Jolee's DS and Kreia's LS acts

[Prime]

It depends on the definition of grey, I guess.

THe "official" definition is a Jedi who does not follow the will of the Jedi Council. It is not related to Jedi who are falling to the dark side.

[Jediphile]

In itself though if Kreia's opinion was correct of the force then she could be considered 'righteous' however the evil she is willing to do can achieve these goals makes her evil. I suppose this comes more down to a matter of opinions though

 

It does. But I agree with you in this regard.

 

I did not remember that quote, so they did have a reason, although I still believe they should have taken the fight to the sith (like Vash did in the cut content) I also think the council was foolish not to engage the Mandalorions (sp), how were they protecting the people then? Would Revan have fallen had older Jedi been there to advise? Perhaps I was being a little harsh on them, but I really dislike Vrook, I think hes arrogant and too far up his own arse.

 

Oh, I do agree regarding Vrook. I still think he's just like that old master Jolee talked about in K1. If Vrook says something, go with the opposite and you'll probably be right, since Vrook is almost always wrong.

 

There is one thing to remember about the tactics of Nihilus and Sion during the Shadow War, though. Taking the fight to the Sith was not an option, because Nihilus and Sion were hiding their forces and striking from the shadows. That's why they call it the Shadow War. The Jedi, unable to locate their enemy, then gathered on Katarr to pool their resources. In doing to they drew the attention of Nihilus, who destroyed the planet and killed them all. The rest of the jedi then hid to prevent innocents from getting caught in the crossfire AND in the hope of making the Sith reveal themselves, if they thought the jedi were extinct. Unfortunately, it is at this precise moment in the plot that the exile returns of Republic space and Atris begins planting rumors that the exile is the last jedi. And so Nihilus and Sion begin to hunt the exile instead of feeling complacent and revealing themselves, as the jedi had hoped.

[jonathan7]

Oh, I do agree regarding Vrook. I still think he's just like that old master Jolee talked about in K1. If Vrook says something, go with the opposite and you'll probably be right, since Vrook is almost always wrong.

 

There is one thing to remember about the tactics of Nihilus and Sion during the Shadow War, though. Taking the fight to the Sith was not an option, because Nihilus and Sion were hiding their forces and striking from the shadows. That's why they call it the Shadow War. The Jedi, unable to locate their enemy, then gathered on Katarr to pool their resources. In doing to they drew the attention of Nihilus, who destroyed the planet and killed them all. The rest of the jedi then hid to prevent innocents from getting caught in the crossfire AND in the hope of making the Sith reveal themselves, if they thought the jedi were extinct.

 

True, But I would have gone to Korriban like Vash did to see if I could find any Trace of the Sith from there (probably would have asked the Republic military if they could spare a ship with a compliment of soldiers) and see what I could turn up from there. Opposed to just hiding and hoping the Sith would reveal themselves... I'm unsure if Nihilus and Sion would have revealed themselves, I don't know what I think they would do, I presume you think the would then go to war with the Republic? (although Nihilus is obviously a special case as all he wants to do is eat )

 

Unfortunately, it is at this precise moment in the plot that the exile returns of Republic space and Atris begins planting rumors that the exile is the last jedi. And so Nihilus and Sion begin to hunt the exile instead of feeling complacent and revealing themselves, as the jedi had hoped.

 

Did Atris actually plant rumours that the Exile was the last of the Jedi? (I don't think I've come across that before). I don't know why but I always assumed that the Exile was the last of the Jedi because the others (Kavar, Vrook, Zez el Kai) werent really Jedi any more, I also kind of got that impression from the speach Kreia gives when they try to strip the Exile of the force (what I never understood about that is, if the Exile is a wound in the force how can you stip him of somethign he doesnt have?). But there ya go

[Rabish Bini]

@Jonathon - Of course they could strip exile of the force, if he didn't have it, how could he use it?

 

Jolee isn't completely evil. If you look at his legs on the character alignment page, there will be a bit of blue.

And I agree with Jediphile about Kreia, here goals are worthy to fight for, (in my opinion) but how she fights for it is evil.

[Jediphile]

Did Atris actually plant rumours that the Exile was the last of the Jedi? (I don't think I've come across that before).

 

Indeed she did. You can get HK-47 to tell you that there is specific mention of the exile in the official databases, much to the exile's surprise, since that information should have been internal jedi data. Of course, this doesn't expose Atris as the one who did it, but you can get her to admit it, when you confront her on Telos if you can resist the urge to kill her. In the cut content, she even admits that she was the one who leaked the information about the jedi meeting on Katarr in order to draw out the sith - that's why she isn't there herself. You'll note that Zez-Kai Ell is surprised to hear she's on Telos, since he presumed her to have died on Katarr as well, which is still in the game.

 

I don't know why but I always assumed that the Exile was the last of the Jedi because the others (Kavar, Vrook, Zez el Kai) werent really Jedi any more,

 

This is what Kreia criticizes and eventually passes judgment on the masters for (in the LS exile's story) - that they are driven and ruled by fear that limits them in their perceptions and prevents them from seeing the truth. As Yoda would say, fear is not the path of the light side, so fearing the destructiveness of the Sith or even the potential of the exile means that the masters do not adhere to the jedi code themselves, even as they accuse and judge others for failing to do so.

 

I also kind of got that impression from the speach Kreia gives when they try to strip the Exile of the force (what I never understood about that is, if the Exile is a wound in the force how can you stip him of somethign he doesnt have?). But there ya go

 

What the jedi tried to do was not to "strip" the exile from the force as such, but rather to make him dead to it, so that he could no longer feel or manipulate it, as he indeed does on an instinctive and subconscious level. This is similar to what Nomi Sunrider did to Ulic Qel-Droma during the Sith War. Basically it makes a person non-force sensitive. The exile's special ability is that while he has cut off his own bond with the force itself, he still forms bonds very easily with other people and can therefore access their force through their bonds. It all comes as naturally as walking and breathing to him, so he never needs to make a conscious effort to draw on the force, even through others, which is part of his problem. What the masters tried to do was to remove his sensitivity, so that he could no longer feel the force in any way, whether consciously, instinctively, or subsciously.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cut_Off_from_the_Force

[Master Kavar]

I reject the idea that Jolee Bindo is really "grey", outside of the definition that he's no longer a Jedi but hasn't fallen to the dark side. Jolee doesn't consider light and dark to be equal, he believes quite strongly that the Sith are evil and need to be stopped. I can't really think of anything "dark" Jolee ever did, not helping the wookiees wasn't a dark side act, it was just apathy.

 

I don't believe Kreia to be grey either; she's just a dark sider with a more sophisticated philosphy. Sometimes she does acts that might be considered "light side", but always with the intention that it furthers her own goals. If anyone is ever actually helped by her, it's either a form of calculated manipulation, or just pure coincidence.

[Prime]

From what I remember, everything that Jolee says has to do with the practitioners of each side of the Force, not about the Force itself. He is light side, but feels that both the Jedi Order and the Sith are extreme.

[Jediphile]

From what I remember, everything that Jolee says has to do with the practitioners of each side of the Force, not about the Force itself. He is light side, but feels that both the Jedi Order and the Sith are extreme.

 

True. Or to quote Obi-Wan, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." That's precisely the problem for the jedi order in the KotOR games.

[Emperor Devon]

Jolee, I think, was fibbing when he said he saw more grey than dark or light. Other than how he said he wasn't there to save the Wookiees from their own folly, pretty much everything he does is what a Jedi would do. He even says he's one if you choose a DS ending.

 

The same goes for Kreia. Her grey view of the Force seemed like a convenient way to avoid helping people while still hiding her true alignment.

[The Architect]

Jolee, I think, was fibbing when he said he saw more grey than dark or light. Other than how he said he wasn't there to save the Wookiees from their own folly, pretty much everything he does is what a Jedi would do. He even says he's one if you choose a DS ending.

 

So, falling in love, training your wife against the wishes of the Jedi council and watching her fall to the dark side is what a true Jedi would do is it? Besides, Jolee said to Bastila that:

 

"Just think of me as another non-Jedi in the group. With a lightsaber...and force powers."

 

Jolee is 'grey', make no mistake about it. I don't really need to explain why, because I'd just be repeating what others have already said. As per usual, I agree with Jediphile, about Kreia.

 

Her goal is noble enough, and her philosophy is something that I wouldn't consider evil and is something that I agree with, however the lives she is willing to sacrifice in order to achieve her goals is selfish, and that is what makes her evil more than anything.

[Emperor Devon]

So, falling in love, training your wife against the wishes of the Jedi council and watching her fall to the dark side is what a true Jedi would do is it?

 

A true Jedi? Yes. I'd count a LS Revan and Luke as true Jedi, for instance, and they both made far greater mistakes than he did, and had lovers as well.

 

"Just think of me as another non-Jedi in the group. With a lightsaber...and force powers."

 

That would contradict his other statement, which I would give more credence towards.

[jonathan7]

So, falling in love, training your wife against the wishes of the Jedi council and watching her fall to the dark side is what a true Jedi would do is it? Besides, Jolee said to Bastila that:

 

"Just think of me as another non-Jedi in the group. With a lightsaber...and force powers."

 

Jolee is 'grey', make no mistake about it. I don't really need to explain why, because I'd just be repeating what others have already said. As per usual, I agree with Jediphile, about Kreia.

 

Her goal is noble enough, and her philosophy is something that I wouldn't consider evil and is something that I agree with, however the lives she is willing to sacrifice in order to achieve her goals is selfish, and that is what makes her evil more than anything.

 

 

I disagree I think Jolee was lightsided, but didnt agree with what alot of the Jedi Masters and there thoughts etc. That quote to Bastilia I always thought was more of a joke (at least I laughed at it and thought it was funny). Also I thought it was OK for Jedi of that era to get married? (e.g. Nomi Sunrider) It wasn't untill later that it was forbidden; and I wouldnt say Jolee is to blame for his wife falling to the darkside... each most choose there own path.

 

I agree about Kreia and I generally agree with what Jediphile says too

[The Architect]

I disagree I think Jolee was lightsided, but didnt agree with what alot of the Jedi Masters and there thoughts etc. That quote to Bastilia I always thought was more of a joke (at least I laughed at it and thought it was funny). Also I thought it was OK for Jedi of that era to get married? (e.g. Nomi Sunrider) It wasn't untill later that it was forbidden; and I wouldnt say Jolee is to blame for his wife falling to the darkside... each most choose there own path.

 

I agree about Kreia and I generally agree with what Jediphile says too

 

Okay okay. Jolee, in terms of personality, actions and that was LS I guess, but I'm not looking at it that way. Star Wars is a black and white, fairytale world where LS = Republic/Jedi and DS = Sith.

 

Jolee is a good person, but he's not LS because he's not a Jedi in KotOR. If Jolee wasn't 'grey', then why is his alignment bar 'grey' in KotOR? Also, why can't Jolee wear gear that's restricted to LS'ders and DS'ders? Because he's grey. He's neutral, that's why.

 

He's a good person but he's not a member of the Jedi Order, the Republic or the Sith in KotOR, and that is what makes him grey. Being grey doesn't mean you're not good. And perhaps falling in love and marriages wasn't forbidden by the Jedi Order in the KotOR era, but it was certainly frowned upon by them.

 

They don't approve of it. I never said that Jolee was to blame for his wife's fall either. I just said that he watched her fall to the dark side, not that it was his fault that she fell in the first place.

 

A true Jedi? Yes. I'd count a LS Revan and Luke as true Jedi, for instance, and they both made far greater mistakes than he did, and had lovers as well.

 

The Jedi Order in Revan's time didn't forbid Jedi from falling in love, but they were against the idea of relationships and all that. In Luke's time, apparently he made it okay for Jedi to fall in love then, but in Jolee's time, it wasn't what a true, code obeying Jedi would do.

 

That would contradict his other statement, which I would give more credence towards.

 

What did Jolee say? I personally can't remember my self.

[Jediphile]

Okay okay. Jolee, in terms of personality, actions and that was LS I guess, but I'm not looking at it that way. Star Wars is a black and white, fairytale world where LS = Republic/Jedi and DS = Sith.

 

I'd take the Republic out of that equation, but otherwise you're right that this is the usual way Star Wars works. It's a little more complex in the KotOR games, because the jedi order, and particulary the masters on the council, have themselves become arrogant, righteous, and judgmental. As much as I dislike them, that aspect is one that makes the KotOR games stand out - you can't judge the players simply by their colours in KotOR. Jolee is grey, but more benevolent than the masters. Kreia is both grey and dark, yet she still holds a better understanding of what it means to be jedi than the masters do. She is dark primarily because she understands and accepts her own fall, and so wishes no pity from anyone.

 

Jolee is a good person, but he's not LS because he's not a Jedi in KotOR. If Jolee wasn't 'grey', then why is his alignment bar 'grey' in KotOR? Also, why can't Jolee wear gear that's restricted to LS'ders and DS'ders? Because he's grey. He's neutral, that's why.

 

He's a jedi, I would say. That he's not a member of the order doesn't mean that he isn't a jedi, at least not to me. Indeed, I consider him far closer to the spirit of what a jedi is than I do the masters. The rest is just game stats, which you can't always base stuff on. I mean, shouldn't that mean that Atris could have used the LS stuff during K1? If so, then the LS/DS axis loses its meaning, since it no longer represents good and evil, and instead the jedi order comes to symbolize order, since they place authority and chain of command above the well-being of people or even the Republic itself, while the Sith symbolize power, since that is what they each seek for themselves.

 

He's a good person but he's not a member of the Jedi Order, the Republic or the Sith in KotOR, and that is what makes him grey. Being grey doesn't mean you're not good. And perhaps falling in love and marriages wasn't forbidden by the Jedi Order in the KotOR era, but it was certainly frowned upon by them.

 

Agreed. But I think we need to look a little beyond that. Jolee chooses grey, because he finds all of the above institutions to be extremist and uncaring to the suffering of the common man. He rejects the jedi order, not the other way around. Who does that speak more highly off?

 

They don't approve of it. I never said that Jolee was to blame for his wife's fall either. I just said that he watched her fall to the dark side, not that it was his fault that she fell in the first place.

 

And that is at the heart of Jolee's problem. The jedi order never blamed him for this. But he could do nothing else himself, nor could he ever forgive himself. Thus his standards are higher than the order's were.

 

What did Jolee say? I personally can't remember my self.

 

I would apply more significance to what Jolee does than to anything he actually says. Jolee is the sort of person who will say things just to provoke you and make you choose for yourself. He's a bit like Socrates in that regard. You have to look at what he does, not what he says.

 

And what does he do? He comes with Revan to "lead the snake away from everybody else," according to Jolee. And despite claiming to be grey, Jolee will not allow Revan to choose the dark side. If Revan makes that choice, Jolee will try to stop him, even kill him. Why? Because he knows exactly what the return of the dark lord would mean to the galaxy, and so he throws himself into preventing that from happening, guiding Revan until Revan makes his CHOICE. But if he makes the wrong one, Jolee will stop him, or at least try. That is not a "grey" act in my book, since Jolee actually DEMANDS that Revan choose the Light Side.

[jonathan7]

Okay okay. Jolee, in terms of personality, actions and that was LS I guess, but I'm not looking at it that way. Star Wars is a black and white, fairytale world where LS = Republic/Jedi and DS = Sith.

 

Jolee is a good person, but he's not LS because he's not a Jedi in KotOR. If Jolee wasn't 'grey', then why is his alignment bar 'grey' in KotOR? Also, why can't Jolee wear gear that's restricted to LS'ders and DS'ders? Because he's grey. He's neutral, that's why.

 

I'd take the Republic out of that equation, but otherwise you're right that this is the usual way Star Wars works. It's a little more complex in the KotOR games, because the jedi order, and particulary the masters on the council, have themselves become arrogant, righteous, and judgmental. As much as I dislike them, that aspect is one that makes the KotOR games stand out - you can't judge the players simply by their colours in KotOR. Jolee is grey, but more benevolent than the masters. Kreia is both grey and dark, yet she still holds a better understanding of what it means to be jedi than the masters do. She is dark primarily because she understands and accepts her own fall, and so wishes no pity from anyone.

 

I must confess Jolee's bar being Grey, seems as silly as Kreia's being grey in this reguard, as I would say neither of them were truly a Grey Jedi (when compared to some people such as the Imperial Knights, who I would clasify far more as grey, as I wouldnt say they were evil, but I wouldnt say they did things for the common good either). Although obviously Kreia being Grey is a plot device so that you don't see the twist of her being the Dark Lord coming. I would however go back to the earlier post I made where I quoted what the official KotOR website said of Jolee. Which to me says that Jolee does is LS but has grown weary and sad about the world.

 

I would agree that the KotOR games are far more complex that the OT, however if you look at the NT, Yoda says in AotC that Jedi are becoming more arrogant, and its prelevant even in the older more expieranced ones. I would say Windu would be such an example, indeed I would go so far as saying Yoda and Kenobi were the only Jedi who werent really arrogant. I personally think Windu had a secondary role in Anakins fall to the DS. While KotOR is far more complex than the films, I do think that some of the Jedi's problems remained the same.

[Emperor Devon]

The Jedi Order in Revan's time didn't forbid Jedi from falling in love, but they were against the idea of relationships and all that.

 

Did they? Bastila seems quite fearful of what the Council might do if they found out about her feelings towards Revan. She even says that falling in love is forbidden.

 

Revan: So the Jedi separates children from their families?

 

Bastila: Relationships with family members are fraught with powerful emotions. Such extremes are to be avoided. Anger and hate are the worst, but even love can lead to folly.

 

Revan: You aren't allowed to love?

 

Bastila: Emotional entanglements can be dangerous. They can impair rational thought, they can lead to outbursts of uncontrolled emotion. A Jedi must be above such things.

 

In Luke's time, apparently he made it okay for Jedi to fall in love then, but in Jolee's time, it wasn't what a true, code obeying Jedi would do.

 

Here the question of what makes a true Jedi comes in. So far, the truest ones have been the ones who were in love.

 

What did Jolee say? I personally can't remember my self.

 

"I'm a Jedi... I'll never bow down to the Sith. If you go through with this I have no choice but to do battle against you."

[Darth Cyvan]

The way I see is that at the end is the Kreia is DS because she chose to become the Dark Lord again so she does only use the gray to hide her DS and Jolee is just a rogue who know what is right and what is wrong.

[The Architect]

I'd take the Republic out of that equation, but otherwise you're right that this is the usual way Star Wars works. It's a little more complex in the KotOR games, because the jedi order, and particulary the masters on the council, have themselves become arrogant, righteous, and judgmental. As much as I dislike them, that aspect is one that makes the KotOR games stand out - you can't judge the players simply by their colours in KotOR. Jolee is grey, but more benevolent than the masters. Kreia is both grey and dark, yet she still holds a better understanding of what it means to be jedi than the masters do. She is dark primarily because she understands and accepts her own fall, and so wishes no pity from anyone.

 

I agree with you that the Jedi Council in the KotOR games were bigoted and condemnatory though. I'm not judging the characters in the KotOR games simply by their alignment colour.

 

I said my self that Jolee's alignment being 'grey' doesn't mean he's neither a good or a bad person, but in Star Wars terms, it means that he's neither a Jedi or a Sith.

 

I don't think that LS = Good and DS = Bad. The KotOR games show this. You're right about taking the Republic out of the equation too. To me, LS = Jedi and DS = Sith.

 

He's a jedi, I would say. That he's not a member of the order doesn't mean that he isn't a jedi, at least not to me. Indeed, I consider him far closer to the spirit of what a jedi is than I do the masters. The rest is just game stats, which you can't always base stuff on. I mean, shouldn't that mean that Atris could have used the LS stuff during K1? If so, then the LS/DS axis loses its meaning, since it no longer represents good and evil, and instead the jedi order comes to symbolize order, since they place authority and chain of command above the well-being of people or even the Republic itself, while the Sith symbolize power, since that is what they each seek for themselves.

 

Even though you and I both agree that Jolee is far closer to the spirit of what a Jedi is than what the masters are in the KotOR games, he's not a Jedi in KotOR precisely because he's not a member of the Jedi Order. I'd say he's a grey Jedi, not a Jedi. Jolee says that he's not a Jedi anyway. He doesn't want to be known as a Jedi in KotOR, so I think calling him a Jedi is a bit...odd, since he doesn't consider himself as a Jedi.

 

Agreed. But I think we need to look a little beyond that. Jolee chooses grey, because he finds all of the above institutions to be extremist and uncaring to the suffering of the common man. He rejects the jedi order, not the other way around. Who does that speak more highly off?

 

It certainly speaks more highly of Jolee, I agree. But according to Jolee, it is the other way around though. He said the Jedi Order left him, not the other way around. I've probably taken that meaning out of context though.

 

The way I see it, Jolee is what a true Jedi should be, but that's not what most of the Jedi were like in the KotOR era, so technically, he isn't a Jedi in KotOR, also keeping in mind that he says he isn't a Jedi too.

 

And that is at the heart of Jolee's problem. The jedi order never blamed him for this. But he could do nothing else himself, nor could he ever forgive himself. Thus his standards are higher than the order's were.

 

Agreed. But this only shows that he's not a Jedi, because he's not like how most of the Jedi in the KotOR era were. He's better than that.

 

I would apply more significance to what Jolee does than to anything he actually says. Jolee is the sort of person who will say things just to provoke you and make you choose for yourself. He's a bit like Socrates in that regard. You have to look at what he does, not what he says.

 

Like I've said, I'd call Jolee a grey Jedi, because his actions are like what a Jedi would do, but he doesn't fit the definition of what the Jedi were like in the KotOR era.

 

And what does he do? He comes with Revan to "lead the snake away from everybody else," according to Jolee. And despite claiming to be grey, Jolee will not allow Revan to choose the dark side. If Revan makes that choice, Jolee will try to stop him, even kill him. Why? Because he knows exactly what the return of the dark lord would mean to the galaxy, and so he throws himself into preventing that from happening, guiding Revan until Revan makes his CHOICE. But if he makes the wrong one, Jolee will stop him, or at least try. That is not a "grey" act in my book, since Jolee actually DEMANDS that Revan choose the Light Side.

 

Huh? He didn't demand Revan to choose the LS, he just demanded Revan not to fall to the dark side. There's a difference there. You answered your own question.

 

He knows exactly what the return of the Dark Lord would mean to the galaxy, but you don't have to be a Jedi or a LS'der to realise that. To me, you're basically infering that someone who is 'grey' wouldn't make the choice that Jolee did.

 

I don't see why you have to be LS or be a Jedi to want to stop Revan from becoming the Dark Lord again. He even says so himself to Carth. He says that you don't have to be part of the Republic or the Jedi to want to stop Malak and the Sith. One more thing is, if Jolee isn't grey, then why did BioWare make his alignment grey for? Explain that one to me.

 

Did they? Bastila seems quite fearful of what the Council might do if they found out about her feelings towards Revan. She even says that falling in love is forbidden.

 

Revan: So the Jedi separates children from their families?

 

Bastila: Relationships with family members are fraught with powerful emotions. Such extremes are to be avoided. Anger and hate are the worst, but even love can lead to folly.

 

Revan: You aren't allowed to love?

 

Bastila: Emotional entanglements can be dangerous. They can impair rational thought, they can lead to outbursts of uncontrolled emotion. A Jedi must be above such things.

 

Here the question of what makes a true Jedi comes in. So far, the truest ones have been the ones who were in love.

 

I guess it was wrong of me to say that relationships weren't forbidden in the KotOR era then. I now remember Bastila saying that it's 'not allowed' too.

 

"I'm a Jedi... I'll never bow down to the Sith. If you go through with this I have no choice but to do battle against you."

 

He says no such thing. I've played as DS Revan before, and I don't remember Jolee ever saying that.

[jonathan7]

I guess it was wrong of me to say that relationships weren't forbidden in the KotOR era then. I now remember Bastila saying that it's 'not allowed' too.

 

No, I don't think any of us are actually wrong; we have different sources, I remember bastilia saying that in game, but at the same times as the KotOR games is http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nomi_Sunrider and according to that marridges between force sensetives were encouraged... hmm confusing. You reckon they'll retkon it?

[Emperor Devon]

I guess it was wrong of me to say that relationships weren't forbidden in the KotOR era then. I now remember Bastila saying that it's 'not allowed' too.

 

We can trace that back to how the truest Jedi were the ones who didn't follow all the rules, which Jolee also did.

 

He says no such thing. I've played as DS Revan before, and I don't remember Jolee ever saying that.

 

He does indeed. I copied that from the main dialogue file in that module.

 

Did you have Juhani as a party member? He'll only say that if she isn't there.

[The Architect]

We can trace that back to how the truest Jedi were the ones who didn't follow all the rules, which Jolee also did.

 

The difference is, 'the ones who didn't follow all the rules' were still apart of the Jedi Order, and that is why they are still Jedi. Jolee is not apart of the Jedi Order in KotOR. Since when can you not be apart of the Jedi Order, and still be a Jedi at the same time?

 

He does indeed. I copied that from the main dialogue file in that module.

 

Did you have Juhani as a party member? He'll only say that if she isn't there.

 

I've played DS Revan with/without Juhani in the party before and he still doesn't say it. Maybe he doesn't say it in the Xbox version, which is what I have. Maybe he just says it in the PC version, which is what I don't have.

 

From what I remember, he says something like: "Don't make me do this. I don't want to, but I'll fight you if I have to. Even if it costs my own life." I don't remember him saying "I'm a Jedi" at all at the Rakata temple.

 

No, I don't think any of us are actually wrong; we have different sources, I remember bastilia saying that in game, but at the same times as the KotOR games is http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nomi_Sunrider and according to that marridges between force sensetives were encouraged... hmm confusing. You reckon they'll retkon it?

 

Who knows? It is confusing indeed. I smell a bit of contradiction here.

[Emperor Devon]

Since when can you not be apart of the Jedi Order, and still be a Jedi at the same time?

 

Here's where we get into technicalities. If Jolee is a Jedi in spirit but not in name, does that make him one? Or at the end of TSL, was Atris really a Jedi? She held the official title, but was far more like a Sith. Titles are not what a person really is.

 

I've played DS Revan with/without Juhani in the party before and he still doesn't say it. Maybe he doesn't say it in the Xbox version, which is what I have. Maybe he just says it in the PC version, which is what I don't have.

 

No, I think I saw it when I played the Xbox version. (That's been a while.) Do you recall this?

 

Revan: Yes! Together we can rule the galaxy!

 

Jolee: Listen to me... the dark side leads to death and destruction. I've seen the horrors the Sith have unleashed on the galaxy. Turn away from this path.

 

Bastila: Shut up, old man. Your time is over! The age of the Jedi and the Republic is no more! This is the age of Darth Revan and the Sith!

 

Jolee: Don't do this, kid. I don't want to, but I'll fight you if I have to. Even if it costs me my life.

 

Revan: I am the Lord of the Sith! Bow down before me!

 

Jolee: I'm a Jedi... I'll never bow down to the Sith. If you go through with this I have no choice but to do battle against you.

[The Architect]

Here's where we get into technicalities. If Jolee is a Jedi in spirit but not in name, does that make him one? Or at the end of TSL, was Atris really a Jedi? She held the official title, but was far more like a Sith. Titles are not what a person really is.

 

I do agree with this, but if you're not only not a Jedi in name and say that you're not a Jedi like Jolee does, then sorry, I still don't see why he's a Jedi for.

 

No, I think I saw it when I played the Xbox version. (That's been a while.) Do you recall this?

 

Revan: Yes! Together we can rule the galaxy!

 

Jolee: Listen to me... the dark side leads to death and destruction. I've seen the horrors the Sith have unleashed on the galaxy. Turn away from this path.

 

Bastila: Shut up, old man. Your time is over! The age of the Jedi and the Republic is no more! This is the age of Darth Revan and the Sith!

 

Jolee: Don't do this, kid. I don't want to, but I'll fight you if I have to. Even if it costs me my life.

 

Revan: I am the Lord of the Sith! Bow down before me!

 

Jolee: I'm a Jedi... I'll never bow down to the Sith. If you go through with this I have no choice but to do battle against you.

 

I recall every line, except for the last one. In fact now that I've seen that dialogue, I'm certain that Jolee never said that. I'd have to play through KotOR all the way again on the Xbox version as a DS Revan who kills Juhani on Dantooine just to see if it's true or not, but quite frankly, I don't want to go through all that crap again just to find out for sure if he said that or not. I'll believe it if more than two people can confirm it. If it's true, then I'm wrong about thinking that Jolee isn't a Jedi, but until then, I'll stay true to my belief that Jolee isn't a Jedi in KotOR.

 

Oh wait, you might be right, because I just remembered that instead of saying "I am the Lord of the Sith! Bow down before me!" I always say "Then prepare to die!" So maybe Jolee does say that, but only if you say the former, not the latter.

[Emperor Devon]

I do agree with this, but if you're not only not a Jedi in name and say that you're not a Jedi like Jolee does, then sorry, I still don't see why he's a Jedi for.

 

Ah, but Jolee is a Jedi in his actions. As I've mentioned before, he calls himself a a Jedi when he's faced with a good friend who suddenly turns on him. I'd lend more credence towards a statement made under those circumstances than idle chatter he was making with Bastila.

 

So maybe Jolee does say that, but only if you say the former, not the latter.

 

That's correct. The line will only appear if you select that response.

[Jediphile]

Even though you and I both agree that Jolee is far closer to the spirit of what a Jedi is than what the masters are in the KotOR games, he's not a Jedi in KotOR precisely because he's not a member of the Jedi Order. I'd say he's a grey Jedi, not a Jedi. Jolee says that he's not a Jedi anyway. He doesn't want to be known as a Jedi in KotOR, so I think calling him a Jedi is a bit...odd, since he doesn't consider himself as a Jedi.

 

I guess I look at a little differently. To me being a jedi depends on your convictions and not the conventions. Basically, it's as if the entire jedi order has declared that 2+2=5, while Jolee firmly maintains that 2+2=4. So he's not following the party line and is officially outside the order for that reason. However, he is still right and they are mistaken, so he is more of a jedi than they are in my book. I'll admit that he has some grey in him, since he doesn't follow the rules. That he takes a wife in violation of the rules is not particularly severe, but "redistributing" stuff from the rich who "didn't need it anyway" or agreeing to use Affect Mind to avoid paying for the use of landing bay or an entry fee is definitely more grey than white. But while we could argue on that basis that Jolee doesn't quite have the self-discipline of a jedi, he does have the heart of one, which is more important, I'd say.

 

I don't see why you have to be LS or be a Jedi to want to stop Revan from becoming the Dark Lord again. He even says so himself to Carth. He says that you don't have to be part of the Republic or the Jedi to want to stop Malak and the Sith. One more thing is, if Jolee isn't grey, then why did BioWare make his alignment grey for? Explain that one to me.

 

To me it's because it underscores the importance of a balanced view, where you actually weigh the concepts of good and evil instead of taking them for granted. And ironically, while Jolee claims to be grey with the result that Bastila questions his dedication to the cause, Jolee still holds far more firmly onto his ideals than any of the playable jedi characters in K1. I mean, Revan was Darth Revan before we even begin (and can be again), Juhani is dark sided when you meet her, and Bastila falls to the dark side during the story as well. Even the rest of the jedi may be questioned there, since the masters messed with Revan's memories, and Belaya's friendship with Juhani can also make her fall to the dark side.

 

No, I don't think any of us are actually wrong; we have different sources, I remember bastilia saying that in game, but at the same times as the KotOR games is http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nomi_Sunrider and according to that marridges between force sensetives were encouraged... hmm confusing. You reckon they'll retkon it?

 

While you're right about the facts here, I don't think they need to retcon it. Bear in mind that KotOR1 begins about 40 years after the Great Sith War. The logical conclusion would be that the rules were amended during that period for some reason. It's a much bigger problem that the relationship between Duron Qel-Droma and Shaela Nuur is frowned upon by Guun Han Saresh, since their Great Hunt for the terentateks (which is the basis for a side-quest of sorts in K1 and has subsequently been chronicled in the Star Wars Tales comic books) takes place only a year after Exar Kun's defeat.