. We can't perceive it in the same way because we're finite people. The person who dies to us is never dead to God.

[Q]

You're quite right, Igy. And both of us are entitled to our respective opinions.

[Totenkopf]

So because god created life, then he has the right to take it away? That's bull****.

 

My parents don't have the right to kill me just because they created me.

 

 

Sorry, but have you heard of legalized abortion? Technically, your parents can legally kill you before you're born b/c conception is the point at which you are created. They can have up to 9 months, in some cases, to kill you without risk of punishment.

[TK-8252]

Yup.

 

Who made up this rule? What gave god the authority to do such a thing? Why can't we try him for crimes against humanity? If a king declared "these are my subjects, therefore I will do with them as I please," we would say he's a who kills his own people, much like Saddam Hussein. When god says the same thing, we worship him??

 

Actually, He's being more than fair by allowing us to continue to exist, given the fact that throughout our history we've constantly disobeyed Him, and then had the nerve to judge Him by saying His punishment is too severe. All of the Hell that exists here on Earth was brought upon us by us. We deserve what we get for being what we are. If God was half as ruthless as you like to point out, He would have wiped out humanity COMPLETELY long ago, but He hasn't. Why? Ask Him, because I haven't a clue. In His place I probably would have, because I'm not humanity's biggest fan.

 

So much for that whole "free will" deal.

 

We disobey him because he GAVE US FREE WILL. If he didn't want us to disobey him, he shouldn't have given us free will.

 

This is something that really me off... so humans are given free will by god, but when humans use said free will, they are punished for it.

 

Sorry, but have you heard of legalized abortion? Technically, your parents can legally kill you before you're born b/c conception is the point at which you are created. They can have up to 9 months, in some cases, to kill you without risk of punishment.

 

It's pretty hard to compare an unborn fetus to living people who were murdered by their "lord."

 

A better comparison would have a born child being killed by their parent, which is... illegal.

[Q]

Who made up this rule? What gave god the authority to do such a thing? Why can't we try him for crimes against humanity?

Heheh, you really don't get it, do you? Like I said before: good luck with that.

So much for that whole "free will" deal. We disobey him because he GAVE US FREE WILL. If he didn't want us to disobey him, he shouldn't have given us free will. This is something that really pisses me off... so humans are given free will by god, but when humans use said free will, they are punished for it.

Oh we have free will, all right. Problem is, we always make the wrong choice. Free will to lie, cheat, steal and murder, but we should get punished for it, shouldn't we? Goes a long way towards explaining why the world is the living hell that it is, doesn't it? We brought it on ourselves and WE DESERVE IT!

[TK-8252]

Heheh, you really don't get it, do you? Like I said before: good luck with that.

 

No, I don't understand. Please explain to me why this god is so fit to rule the universe, when he has ****ed up so many times, and appears to be nothing more than a pissy little kid with a huge ego having a fit because people don't do what he wants them to... despite the fact that he's being worshipped 24/7 in heaven.

 

Oh we have free will, all right. Problem is, we always make the wrong choice. Free will to lie, cheat, steal and murder, but we should get punished for it, shouldn't we? Goes a long way towards explaining why the world is the living hell that it is, doesn't it? We brought it on ourselves and WE DESERVE IT!

 

People ARE punished for lying, cheating, stealing, and murdering. That's what the justice system is for.

 

And to address the last part of your post, the world is actually not as bad by a long shot as it used to be. We don't have European nations at war with each other, segregation is over in the U.S., the Soviet Union has fallen, and so on.

 

I do find it ironic how the most secular (and non-Communist, of course) countries are really the only ones doing well in the world, besides the United States. Where ever religion is the strongest in the world is where life is the worst. Africa, the Middle East, places in the lower Americas, etc.

[Jae Onasi]

just as mine is that there's no such thing as a god, that it's just an ancient scam and that religion in the world of today is obsolete and unnecessary.

If you do not acknowledge His existence, then why are you judging Him?

What renders religion obsolete and unnecessary?

Who made up this rule? What gave god the authority to do such a thing? Why can't we try him for crimes against humanity? If a king declared "these are my subjects, therefore I will do with them as I please," we would say he's a b------ who kills his own people, much like Saddam Hussein. When god says the same thing, we worship him??

 

If the person has not died to God, what crime has He committed? How is bringing someone to be closer to Him a crime? Would bringing your child closer to you because you love them a crime? Your assumption is that once the person is dead on earth, s/he's dead to God, too, which is not correct.

So much for that whole "free will" deal.

We disobey him because he GAVE US FREE WILL. If he didn't want us to disobey him, he shouldn't have given us free will.

This is something that really pisses me off... so humans are given free will by god, but when humans use said free will, they are punished for it.

 

Giving someone free will is the only way you can have a real love. If you take away free will, you turn everyone into something no better than robots. Sure, you have absolute obedience, but you have no relationship, no real love. If you forced someone to love you, is that real love? No. In order to allow people to make the choice to love one another and God, you have to allow them free will to make that decision. There are going to be people who reject Him, and He will allow them to make that choice and let them go their way. He doesn't want that, though, because it's like a parent watching a child reject him, and it hurts. He wants fellowship with everyone, but He's never going to force anyone into that relationship.

[TK-8252]

If you do not acknowledge His existence, then why are you judging Him?

 

I don't acknowledge the existance of Darth Vader, but I can judge him for the he was in the fictional story of Star Wars, just as I can judge the Biblical god in his fictional story.

 

If the person has not died to God, what crime has He committed? How is bringing someone to be closer to Him a crime? Would bringing your child closer to you because you love them a crime? Your assumption is that once the person is dead on earth, s/he's dead to God, too, which is not correct.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this and how it relates to my post.

 

Giving someone free will is the only way you can have a real love. If you take away free will, you turn everyone into something no better than robots. Sure, you have absolute obedience, but you have no relationship, no real love. If you forced someone to love you, is that real love? No. In order to allow people to make the choice to love one another and God, you have to allow them free will to make that decision. There are going to be people who reject Him, and He will allow them to make that choice and let them go their way. He doesn't want that, though, because it's like a parent watching a child reject him, and it hurts. He wants fellowship with everyone, but He's never going to force anyone into that relationship.

 

I don't know of many good parents who send their child to be tortured forever in hell by the devil simply because they reject their parents, maybe even for a very good reason (perhaps the child's parents are invisible entities in the sky that never speak to their child, never show themselves, and never offer any evidence of their very existance - like a deadbeat dad).

[Totenkopf]

TK-8252:

It's pretty hard to compare an unborn fetus to living people who were murdered by their "lord."

 

A better comparison would have a born child being killed by their parent, which is... illegal.

 

 

No, it's a fair critique, even if you don't like it. You were talking about life, not at what point it was in the life cycle. Human fetuses are human, not seahorses or just amorphous lumps of tissue. If you've ever seen one of those videos of a late term abortion, or stopped to think about what a partial birth abortion really is, then you know parents have been allowed to kill their children legally. Let's not even get into where euthanasia ultimately goes (though it will be your children/grandchildren and not parents).

[Q]

TK:

 

Hey, I don't get it either, so don't feel bad. I just can't deny His existence, and I can't really explain anything beyond that, nor do I feel obliged to even try. Anyone that says that they can is suffering from delusions of grandeur (a common problem among the various zealots). I'd also be lying if I said that I worshipped Him, because I don't. I'm not trying to take the moral high ground here, because there is none to be had by anyone, anywhere. Even if there was no religion at all (the dream of many Lucasforumites, I've gathered) Earth would hardly be a Utopia. People would still find an excuse to hate and kill each other. Thats human nature, and there's no escape from it.

[TK-8252]

just amorphous lumps of tissue.

 

A very accurate description of an early-stage fetus.

 

If you've ever seen one of those videos of a late term abortion

 

I'd prefer not to see such a thing, just as I'd prefer not to see footage of what goes on inside a slaughter house, for example.

 

or stopped to think about what a partial birth abortion really is, then you know parents have been allowed to kill their children legally.

 

The legal status of late-term abortions is shaky at best. Most states have absolute bans on late-term abortion, others have very restrictive measures placed on late-term abortion (such as only allowing it when the mother is at risk). But I will say that you are right when you say that late-term abortion is killing a child, no question.

 

Even if there was no religion at all (the dream of many Lucasforumites, I've gathered) Earth would hardly be a Utopia. People would still find an excuse to hate and kill each other. Thats human nature, and there's no escape from it.

 

Agreed. But take religion out of the picture and there's one less major reason for people to kill one another.

[Q]

Yo, TK:

 

You're misquoting me, man. You meant Totenkopf, right?

 

As for your last comment, just substitute the word EXCUSE for the word REASON, and you'd be dead on.