TSL Vs. KOTOR

[The Architect]

Palpatine wouldn't stop until he'd control the galaxy, the sith have always wanted to destroy the Jedi and Kreia is very sith in wanting revenge. Nihilus' hunger can be likened to Palpatine's ambition, and regeneration is just a design ploy it doesn't make Sion anything special.

 

Nihilus hunger can be likened to Palpatine’s ambition? Umm…how? What, Palpatine was going to devour all life in the galaxy, was he? And Sion is unique. Name me at least one Sith Lord who could regenerate just by using their hatred and dark side will? Why is Sion unique? Because there never has been a Sith Lord whose hatred and dark side will can keep their body in tact and enable them to regenerate!

 

There were barely any Jedi left leaving Luke and the others had to fight and over throw Sidious and Vader.

 

Yes, but I was comparing the plot of KotOR and TSL in that paragraph. I wasn’t comparing TSL plot to the OT in that paragraph, was I?

 

Minor details, at the heart of it it's still good vs evil, Jedi vs Sith. There's more to Star Wars than just sith, since KotOR was all about the sith it would of been a change of pace to have a different threat.

 

STAR WARS is about the struggle between the Jedi and the Sith! KotOR is, the PT is, the OT is. What isn’t? By your rationale, I’m entitled to argue that the main threat in KotOR shouldn’t have been the Sith, since it’s been done to death, aren’t I?

 

How does the PC lose in the end of TSL? The PC had the potential to lose in the end of KotOR, if Malak had won it would of only been temporary. Even if his rule had been for several decades it wouldn't ruin the history of the GFFA. Eventually a new champion would of overthrown him or his followers would of turned on him allowing the Republic to come back fighting. But TSL's plots were so black and white, stop the super sith before he destroys all life. Stop Sion before he destroys the Jedi, stop Kreia before she destroys the force. Since none of this can be allowed to happen there's no possible alternate that can be imagined without contradicting the movies then how can there be any sense of threat from these three?

 

Sure, you can lose ANY battle in KotOR, but the plot won’t act on your defeat, so it doesn’t really count. It’s just a gameplay thing. Or what, did you just happen to see some cut-scene in your game showing Malak telling a dying Revan that victory is his, that he was right that he was the more powerful one, and then he goes into a fit of cheesy laughter and says “The Republic and the Jedi are doomed!”?

 

Illogical? I thought I had made a very logical case as to how TSL is just as unoriginal as KotOR. It's that there's the same number of Jedi Masters as star maps, did there need to be five. One other than Atris would of worked just as well. It might fit to have to prove yourself worthy, but in a similar manner? The number of planets equals out, 8-9 for both games? Why not 5 or 10? TSL follows the same format too closely, KotOR got away with a linear story but it really hurts TSL.

 

It really hurts TSL how? You’re forgetting that the developers needed to give TSL that “Star Wars feel” and “sequel to KotOR” feel.

 

Again end bosses regenerating is a common ploy in gaming, this isn't some revolutionary concept designed to change the face of Star Wars but a trick to prolong the confrontation. The fact he does it without captives just makes it even more obvious and cheap.

 

Makes it more obvious and cheap how? What the hell?

 

Again no Nihilus would not have destroyed the galaxy, either someone or something would still of stopped him. Either that or Kriea was misleading you and the Jedi about the potential of his threat.

 

How do you know? Don’t tell me you’re one of those who don’t understand how Nihilus’ power works. You do realise that the ONLY reason why the Exile defeated him was because he/she is a wound in the force, right?

 

Only another wound in the force or a battalion of droids could’ve stopped Nihilus. Nihilus can detect and destroy normal force users from thousands of miles away (he killed everyone on Katarr from orbit), he just has to speak with the intention to kill and they die (an article called Unseen, Unheard says that Visas said when Nihilus spoke, everyone but her on Katarr died. When he spoke, he sent an echo through the force, which deafened all those present on Katarr from the force, thus killing them, since they can’t survive without it).

 

He's not the first Sith Lord to feed off of the force energy of a planetry population.

 

Really? Who else can wipe out a whole planet of Jedi and other force sensitives?

 

It soon got annoying in KotOR to be stopped and told to speak to the characters, but really beyond that how is TSL any different? The character's don't divulge their entire backstory in one go in either game.

 

We don’t really learn much about any of TSL’s party members back-stories, compared to KotOR’s, but so what? Should a character be judged merely on how much and what they tell you about their past? Umm….no. And TSL was different from KotOR in how you had to gain trust (influence) with your companions before they told you more about themselves or anything.

 

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Sure, the plot structure of TSL was very similar to the plot structure of KotOR, but that is not my argument! My argument is that TSL plot (not its structure) is not a rip-off of KotOR, nor is it as big of a rip-off of the OT as what KotOR is.

 

Besides, while I haven’t played NWN (a BioWare game) apparently many who've played it said that KotOR was just NWN set in space.

 

Your female mentor betrays you.

 

You meet and interact with ancestors from an ancient evil (equivalent to the Rakata)

 

You have to find four items on four different areas/sections/whatever (Star Maps)

 

Uh, there’s more, but they are the clichés I can remember I’ve been told about.

[Emperor Devon]

Palpatine wouldn't stop until he'd control the galaxy, the sith have always wanted to destroy the Jedi and Kreia is very sith in wanting revenge. Nihilus' hunger can be likened to Palpatine's ambition, and regeneration is just a design ploy it doesn't make Sion anything special.

 

Metaphorically, sure, you can say they're both hungry. Literally, however, Palpatine "hungers" for total galactic control whereas Nihilus hungers for the galaxy itself. Wanting to control something is quite different from wanting to eat it.

 

Revenge is hardly unique to the Sith. Kreia is quite different from most in how she discounts the Jedi and the Sith for the Force itself, which she wants destroyed. Such a philosophy amongst the Sith is unheard of and nothing short of blasphemous.

 

There were barely any Jedi left leaving Luke and the others had to fight and over throw Sidious and Vader.

 

Not at all like the TSL Sith. With Palpatine the Sith control a giant, galactic-spanning empire with him as the absolute ruler. It's powerful enough that the Alliance is a completely underground movement without any such thing as borders or large battlefronts. They must be stopped, but there's not an extreme hurry. The Alliance can go for decades without doing anything too significant (which they did). The Empire is powerful but simple brute force can destroy it.

 

Compare that to the Sith in TSL, who have very little territory and likely hold mere system's worth of planets while they hide from the galaxy at large. To accomplish their objectives they have special assassins that are abominations who feed upon the Force itself. Their hierarchy is extremely haphazard, with no central authority on anything (or at least one which can keep itself in power). They consist mainly of factions united only by their hate for their enemies. They care nothing for galactic-sized organizations or galactic-scale objectives, but simply eradicating an order of 100 people (at the end of the Jedi Civil War, that is). Mere ships, soldiers and Jedi cannot stop their leaders. They are invincible to all but one special person. Stopping them is a matter of extreme urgency; in mere years they can go from nothing to planet-consuming monsters who wish to eradicate all life.

 

Sure, at their core you could say the Empire and the TSL-era Sith are similar, but in order to say that you strip away all the details that make them what they are.

 

Minor details, at the heart of it it's still good vs evil, Jedi vs Sith.

 

My above response.

 

There's more to Star Wars than just sith, since KotOR was all about the sith it would of been a change of pace to have a different threat.

 

Not a whole lot. Sure, you could have something like the Exchange, a droid army or a giant empire of Jar-Jar clones, but where's the fun in that? Evil Force-users are just the villains for Star Wars.

[T-bolt]

Nihilus hunger can be likened to Palpatine’s ambition? Umm…how? What, Palpatine was going to devour all life in the galaxy, was he?

A metophor, Palpatine wouldn't be happy with just the republic, he needed to be stopped, he wouldn't just say that's enough planets under our control the Empire is big enough.

 

And Sion is unique. Name me at least one Sith Lord who could regenerate just by using their hatred and dark side will? Why is Sion unique? Because there never has been a Sith Lord whose hatred and dark side will can keep their body in tact and enable them to regenerate!

Sion wasn't unique, again the regeneration is a gameplay ploy. He first appears at the same points in the game as Darth Bandon does in KotOR. The big difference is Bandon's image wasn't unique his model or a similar one is reused for one of the minor sith bosses you have to fight to get to Malak. This is again a case of TSL following KotoR's template. The trouble is Sion's image was unique he couldn't just be reused for some other character. He needed to survive, otherwise they'd have to make yet another sith lord. If Sion used a generic sith boss model who'd be interested in him.

 

By removing the jedi captives his power of regeneration is no different to master force heal, or force drain. The thing is the locations where he uses it don't lend themselves to having captives and Nihilus is already the force drain part of Malak. As for his hatred, this really shows how bad a concept he is, if his hatred is so strong why does he let the Exile go at Korriban? Oh she's earned it has got to be the lamest excuse for a narrow escape ever (I forget what he says about the male Exile). If his hatred is so strong he shouldn't be even able to conceive of letting a Jedi escape through his fingers.

 

STAR WARS is about the struggle between the Jedi and the Sith! KotOR is, the PT is, the OT is. What isn’t? By your rationale, I’m entitled to argue that the main threat in KotOR shouldn’t have been the Sith, since it’s been done to death, aren’t I?

I'm not defending KotOR, but since it was the first game it can get away more with cliches. But the Star Wars galaxy is large and has plenty of room for other threats, some of the best Star Wars computer games don't feature Jedi vs Sith. TSL could of gone in another direction rather than trampling over the same ground as KotOR. Or at least cut Nihilus and Sion and just kept Kreia and had another menace.

 

Sure, you can lose ANY battle in KotOR, but the plot won’t act on your defeat, so it doesn’t really count. It’s just a gameplay thing. Or what, did you just happen to see some cut-scene in your game showing Malak telling a dying Revan that victory is his, that he was right that he was the more powerful one, and then he goes into a fit of cheesy laughter and says “The Republic and the Jedi are doomed!”?

No the game won't act on the defeat, but neither does TSL act on your defeat. If your entire party dies fighting on Dxun, for instance, you don't see a cut scene showing Nihilus rampaging throught the galaxy. But to have a believable menace, there must be a possible chance of losing. We don't know a lot about that time period, so it's feasible for Malak or DS Revan to win out at the starforge and then go on to conquer most of the Republic (for a short time at least). But we do know that all life wasn't wiped out so there's no possible way Nihilus is a believable threat.

 

It really hurts TSL how? You’re forgetting that the developers needed to give TSL that “Star Wars feel” and “sequel to KotOR” feel.

Sequels need to keep some connection with previous games, but they don't need to be cookie cutter copies. TSL is KotOR in new clothes, it follows KotOR's template structure if you prefer right down the line with only the slightest of changes.

 

How do you know? Don’t tell me you’re one of those who don’t understand how Nihilus’ power works. You do realise that the ONLY reason why the Exile defeated him was because he/she is a wound in the force, right?

 

Only another wound in the force or a battalion of droids could’ve stopped Nihilus. Nihilus can detect and destroy normal force users from thousands of miles away (he killed everyone on Katarr from orbit), he just has to speak with the intention to kill and they die (an article called Unseen, Unheard says that Visas said when Nihilus spoke, everyone but her on Katarr died. When he spoke, he sent an echo through the force, which deafened all those present on Katarr from the force, thus killing them, since they can’t survive without it).

I understand how his power works, or at least how Kreia and Visas lead us to believe how it works. We never see it successfully in action, if he's so almighty powerful why doesn't he just say the word and kill everyone on all the ships at Telos, if they are in range to attack him he's in range to devour them.

 

I'm sure it wouldn't need a battalion of droids to stop him, was there a real need for the Exile to confront him in person? Surely you could of sent Hk-47 and T3-M4 on board with a load lifter droid packed with Mandalore's explosives and blown up the ship out from under him.

 

Really? Who else can wipe out a whole planet of Jedi and other force sensitives?

Exar Kun drained the life force of all the Massassi race on Yavin 4 and destroyed the surface of the planet in the process leaving only one survivor.

 

We don’t really learn much about any of TSL’s party members back-stories, compared to KotOR’s, but so what? Should a character be judged merely on how much and what they tell you about their past? Umm….no. And TSL was different from KotOR in how you had to gain trust (influence) with your companions before they told you more about themselves or anything.

KotOR tends to prompt you alot more than TSL does about gameplay issues in general, but then it was a new type of game for most SW fans. Neither really spoon feed you the character's dialogue.

 

Sure, the plot structure of TSL was very similar to the plot structure of KotOR, but that is not my argument! My argument is that TSL plot (not its structure) is not a rip-off of KotOR, nor is it as big of a rip-off of the OT as what KotOR is.

But it has been my argument, the template, plot structure defines the plot though. It's the foundations the plot is built on. If the plot structure doesn't change or only changes slightly then the plot is limited in it's options. TSL uses the same structure, it's plot details are barely changed from KotOR, it draws just as heavily from the movies, ESB especially and takes concepts from the rest of the EU.

 

Besides, while I haven’t played NWN (a BioWare game) apparently many who've played it said that KotOR was just NWN set in space.

Again I'm not defending KotOR but attempting to show you that TSL is just as guilty and nothing original.

 

Metaphorically, sure, you can say they're both hungry. Literally, however, Palpatine "hungers" for total galactic control whereas Nihilus hungers for the galaxy itself. Wanting to control something is quite different from wanting to eat it.

But it still boils down to a powerful sith lord who threatens life as you know it and had to be stopped.

 

Revenge is hardly unique to the Sith.

No but what else is Sion about? At least Darth Bandon has orders to attack you, Malak wants power. Sion plays Darth Bandon's role in the 'structure' at least at first but why?

 

Kreia is quite different from most in how she discounts the Jedi and the Sith for the Force itself, which she wants destroyed. Such a philosophy amongst the Sith is unheard of and nothing short of blasphemous.

And all along I've said her motivation is the only original factor in the game. But in the end it's only her philosophy and hers alone.

 

Sure, at their core you could say the Empire and the TSL-era Sith are similar, but in order to say that you strip away all the details that make them what they are.

But it's what is at the core which is important everything else is just dressing. Forbidden Planet is still just the Tempest at it's core. All the details don't change the fact that Morbius is really Prospero.

 

On one hand people are saying KotOR is nothing but a ripoff of the OT ignoring the differences in the details and comparing the structure and on the other hand saying that TSL is original by comparing the differences in the details and ignoring the same underlying structure.

 

Not a whole lot. Sure, you could have something like the Exchange, a droid army or a giant empire of Jar-Jar clones, but where's the fun in that? Evil Force-users are just the villains for Star Wars.

Well that's the test of a good writer to make it fun, there have been good Star Wars games before that don't use the Jedi and the Sith and there's plenty of stories in the EU that don't feature the sith, at least not directly.

[Pavlos]

Agh! This is quite a topic and I think my left retina has been burnt out.

 

Stand by for a barrage of opinion dressed as fact

 

But no way can she be compared to Palpatine other than as a poor imitation. Palpatine won, 3 decades of power isn't losing, and he was overthrown by his apprentice which is the sith way. The fact that Vader cast him down for all the wrong (sith) reasons and returned to the lightside doesn't detract from Palpatine's accomplishments.

 

That is incorrect. So far as I can see, all Palpatine achieved was to rule a galaxy with an iron fist. A lot of people have a habit of conveniently forgetting your final conversations with Kreia:

 

I used you to keep the Lords of the Sith from condemning the galaxy to death with their power unchecked. I used you to lure them to Telos, where they could be, at last, fought and killed. I used you to reveal Atris' corruption, so that her teachings could be ended before they began. I used you to gather the Jedi so they could be destroyed. And I used you to make those who wounded me reveal themselves, so they could be killed by the Republic.

 

That's quite a résumé, if you ask me, and quite a legacy at that. In a sense - and this is truly bizarre - Kreia brought balance to the Force, thousands of years before the chosen one. She essentially ensures the stability and safety of the galaxy for decades to come as well as training you, the Exile, to follow Revan and aid him in whatever way you can.

 

I do believe that the inspiration for Kreia comes from Palpatine, however; it is difficult to deny that.

 

I agree, Sion and Nihilus had NO backstory. at all. i'm okay if there's none with Nihilus, because he's supposed to be unknown, but they need backstory for Sion.

 

Sion does have a backstory. He is not mentioned as much as Malak but we know just as much about him at the end of the second game as we did of Malak at the end of the first one. His master, Kreia, destroyed him, created a thing of hatred and pain. Sion became powerful enough to forge an alliance with Nihilus to overthrow Kreia and then (I assume) took to wandering the galaxy to destroy Jedi - he can't have spent his entire life in between Kreia's fall and the start of the game meditating in the Trayus Core . Sion becomes incredibly frustrated that Kreia has chosen to teach one such as the Exile - one foolish enough to give up the Force. If the Exile is a woman then his hatred is so overpowering that he actually falls in love with her. At the end, Sion can only be defeated if he is broken - spiritually. The battle against Sion was not physical, it was a battle of conversion.

 

Once Kreia entered her hammer onto the nail, "You are an echo.", the game's end reflected how I felt about it in general. The game was one big empty echo of nothing. Your character didn't save the world, nor did he/she end up rulling the galaxy.

 

That strikes me as the point of the game . Chris Avellone can be quoted as saying that he doesn't like happy endings. And on the topic of romance... an Obsidian designer (I think it was Josh Sawyer, not sure) gave a reason for the lack of romantic sub-plots in Obsidian games: most romance plots in games essentially result in vigorous ego stroking and are entirely unrealistic.

[T-bolt]

That is incorrect. So far as I can see, all Palpatine achieved was to rule a galaxy with an iron fist.

All he achieved? He didn't do anything mundane as just raise an army and conquer the galaxy, he got the Republic to hand itself to him on a plate. He got a 1000 year old system of government to tear itself apart and to hand him power, he manipulated the Republic into a civil war and then directed both sides of the conflict and he not only destroyed the ages old enemy of the sith but turned public opinion against them as well. That is far more than just ruling the galaxy with an iron fist.

 

A lot of people have a habit of conveniently forgetting your final conversations with Kreia:

And people say what a great sith lord she is, yet then take everything she says at face value. She's a sith and nothing she says can be trusted because they only ever tell you the truth if it suits their purposes.

 

That means her story of being overthrown by Sion and Nihilus is suspect, her intentions were suspect and what you find out about Sion and Nihilus is suspect. She and Sion were probably working together the whole time and Nihilus might not of ever existed, there was probably a droid underneath those robes.

 

All she really achieved is killing the Jedi Masters, and she probably knew where they were the whole time from Atris. That and training you and using you to destroy her apprentice and puppets. Which she might not of expected you to achieve. Right up until her last breath she's manipulating you or trying to.

 

None of her achievements match Palpatine's.

 

Even though your pc sided with the Masters, they turned against you even though they supported you. Grr... That makes no sense at all.

The real let down of the game for me, the moment that destroyed the game as far as I was concerned and made me stop role playing and just trudge through to see the ending was this conversation with the Jedi Masters at Dantooine.

 

They aren't talking about the Exile, they are talking about you the player. The whole conversation is a dig at crpgs in general. Now I don't mind easter eggs but to use such a crucial situation to make a developer's in-joke. To have the whole reason for such a critical moment in the plot down to making a jibe at the game's mechanics just ruined the whole game for me.

[EnIgmA_XX]

Cut off from the force - Yuuzhan Vong

 

Manipulating the hero and theories that undermine both the lightside and darkside - Vergere

 

Draining the life force on a planetary scale - Exar Kun

 

Wounds in the Force - Destruction of Aalderan.

 

Anti Jedi sentiment - At least one of the prequel era books I just can't think of which one at 5am. Sorry.

 

i guess that makes me wrong then...the only point here that i'd argue is the destruction of Aalderan. while Aadleran was destroyed, it didn't kill the force in that area. people like obi-wan were still able to feel the force there. for everything else, i'd either have to agree or assume that you're correct because i'm too lazy to look up Vergere and Exar Kun on Wookiepedia

 

Sion does have a backstory. He is not mentioned as much as Malak but we know just as much about him at the end of the second game as we did of Malak at the end of the first one. His master, Kreia, destroyed him, created a thing of hatred and pain. Sion became powerful enough to forge an alliance with Nihilus to overthrow Kreia and then (I assume) took to wandering the galaxy to destroy Jedi - he can't have spent his entire life in between Kreia's fall and the start of the game meditating in the Trayus Core . Sion becomes incredibly frustrated that Kreia has chosen to teach one such as the Exile - one foolish enough to give up the Force. If the Exile is a woman then his hatred is so overpowering that he actually falls in love with her. At the end, Sion can only be defeated if he is broken - spiritually. The battle against Sion was not physical, it was a battle of conversion.

 

O_o Sion actually had something about him this whole time!? where did you hear this in the game? i don't remember this in my play through. i mostly just assumed a bunch of things about Sion. i suppose that's an okay backgroud for him. at least it explains everything pretty well.

[Diego Varen]

O_o Sion actually had something about him this whole time!? where did you hear this in the game? i don't remember this in my play through. i mostly just assumed a bunch of things about Sion. i suppose that's an okay backgroud for him. at least it explains everything pretty well.

 

As a fan of Sion's, he does have a backstory, if you listen carefully. He was trained by Kreia and Nihilus (Since Nihilus is apparently stronger and more experienced) and he soon became the Lord of Pain. He was also one of the Sith who fought in the Sith Civil War.

 

Two writers here have already written Fics about Sion, assuming his possible past. One being mine and another being written by DarthSion101.

 

Sometimes not knowing a character's background is good. Both Sion and Nihilus have this and they are more mysterious characters because of it. Mainly Sion, because Nihilus' past was revealed more for me.

[The Source]

That strikes me as the point of the game . Chris Avellone can be quoted as saying that he doesn't like happy endings. And on the topic of romance... an Obsidian designer (I think it was Josh Sawyer, not sure) gave a reason for the lack of romantic sub-plots in Obsidian games: most romance plots in games essentially result in vigorous ego stroking and are entirely unrealistic.

When I talk about feeling 'nothing and empty', I am talking about a lack of emotion. Otherwords, I didn't feel as if anything was lost or gained. If I felt the sense of loss from KotOR II, I would say that he succeeded. However, I didn't feel any type of emotion from the Exile's story. It felt like there was no substance to the KotOR II storyline. At the end of the game, I didn't care if the Exile lived or died.

[T-bolt]

i guess that makes me wrong then...the only point here that i'd argue is the destruction of Aalderan. while Aadleran was destroyed, it didn't kill the force in that area. people like obi-wan were still able to feel the force there. for everything else, i'd either have to agree or assume that you're correct because i'm too lazy to look up Vergere and Exar Kun on Wookiepedia

Alderaan, I must have been really tired to make that typo.

 

If the force was killed at M-V how would anyone have been able to use any force powers there at all? Tainted, yes but killed?

[Jediphile]

A metophor, Palpatine wouldn't be happy with just the republic, he needed to be stopped, he wouldn't just say that's enough planets under our control the Empire is big enough.

 

To me that sounds like you're interpreting facts to support your conclusions as you will. Clearly Palpatine wanted to rule the galaxy. Nihilus wanted or simply craved to eat it. Any attempt to make those the same is sophistry in my book, because Palpatine is big on having ultimate power to rule, while Nihilus has no power to rule. As Kreia says, he is ruled by his hunger to consume the galaxy. You could call that power only insofar that he is pretty much impossible to resist - except in the exile's case - but in the end he remains a slave to his hunger for The Force as much as Dracula is a slave to his hunger for blood.

 

Sion wasn't unique, again the regeneration is a gameplay ploy. He first appears at the same points in the game as Darth Bandon does in KotOR. The big difference is Bandon's image wasn't unique his model or a similar one is reused for one of the minor sith bosses you have to fight to get to Malak. This is again a case of TSL following KotoR's template. The trouble is Sion's image was unique he couldn't just be reused for some other character. He needed to survive, otherwise they'd have to make yet another sith lord. If Sion used a generic sith boss model who'd be interested in him.

 

Really? I must play KotOR again then, since I really don't remember facing Bandon again on the StarForge just before the ultimate fight against the primary sith lord...

 

By removing the jedi captives his power of regeneration is no different to master force heal, or force drain. The thing is the locations where he uses it don't lend themselves to having captives and Nihilus is already the force drain part of Malak. As for his hatred, this really shows how bad a concept he is, if his hatred is so strong why does he let the Exile go at Korriban? Oh she's earned it has got to be the lamest excuse for a narrow escape ever (I forget what he says about the male Exile). If his hatred is so strong he shouldn't be even able to conceive of letting a Jedi escape through his fingers.

 

The exile escaped Sion - he didn't just let the exile go. Besides, Sion is so secure in his power that even if the exile escapes, he doesn't care - let the exile go and hide, because it won't make any difference. Also, I seem to recall Kreia telling me to run in that fight, mirroring Obi-Wan's warning to Luke in Ep. IV. I guess Vader was a bloody stupid idiot and the original trilogy totally illogical in that Vader "lets" Luke escape from the Death Star, given that Luke is the only one who can defeat him...

 

I'm not defending KotOR, but since it was the first game it can get away more with cliches. But the Star Wars galaxy is large and has plenty of room for other threats, some of the best Star Wars computer games don't feature Jedi vs Sith. TSL could of gone in another direction rather than trampling over the same ground as KotOR. Or at least cut Nihilus and Sion and just kept Kreia and had another menace.

 

You know, somehow I find this a poor argument for a game that is actually named "THE SITH LORDS". Okay, you may not like Sith Lords, but they ARE the central villains of Star Wars, and it says quite clearly on the cover of the game that there're probably going to be Sith in there, given the title... Besides, KotOR is NOT the first Star Wars game to feature Sith Lords heavily. How about the whole JK series? I guess we should label KotOR hopelessly unoriginal on that basis or what? Then again, the games are called "Knights of the Old Republic". Those "knights" are jedi. The enemy of the jedi are the sith. It's really quite simply...

 

No the game won't act on the defeat, but neither does TSL act on your defeat. If your entire party dies fighting on Dxun, for instance, you don't see a cut scene showing Nihilus rampaging throught the galaxy. But to have a believable menace, there must be a possible chance of losing. We don't know a lot about that time period, so it's feasible for Malak or DS Revan to win out at the starforge and then go on to conquer most of the Republic (for a short time at least). But we do know that all life wasn't wiped out so there's no possible way Nihilus is a believable threat.

 

...because the exile destroyed Nihilus. Nobody else could have.

 

Sequels need to keep some connection with previous games, but they don't need to be cookie cutter copies. TSL is KotOR in new clothes, it follows KotOR's template structure if you prefer right down the line with only the slightest of changes.

 

Except that is EXACTLY why it's the other way around - TSL is a new plot in KotOR clothing, not KotOR in new clothing. It uses the same underlying game mechanic, it plays on the same elements, but it has a totally different plot. KotOR was a very classic black-and-white "Star Wars-y" plot with an all black-hat villain. TSL was all shades of grey with multiple and far more complex villains, some of whom even had some redeeming qualities.

 

I understand how his power works, or at least how Kreia and Visas lead us to believe how it works. We never see it successfully in action, if he's so almighty powerful why doesn't he just say the word and kill everyone on all the ships at Telos, if they are in range to attack him he's in range to devour them.

 

Because he's above that and because he wants jedi. It's just beneath him. He doesn't care if exile, Visas and Mandalore kill his soldiers, because they are nothing to him.

 

I'm sure it wouldn't need a battalion of droids to stop him, was there a real need for the Exile to confront him in person? Surely you could of sent Hk-47 and T3-M4 on board with a load lifter droid packed with Mandalore's explosives and blown up the ship out from under him.

 

Given that he could raise a ship from Malachor V and hold it together by his will alone, you can imagine how a droid army would fare against him... "Destroy Droid"-force power? More like "Obliterate Droid Armies", I think...

 

Exar Kun drained the life force of all the Massassi race on Yavin 4 and destroyed the surface of the planet in the process leaving only one survivor.

 

Erm... There is big or rather MAJOR difference between what Exar Kun did and what Nihilus could do. You need to take a few significant things into account here...

 

1. All the Massassi sacrificed themselves willingly to Exar Kun's sorcery. I'm pretty sure that neither the jedi masters nor the entire population of Katarr did...

 

2. Exar Kun worked his sorcery from Naga Sadow's temple on Yavin IV, where such rituals have been performed for a millennium and had all the proper ritualistic places, Sith objects (which are mentioned specifically in the description of the ritual in "Tales of the Jedi - The Sith War" issue 6) etc. in place, while Kun had all the Massassi in the room with him to willingly give their lives and souls to help him. Nihilus simply jumped out of the hyperspace and killed all life from orbit by his will.

 

3. Exar Kun was not trying to "eat" the force - it was simply needed as part of his ritual for him to "shed the chains of his mortal body and run rampant throughout the cosmos," the short version of which is that the jedi had found him, he knew he was doomed, and this was his only means of escape. What Exar Kun did was an act of desperation - a final last attempt to flee the jedi. It was not an attack. And it failed, since...

 

4. Exar Kun did NOT intend to burn (not destroy) the surface of Yavin IV. He was just trying to escape. Yavin IV burned because there was an entire armada of ships filled with jedi in the skies above him and the "wall of light generated by many jedi becomes a crushing blow for the light side of the force... a flood that sweeps down to extinguish the corrupted power of the sith... and to stop Exar Kun. But the light-side power triggers a terrible destruction in its wake". In short, the "burning" of Yavin IV was either due to the light side or due to the clash of the dark and the light. Although he did instigate it, it was neither Exar Kun's intention nor his doing. Nihilus, however, did exactly what he intended to do to Katarr and everyone on it.

 

KotOR tends to prompt you alot more than TSL does about gameplay issues in general, but then it was a new type of game for most SW fans. Neither really spoon feed you the character's dialogue.

 

"1. Listen to what's troubling Carth [and so learn more about the characters in this game and how rich its background is]. 2. Ignore Carth [and be a complete git, since we [the devs] obviously put this in here for you to explore, or do you think we'd just interrupt you in the middle of your quest for no good reason? If you're not going to choose option 1, then why are you even playing the game, Sherlock? Well, you go ahead and choose, but don't complain to us about missing plot and background, when you're so obviously ignoring our big, flashy neon-signs pointing right to it!!"

 

 

But it has been my argument, the template, plot structure defines the plot though. It's the foundations the plot is built on. If the plot structure doesn't change or only changes slightly then the plot is limited in it's options. TSL uses the same structure, it's plot details are barely changed from KotOR, it draws just as heavily from the movies, ESB especially and takes concepts from the rest of the EU.

 

No! I absolutely and totally disagree! The structure ALWAYS supports the plot. NEVER the other way around. You write your plot and you stick to it no matter what. I don't care what rules, engine, graphics or whatever you use - they're all secondary to the plot and the characters. That was the priority in TSL, and I'll support that every time. If you can hold onto the spirit of the predecessor by embracing the template/structure while writing a totally different kind of story, then that's what you should do, and it's what they tried in TSL. The only reason it didn't work as well as it could have was because they didn't get the time they needed to make it work.

 

But it still boils down to a powerful sith lord who threatens life as you know it and had to be stopped.

 

So does any Star Wars game/story that features Jedi heavily.

 

No but what else is Sion about? At least Darth Bandon has orders to attack you, Malak wants power. Sion plays Darth Bandon's role in the 'structure' at least at first but why?

 

Because unlike Nihilus or Traya, he is actually hunting down the jedi while the others can't be bothered to for their own nefarious reasons.

 

And all along I've said her motivation is the only original factor in the game. But in the end it's only her philosophy and hers alone.

 

That depends on the player. And you cannot say that TSL is not that special if you take away Kreia, because Kreia IS what makes TSL so special. That's like saying the original Star Wars movie (ep. IV) was not all that special, if it weren't for the lightsabers and the visual effects. Well duh! That's what DID make it special!

 

On one hand people are saying KotOR is nothing but a ripoff of the OT ignoring the differences in the details and comparing the structure and on the other hand saying that TSL is original by comparing the differences in the details and ignoring the same underlying structure.

 

Because structure doesn't matter. Indeed, it is the recognition of the familiar structure that makes it Star Wars. What makes it original is that it tries something we haven't seen in Star Wars before with both its plot and its characters. Is it original compared to all fiction ever written? No, of course not. What fiction of today is? As T.S. Eliot would say, there is nothing new to tell (and he said that a long time ago indeed). There are new perspectives, though, and that is precisely what TSL gave us.

 

Well that's the test of a good writer to make it fun, there have been good Star Wars games before that don't use the Jedi and the Sith and there's plenty of stories in the EU that don't feature the sith, at least not directly.

 

Yes, but the game is called "Knights of the Old Republic". To not have jedi in there would be a travesty. And if there are jedi, then there must be sith. As I've said before, I'm all for a non-jedi/non-sith Star Wars RPG, but then it can't say "Knights of the Old Republic" on the front cover... Or "The Sith Lords."

[Gargoyle King]

- When weighing the pros and cons of both games - i'd say KOTOR

- In terms of modding gameplay experiences - a tough one, but KOTOR again (although TSLRP may change this for me!)

[Emperor Devon]

But it still boils down to a powerful sith lord who threatens life as you know it and had to be stopped.

 

Sure, but you could apply that to every Sith Lord who tried to rule the galaxy. Controlling a gigantic tyrannical empire is very different from eating everybody.

 

No but what else is Sion about? At least Darth Bandon has orders to attack you, Malak wants power. Sion plays Darth Bandon's role in the 'structure' at least at first but why?

 

He despises the Jedi for pretty much everything that's gone wrong. If it weren't for them, Revan would've died, Malak wouldn't have, and the Sith in his opinion would've controlled the galaxy. If it weren't for them Kreia wouldn't have turned him into what he was,

 

Sion loathes the Jedi already, and that the player is getting special attention from Kreia makes him hate him/her even more. For male players he sees him as weak for giving up the Force when he could've become another Nihilus, hates the fact that he's a Jedi, and is jealous and baffled by how much importance Kreia places on him. With female characters it's the same reasons, but he doubly hates her for making him weak by loving her. That's much more interesting than Bandon IMO.

 

But it's what is at the core which is important everything else is just dressing.

 

But at the core all of the villains in Star Wars are the same, really. They're all villains who desire something not in the benefit of the protagonist to happen. Call their differences dressings, but that's all that makes them what they are. Everything is the same when you strip enough details away.

 

there have been good Star Wars games before that don't use the Jedi and the Sith and there's plenty of stories in the EU that don't feature the sith, at least not directly.

 

Sure, but none of those were nearly as good. Most stories that tried not to have an evil Force-user play a large role failed abysmally. Look at the Vong books; they sounded great (to some) in how there were no Sith, there'd be a gray side to the Force, and the new villains would be immune to the Force to. Other than the Jacen/Vergere scenes those books ended up being good for nothing except toilet paper.

[T-bolt]

Any attempt to make those the same is sophistry in my book, because Palpatine is big on having ultimate power to rule, while Nihilus has no power to rule.

So basically you don't understand the concept of metaphors. Since you bring up Dracula, the vampire is a metaphor for repressed desires. The hunger for blood is a lust for sex.

 

Nihilus' hunger is a metaphor for Palpatine's or the Sith desire for power.

 

Really? I must play KotOR again then, since I really don't remember facing Bandon again on the StarForge just before the ultimate fight against the primary sith lord...

I never said you face Bandon again but there is at least one master sith/dark jedi elsewhere that uses the same model (maybe with different textures) or at least a similar one. The point was KotOR had a sith lord who attacks you on the Endar Spire and your companion sacrifices themselves to allow you to escape, and so TSL must have a sith lord that attacks you and one of your companions faces him alone to buy you time to escape. Likewise KotoR has the same sith lord confront you after finding a star map so TSL had to have the same sith lord attack you after finding a master.

 

The exile escaped Sion - he didn't just let the exile go. Besides, Sion is so secure in his power that even if the exile escapes, he doesn't care - let the exile go and hide, because it won't make any difference.

Right you run out of the academy and go explore some caves right next door, yeah that's really escaping. If his hatred is so strong he'd follow no matter what. If he doesn't care he can't hate and therefore he wouldn't have any power.

 

Also, I seem to recall Kreia telling me to run in that fight, mirroring Obi-Wan's warning to Luke in Ep. IV. I guess Vader was a bloody stupid idiot and the original trilogy totally illogical in that Vader "lets" Luke escape from the Death Star, given that Luke is the only one who can defeat him...

Vader let's Luke escape so he can track him to the rebel base, and he doesn't even know who Luke is at that point, it's not until the end of the film and the trench run that he realises that the force is strong with him and at some point between IV and V that he learns his name.

 

You know, somehow I find this a poor argument for a game that is actually named "THE SITH LORDS". Okay, you may not like Sith Lords, but they ARE the central villains of Star Wars, and it says quite clearly on the cover of the game that there're probably going to be Sith in there, given the title... Besides, KotOR is NOT the first Star Wars game to feature Sith Lords heavily. How about the whole JK series? I guess we should label KotOR hopelessly unoriginal on that basis or what? Then again, the games are called "Knights of the Old Republic". Those "knights" are jedi. The enemy of the jedi are the sith. It's really quite simply...

I thought TSL fans already were labelling KotOR hopelessly unoriginal. It's a poor arguement to say no other plot could of been used because this is the game's title.

 

The JK series started with a game that wasn't about Jedi or Sith, Dark Forces. The title isn't set in stone and I'm sure that LA were looking for a company to make KotOR2 rather than TSL.

 

...because the exile destroyed Nihilus. Nobody else could have.

Or so we are led to believe.

 

My point is the theme of the game is manipulation so nothing you are told has to be true, not even Visas being a Miraluka. The only independant verifcation of this is Atton and what's he going by? The lack of eyes and the clothing? She could of been a sith acolyte of Kreia's and Kreia could of plucked out her eyes to train her in the art of force sight and then used the force to rewrite her personality and memories.

 

Except that is EXACTLY why it's the other way around - TSL is a new plot in KotOR clothing, not KotOR in new clothing. It uses the same underlying game mechanic, it plays on the same elements, but it has a totally different plot. KotOR was a very classic black-and-white "Star Wars-y" plot with an all black-hat villain. TSL was all shades of grey with multiple and far more complex villains, some of whom even had some redeeming qualities.

None of them had redeeming qualitities. Kriea wasn't half as complex as Palpatine and the plot was basically black and white. Stop Nihilus or watch the galaxy be devoured, how more black and white can you get than that? And at the end you either kill Kreia and see the end movie or she kills you and you reload, how isn't that black and white?

 

Because he's above that and because he wants jedi. It's just beneath him. He doesn't care if exile, Visas and Mandalore kill his soldiers, because they are nothing to him.

If it's beneath him why does he need them in the first place?

 

If Nihilus is so powerful and doesn't care about small insignificant battle fleets why does he need to travel with one? And if what Visas tells you is true that since there's no force users other than yourselves and he'll need to feed on the mass destruction of the station and the life on the planet then surely the people in each fleet are no long insignificant?.

 

 

Given that he could raise a ship from Malachor V and hold it together by his will alone, you can imagine how a droid army would fare against him... "Destroy Droid"-force power? More like "Obliterate Droid Armies", I think...

Assuming that he is what Kreia and Visas lead you to believe he is. And if he doesn't care that two force users board his ship then how's he going to even see the droids coming.

 

Again if he was this powerful why does he need a fleet, why doesn't he travel alone or with only a small entourage? This all points to him being controlled and not being the all powerful sith lord as we are led to believe.

 

Erm... There is big or rather MAJOR difference between what Exar Kun did and what Nihilus could do.

Yeah Exar Kun actually did it and we only have Kreia and Visas word that Nihilus was responsible. Or even has such a power.

 

No! I absolutely and totally disagree! The structure ALWAYS support the plot. NEVER the other way around. You write your plot and you stick to it no matter what. I don't care what rules, engine, graphics or whatever you use - they're all secondary to the plot and the characters. That was the priority in TSL, and I'll support that every time. If you can hold onto the spirit of the predecessor by embracing the template/structure while writing a totally different kind of story, then that's what you should do, and it's what they tried in TSL.

And you can disagree that the world isn't round and not at the center of the universe but that doesn't make you any more right! If the structure is linear then the plot is limited. If you are hopping around the galaxy and Nihilus is hopping around the galaxy then there's a random chance (however many billions to one) that you might bump into him before Telos. But KotOR's structure doesn't allow that, so TSL's plot can't either.

 

The only reason it didn't work as well as it could have was because they didn't get the time they needed to make it work.

The script would of been one of the first things to be finalised. While other parts of the game might have been cut the plot should of been blindingly polished. You can't blame LA for that beyond the fact they approved it. Apparently they are notorius for pushing developers, and even if they aren't it's becoming a standard industry practice (not one I agree with) and since Obidian aren't newcommers to the industry it should of been something they had prepared for.

 

So does any Star Wars game/story that features Jedi heavily.

Not true, except for the fact that Palpatine is behind everything most of the stories from the prequel and clone wars era don't always feature sith or dark force users. The New Jedi Order (whether you like them or not) doesn't revolve around jedi vs sith.

 

because Kreia IS what makes TSL so special.

I've been saying all along that she's the only thing of minor interest. Thank you for going on record and confirming it.

 

Because structure doesn't matter. Indeed, it is the recognition of the familiar structure that makes it Star Wars. What makes it original is that it tries something we haven't seen in Star Wars before with both its plot and its characters. Is it original compared to all fiction ever written? No, of course not. What fiction of today is? As T.S. Eliot would say, there is nothing new to tell (and he said that a long time ago indeed). There are new perspectives, though, and that is precisely what TSL gave us.

A manipulative sith lord, a sith lord filled with hate and a sith lord filled with unquenchable hunger? These are the basic concepts of the Sith and not something that TSL thought up. TSL adds nothing new other than that idea that the force is the enemy. Nothing!

 

Yes, but the game is called "Knights of the Old Republic". To not have jedi in there would be a travesty. And if there are jedi, then there must be sith. As I've said before, I'm all for a non-jedi/non-sith Star Wars RPG, but then it can't say "Knights of the Old Republic" on the front cover... Or "The Sith Lords."

And titles aren't set in stone, and it can also be read as knights of the Old Republic. Not that knights need be Jedi knights, knights could be champions or heroes. The original movie didn't first appear to center around Vader and Kenobi, it's only as you watch the rest of the films does the struggle between the Jedi and the Sith become the main attraction.

 

Sure, but none of those were nearly as good. Most stories that tried not to have an evil Force-user play a large role failed abysmally. Look at the Vong books; they sounded great (to some) in how there were no Sith, there'd be a gray side to the Force, and the new villains would be immune to the Force to. Other than the Jacen/Vergere scenes those books ended up being good for nothing except toilet paper.

To quote the Architect again,

 

Yeah, it was like that for you, but not me, and not necessarily everyone else either.

[Jediphile]

So basically you don't understand the concept of metaphors. Since you bring up Dracula, the vampire is a metaphor for repressed desires. The hunger for blood is a lust for sex.

 

Nihilus' hunger is a metaphor for Palpatine's or the Sith desire for power.

 

Only in your opinion. It neither means that you're right or that other people need agreed with you. I certainly do not. If I want metaphors I'll look to poetry and such, certainly not in Star Wars.

 

I never said you face Bandon again but there is at least one master sith/dark jedi elsewhere that uses the same model (maybe with different textures) or at least a similar one. The point was KotOR had a sith lord who attacks you on the Endar Spire and your companion sacrifices themselves to allow you to escape, and so TSL must have a sith lord that attacks you and one of your companions faces him alone to buy you time to escape. Likewise KotoR has the same sith lord confront you after finding a star map so TSL had to have the same sith lord attack you after finding a master.

 

Actually, Kreia's sacrifice seemed to mirror Bastila's more than Trask's IMHO.

 

And of course Sith Lords will attack you as you progress through the game - that's what they're there for. And KotOR certainly wasn't the first game where it happened either...

 

Right you run out of the academy and go explore some caves right next door, yeah that's really escaping. If his hatred is so strong he'd follow no matter what. If he doesn't care he can't hate and therefore he wouldn't have any power.

 

That depends entirely on how you choose to approach Korriban. If you have the levels, there is nothing to stop you from going to the caves first, in which case you can run straight from the academy to the Ebon Hawk and flee.

 

Besides, if you want to use that logic, then why doesn't KotOR set a time limit on how long I can lurk about on Taris before Malak orders the planets destruction? I mean, no matter how fast or slowly I get to Davik's hideout, Malak always decides to destroy Taris at that exact time. How utterly stupid is that? Or for that matter, how silly is it that the Republic fleet always manages to get to the Rakatan system just as Revan repairs the Ebon Hawk and leaves? Or even better, why doesn't Darth Bandon come after me, once he's killed Trask? That's what he's there for, after all - to kill republic soldiers. And why, why, why doesn't Karath simply kill Revan, Bastila and Carth? I mean, they've got us - we're captured. They could kill us without a sweat... But no no - they have to tell us their plan and then leave us to escape in best Bond/Blofeld fashion. How lame is that?

 

Linear plot doesn't always lend itself well to gameplay, but given the choice between the plot and the alternative, I'll support the plot. This is an argument you can make of almost any CRPG (and lots of movies too).

 

Vader let's Luke escape so he can track him to the rebel base, and he doesn't even know who Luke is at that point, it's not until the end of the film and the trench run that he realises that the force is strong with him and at some point between IV and V that he learns his name.

 

Exactly my point. Sion doesn't know that the exile is a wound in the force and dangerous as such. To him, the exile is just another jedi. And before you say, "no, the exile is the LAST jedi he has been hunting", just bear in mind where that scene takes place - it's on Korriban, and it's just after you find the body of Vash, who was killed by Sion. She was a jedi master. But wait, Sion thought you were the last jedi, so how does that hang together? It hangs together in that Sion THOUGHT - past tense - you were the last jedi right up until that point. But then he found Vash and killed her. She was a jedi master. There weren't supposed to be any left, yet there she was. Maybe other jedi masters are out there, given that Vash was alive and he thought them all dead... So maybe the exile isn't the only one. And maybe, just maybe, "letting" the exile go can lead to other disgusting jedi...

 

I thought TSL fans already were labelling KotOR hopelessly unoriginal. It's a poor arguement to say no other plot could of been used because this is the game's title.

 

Regardless, it says "Sith Lords" quite prominently on the cover. If you dislike them so much, then why did you buy the game? It's not as if there wasn't a pretty big clue to who the bad guys would be...

 

The JK series started with a game that wasn't about Jedi or Sith, Dark Forces. The title isn't set in stone and I'm sure that LA were looking for a company to make KotOR2 rather than TSL.

 

Ah, but Dark Forces is set EXACTLY during a period of Star Wars where there can be no jedi because it would conflict with the established canon of Luke being the last. KotOR, on the other hand, is KotOR exactly because the Jedi Knights of the title do feature prominently, even if there are hardly any left.

 

Or so we are led to believe.

 

My point is the theme of the game is manipulation so nothing you are told has to be true, not even Visas being a Miraluka. The only independant verifcation of this is Atton and what's he going by? The lack of eyes and the clothing? She could of been a sith acolyte of Kreia's and Kreia could of plucked out her eyes to train her in the art of force sight and then used the force to rewrite her personality and memories.

 

Well, if you're going to discount the most basic facts established in the game, then any discussion would seem to me to be as pointless as a cleric's weapon...

 

None of them had redeeming qualitities. Kriea wasn't half as complex as Palpatine and the plot was basically black and white. Stop Nihilus or watch the galaxy be devoured, how more black and white can you get than that? And at the end you either kill Kreia and see the end movie or she kills you and you reload, how isn't that black and white?

 

Because it goes beyond good and evil. Nihilus is a threat to the Jedi AND the Sith. As the exile is an abomination to the Jedi, so is he an abomination to the Sith. It's a story about survival that goes beyond the finer points of ethics or morality.

 

And Kreia does have redeeming quality, since she is trying to liberate all living things from the oppression of the will of the force. She is not your average black-hat cheesy villain with phoney laughter like Malak. And she is far more intersting than Palpatine, because while Palpatine is sly and sneaky, his ultimate goal is to rule the galaxy just same as every other Sith Lord wannabe. Kreia, however, has a cause that overrides mere ambition and obvious thirst for power. Yes, you end up killing her, but the reasons for it are rather more complex than "because I'm the good guy, and the good guy kills the bad guy." You can even argue that Kreia is a heroic character, because she sacrifices herself to her cause in the end. What other Sith Lord has done that?

 

If Nihilus is so powerful and doesn't care about small insignificant battle fleets why does he need to travel with one?

 

He probably doesn't. It's just more convenient and expedient.

 

And if what Visas tells you is true that since there's no force users other than yourselves and he'll need to feed on the mass destruction of the station and the life on the planet then surely the people in each fleet are no long insignificant?.

 

I don't understand that sentence. Sorry.

 

Assuming that he is what Kreia and Visas lead you to believe he is. And if he doesn't care that two force users board his ship then how's he going to even see the droids coming.

 

Why should he need to? He can just crush them all when they arrive. And if they fire weapons at him, the force will make him aware of any danger.

 

Again if he was this powerful why does he need a fleet, why doesn't he travel alone or with only a small entourage? This all points to him being controlled and not being the all powerful sith lord as we are led to believe.

 

I fail to see your point here...

 

Yeah Exar Kun actually did it

 

No. As I said before, Yavin IV was burned either by the light side or by the light side clashing with the dark side. It was neither Exar Kun's intention nor his doing. He just instigated it. "Tales of the Jedi - The Sith War, issue 6" clearly says so.

 

and we only have Kreia and Visas word that Nihilus was responsible. Or even has such a power.

 

Nope, the masters say it too, although they don't know that Nihilus was responsible, since everyone there was killed, and they don't have the "inside" information that Kreia and Visas do.

 

And you can disagree that the world isn't round and not at the center of the universe but that doesn't make you any more right!

 

Likewise.

 

If the structure is linear then the plot is limited. If you are hopping around the galaxy and Nihilus is hopping around the galaxy then there's a random chance (however many billions to one) that you might bump into him before Telos. But KotOR's structure doesn't allow that, so TSL's plot can't either.[/Quote]

 

This is true for almost any CRPG. To blame TSL for it but accept it for all others seems very odd to me. And there are certainly far, far worse examples out there...

 

The script would of been one of the first things to be finalised. While other parts of the game might have been cut the plot should of been blindingly polished. You can't blame LA for that beyond the fact they approved it. Apparently they are notorius for pushing developers, and even if they aren't it's becoming a standard industry practice (not one I agree with) and since Obidian aren't newcommers to the industry it should of been something they had prepared for.

 

The script isn't the problem. The script is fine. The problem is that it wasn't all implemented well. That makes the plot during the endgame very confusing.

 

Not true, except for the fact that Palpatine is behind everything most of the stories from the prequel and clone wars era don't always feature sith or dark force users.

 

Given that the rule of two is in place, that's sort of a given, since Palpatine can't be unmasked too soon and Dooku is a big give-away. That they're still the ones pulling the strings speaks volumes, though.

 

The New Jedi Order (whether you like them or not) doesn't revolve around jedi vs sith.

 

And so they tried to replace the Sith with something else with mediocre results as a consequence, or so I gather. The whole point of post-ROTJ is that the Sith are finally defeated, because the movies are supposed to be the ultimate end of the Sith oppression and the resurrection of the jedi. The problem is that "Star Peace" is not nearly as interesting as "Star Wars". I guess that's why they went back in time, so they could fight the Sith again. And thus we have KotOR.

 

I've been saying all along that she's the only thing of minor interest. Thank you for going on record and confirming it.

 

If that's your only issue, then I fail to see why you have argued so strongly. Everybody has said that Kreia is precisely the character that makes TSL stand out, both because of her cause, because of the perfect voice-acting by Sara Kestelman, and because of wonderful dialogue like, "It is such a quiet thing to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it."

 

There are other good characters in TSL IMHO. Nihilus is quite scary and mysterious. Visas actually is pretty spooky in her own way as well. But the plot definitely wouldn't work with Kreia, and I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise. If they have, then I certainly didn't notice.

 

A manipulative sith lord, a sith lord filled with hate and a sith lord filled with unquenchable hunger? These are the basic concepts of the Sith and not something that TSL thought up. TSL adds nothing new other than that idea that the force is the enemy. Nothing!

 

Well, that IS a pretty unusual idea. And while I don't credit Sion with being terribly interesting, I do think you're putting Nihilus down a lot. We've seen no other sith lords with his disposition or power that I've noticed. He sure is unusual no matter what he is. Hunger may not sound unusual in and off itself, but Nihilus does take it to a level we haven't seen before. He's not merely a drain, he's a vacuum in the force - a black hole. He is entropy incarnate. A void in the fabric of existence. And he certainly isn't lessened in the way Kreia speaks of him.

 

And titles aren't set in stone, and it can also be read as knights of the Old Republic. Not that knights need be Jedi knights, knights could be champions or heroes. The original movie didn't first appear to center around Vader and Kenobi, it's only as you watch the rest of the films does the struggle between the Jedi and the Sith become the main attraction.

 

Actually, "Knights of the Old Republic" is the title given to the paperback collectionof the the original five "Tales of the Jedi" comic books. So yes, the term is quite firmly linked to "Jedi Knights."

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tales_of_the_Jedi:_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic

[T-bolt]

Only in your opinion. It neither means that you're right or that other people need agreed with you. I certainly do not. If I want metaphors I'll look to poetry and such, certainly not in Star Wars.

Funny because Star Wars is really nothing but one big metaphor.

 

Actually, Kreia's sacrifice seemed to mirror Bastila's more than Trask's IMHO.

Except Kreia isn't captured and turned to the darkside to confront you later. Plus the whole confrontation takes place only slightly later in the game than in KotOR unlike Bastila's which happens much later in the plot.

 

That depends entirely on how you choose to approach Korriban. If you have the levels, there is nothing to stop you from going to the caves first, in which case you can run straight from the academy to the Ebon Hawk and flee.

Except Kreia warns you to do what you need to do in the Academy first so it's obvious this is the order the designers intended it to be played. Therefore it's a massive plot hole.

 

Besides, if you want to use that logic, then why doesn't KotOR...

Except I'm not talking about KotOR's failings. I have already said as cRPGs I found both lacking. I'm talking about TSL's failings because I disagree that it's anything original to Star Wars or Star Wars gaming.

 

Exactly my point. Sion doesn't know that the exile is a wound in the force and dangerous as such. To him, the exile is just another jedi. And before you say, "no, the exile is the LAST jedi he has been hunting", just bear in mind where that scene takes place - it's on Korriban, and it's just after you find the body of Vash, who was killed by Sion. She was a jedi master. But wait, Sion thought you were the last jedi, so how does that hang together? It hangs together in that Sion THOUGHT - past tense - you were the last jedi right up until that point. But then he found Vash and killed her. She was a jedi master. There weren't supposed to be any left, yet there she was. Maybe other jedi masters are out there, given that Vash was alive and he thought them all dead... So maybe the exile isn't the only one. And maybe, just maybe, "letting" the exile go can lead to other disgusting jedi...

Sion lets you go because at that point in KotOR you got to kill Bandon. Only because they've used Sion to confront you, and because they want to reuse Sion later in the game they can't allow you to kill him. That's the only reason he lets you escape.

 

It's just a prime example of KotOR's structure dictating TSL's plot.

 

Regardless, it says "Sith Lords" quite prominently on the cover. If you dislike them so much, then why did you buy the game? It's not as if there wasn't a pretty big clue to who the bad guys would be...

I don't dislike Sith Lords, but their implementation in the game. And I bought the game as an impulse buy (despite the bad reviews) because there had been a SW marathon on the TV and I was in the mood for some SW gaming at the time.

 

Well, if you're going to discount the most basic facts established in the game, then any discussion would seem to me to be as pointless as a cleric's weapon...

I'm not discounting I'm questioning. The theme of the game is manipulation, your character is being manipulated from before the game begins so I don't accept everything at face value.

 

Because it goes beyond good and evil. Nihilus is a threat to the Jedi AND the Sith. As the exile is an abomination to the Jedi, so is he an abomination to the Sith. It's a story about survival that goes beyond the finer points of ethics or morality.

But he's not otherwise why are the sith escorting him around with a battle fleet. Obviously they see him as a weapon to destroy the Jedi (which is why I've likened him to the deathstar previously) and they have, or at least believe they have the means to control and neutralise him. Or he's not what Kreia, Visas and Tobin lead you to believe he is. Otherwise you've got a great big gaping plot hole there with him being in the sith fleet.

 

And Kreia does have redeeming quality, since she is trying to liberate all living things from the oppression of the will of the force. She is not your average black-hat cheesy villain with phoney laughter like Malak. And she is far more intersting than Palpatine, because while Palpatine is sly and sneaky, his ultimate goal is to rule the galaxy just same as every other Sith Lord wannabe. Kreia, however, has a cause that overrides mere ambition and obvious thirst for power.

Or she could just be a mad old woman who's gone off over the deep end after being constantly rejected and a total failure as a teacher. And maybe Palpatine wanted to clean out the corruption and build a strong government and protect his people against any possible threat. Just along the way he became enamoured with power.

 

Yes, you end up killing her, but the reasons for it are rather more complex than "because I'm the good guy, and the good guy kills the bad guy."

Complex only in the sense that as it's an rpg there's several dialogue choices. But it still boils down to you or her.

 

You can even argue that Kreia is a heroic character, because she sacrifices herself to her cause in the end. What other Sith Lord has done that?

Well presumably Darth Bane since he founded the rule of two which would eventually lead to his death.

 

I don't understand that sentence. Sorry.

If you are rich and powerful then a simple meal of bread and water doesn't mean much to you, until you are stranded alone and starving then it becomes a feast. For the sake of argument Nihilus is the big hungry bad boy that Kreia makes him out to be then he's expecting to feed on a host of Jedi only there aren't any there except for your companions. Then he needs to feed on the destruction of Telos which will barely sustain him. So every life in the system becomes significant. And no one has said anything about him feeding off of individual deaths caused by others.

 

Why should he need to? He can just crush them all when they arrive. And if they fire weapons at him, the force will make him aware of any danger.

So if 200 droids appear on the bridge and open fire at once he's really going to deflect all the blaster bolts or even if he has the destroy droid or force storm powers he's going to destroy them all before they bring him down. What if they don't open fire with blasters but soften him up with grenades? Mandalore certainly managed to knock him down a couple of times with a few thermal detonators. They don't even need to openly attack, just pack them full of explosives and watch him go kaboom.

 

I fail to see your point here...

If he's so powerful he doesn't need the protection, and if he's a threat to both the jedi and the sith why are the sith protecting him? If he's above all the mundane things of life and just wants to feed on jedi. Or as Tobin puts it cares only for the planets and stars... then how does he come to be in the midst of a sith fleet anyway? A fleet needs organisation and leadership, but he's above all that.

 

No. As I said before, Yavin IV was burned either by the light side or by the light side clashing with the dark side. It was neither Exar Kun's intention nor his doing. He just instigated it. "Tales of the Jedi - The Sith War, issue 6" clearly says so.

I don't collect comics anymore so I don't have the issue to hand but the concept is still the same he's still a sith lord that drained the life force of the entire population of a world bar one. And the process still resulted in the destruction of that world!

 

Nope, the masters say it too, although they don't know that Nihilus was responsible, since everyone there was killed, and they don't have the "inside" information that Kreia and Visas do.

No the Jedi masters don't know anything about what's going on other than Jedi have been disappearing and Kattar was destroyed. We have only Kreia and Visas' word on who is responsible and how it was achieved. Given who they are their word is suspect!

 

This is true for almost any CRPG. To blame TSL for it but accept it for all others seems very odd to me. And there are certainly far, far worse examples out there...

Where do I accept it for all others? Hmm show me?

 

The script isn't the problem. The script is fine. The problem is that it wasn't all implemented well. That makes the plot during the endgame very confusing.

The script is the problem as obviously it was too convoluted to get done properly in time.

 

If that's your only issue, then I fail to see why you have argued so strongly.

It is not my only issue though is it. It is an injustice to denounce KotOR as being unoriginal and proclaiming TSL as original when both are as guilty as each other.

 

Well, that IS a pretty unusual idea. And while I don't credit Sion with being terribly interesting, I do think you're putting Nihilus down a lot. We've seen no other sith lords with his disposition or power that I've noticed. He sure is unusual no matter what he is. Hunger may not sound unusual in and off itself, but Nihilus does take it to a level we haven't seen before. He's not merely a drain, he's a vacuum in the force - a black hole. He is entropy incarnate. A void in the fabric of existence. And he certainly isn't lessened in the way Kreia speaks of him.

Nihilus is either badly conceived, and badly implemented or he's just a decoy and not the powerhouse he's made out to be.

 

Actually, "Knights of the Old Republic" is the title given to the paperback collectionof the the original five "Tales of the Jedi" comic books. So yes, the term is quite firmly linked to "Jedi Knights."

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tales_of_the_Jedi:_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic

The subtitle of a collection of comics isn't exactly firmly linked. Not everyone who reads the comics plays the games, and not everyone who plays the games reads the comics. But that aside it's very doubtful that the name came first. I doubt LA decided to make a game called KotOR and then looked around for the type of game it should be. Of course it didn't have to be called Knights of the Old Republic, Champions of the Old Republic could of worked (if it hadn't of been centered around the jedi) though you lose the word play in the connection to NWN.

[Jediphile]

Funny because Star Wars is really nothing but one big metaphor.

 

Funny. To me it's closer to a morality play. YMMV.

 

Except Kreia isn't captured and turned to the darkside to confront you later. Plus the whole confrontation takes place only slightly later in the game than in KotOR unlike Bastila's which happens much later in the plot.

 

Well, in that case I'm going to argue that Trask isn't a force-user and so the situations do not bear comparison.

 

Except Kreia warns you to do what you need to do in the Academy first so it's obvious this is the order the designers intended it to be played. Therefore it's a massive plot hole.

 

So if Kreia had not said that, then you would be okay with it? In that case, it's badly planned storytelling more than gaping plothole. Besides, it seems to me that if you're running from Sion, then hiding in a place of dark side energies might not be such a bad idea. That's what Yoda and Obi-Wan did for decades to hide from Vader and Sidious.

 

Except I'm not talking about KotOR's failings. I have already said as cRPGs I found both lacking. I'm talking about TSL's failings because I disagree that it's anything original to Star Wars or Star Wars gaming.

 

Actually, you've already said that it's not anything special except for Kreia, suggesting that Kreia is indeed special. It would seem fairly obvious to point straight to Kreia for originality then. You may not like her, but she is not your average Palpatine-clone, since her goals and ideals are completely different.

 

Sion lets you go because at that point in KotOR you got to kill Bandon. Only because they've used Sion to confront you, and because they want to reuse Sion later in the game they can't allow you to kill him. That's the only reason he lets you escape.

 

It's a cinematic thing. In fact, it's plot-building device. You have a failed confrontation with the bad guy. Luke had it with Vader in ESB. Revan had it with Malak in KotOR. Exile has it with Sion. Gandalf even has one with Saruman in "Lord of the Rings". It builds tension and demonstrates that the character has grown. It is a very common principle in ficticious writing to justify all the character has gone through, because before he/she couldn't defeat the bad guy, but now he/she can. Is it original? No. Is it disappointing? Not really.

 

It's just a prime example of KotOR's structure dictating TSL's plot.

 

Actually it's a prime example that TSL too follows tried and tested methods to build a plot. You could just as well argue that TSL is unoriginal because it has a powerful villain with goals that run contrary to the protagonist's interests. Sure, but that's not exactly a very enlightening observation for a piece of fantasy-fiction, since it applies to pretty much all of them.

 

I'm not discounting I'm questioning. The theme of the game is manipulation, your character is being manipulated from before the game begins so I don't accept everything at face value.

 

Well, then maybe Malak is also a robot created by GOTO to control the galaxy. Maybe Luke is a clone of Palpatine or really Obi-Wan's son instead of Anakin's. Maybe all of TSL is just a dream the exile has while he/she is floating in that kolto-tank on Peragus... And making not accepting anything makes discussion moot. I agree that it is wise to doubt anything Kreia says, and so would she, but to question everything makes discussion impossible, because we then get to claim anything. Besides, try mentioning one place in the game where Kreia flat-out lies to you - it's actually quite hard to do. Even if she bends the truth, it is no more so than when Obi-Wan "clings to truths that depend greatly on our own point of view."

 

But he's not otherwise why are the sith escorting him around with a battle fleet. Obviously they see him as a weapon to destroy the Jedi (which is why I've likened him to the deathstar previously) and they have, or at least believe they have the means to control and neutralise him. Or he's not what Kreia, Visas and Tobin lead you to believe he is. Otherwise you've got a great big gaping plot hole there with him being in the sith fleet.

 

I don't see the hole. The Sith suck up to Nihilus because he's powerful. That's the Sith way until you can replace the Sith lord yourself. And the Ravager is HIS ship. He pulled it from the graveyard and made it fly by his will - that's why it's broken and falling apart constantly. He wills it to continue and so it does, in spite of the laws of physics. The ship itself thus becomes a manifestation (and demonstration) of Nihilus' power of the Force.

 

Or she could just be a mad old woman who's gone off over the deep end after being constantly rejected and a total failure as a teacher.

 

Except that saying that someone is crazy is the cop-out, since that makes any understanding of the individual's motives and convictions redundants due to insanity. She could "just be insane", sure, but then so could Vader, Revan, Palpatine, Malak, etc. Motives and convictions may not excuse their actions, but that does not mean they are not significant.

 

And maybe Palpatine wanted to clean out the corruption and build a strong government and protect his people against any possible threat. Just along the way he became enamoured with power.

 

Given that he appears to have killed Darth Plagueis long before becoming a politician, that does not seem too likely IMHO. Not impossible, though, just highly unlikely.

 

Complex only in the sense that as it's an rpg there's several dialogue choices. But it still boils down to you or her.

 

Ah, but dialogue is Kreia's forte. To deny that is, again, to deny the very thing that makes Kreia unique.

 

Well presumably Darth Bane since he founded the rule of two which would eventually lead to his death.

 

Except he enforced that to ensure his own power and get rid of all the quarrelling Sith Lords who could threaten his own power. And in any event, if an authority figure sets up codes and rules that secure their own position at the top of the hierarchy, then that hardly seems idealistic.

 

If you are rich and powerful then a simple meal of bread and water doesn't mean much to you, until you are stranded alone and starving then it becomes a feast. For the sake of argument Nihilus is the big hungry bad boy that Kreia makes him out to be then he's expecting to feed on a host of Jedi only there aren't any there except for your companions. Then he needs to feed on the destruction of Telos which will barely sustain him. So every life in the system becomes significant. And no one has said anything about him feeding off of individual deaths caused by others.

 

Because he doesn't "feed on death" as much as he feeds on life. He is not envigorated by feeling or sensing death, but by aborbing the Force, which you could call life itself. If someone is killed on Nar Shaddaa, then that is not to Nihilus but wasted nutrition, since he would have to consume life itself. If life is ended by someone else, then he gains nothing from it, since he didn't kill life through absorbtion. In effect, someone then stole his meal ticket. But individual life is negligible to Nihilus. You're right that he can feed on it, though. Kreia clearly says so. I don't get the impression he does so during the game, however. If I understand Kreia correctly, that would be a last resort, and there are still jedi - and sith - left in the galaxy for him to consume first. So he may not even be aware that this is possible during the game itself.

 

So if 200 droids appear on the bridge and open fire at once he's really going to deflect all the blaster bolts or even if he has the destroy droid or force storm powers he's going to destroy them all before they bring him down. What if they don't open fire with blasters but soften him up with grenades? Mandalore certainly managed to knock him down a couple of times with a few thermal detonators. They don't even need to openly attack, just pack them full of explosives and watch him go kaboom.

 

He would crush them all before they even got to fire. Lobbing grenades is no problem, since he can just use the force to throw them right back. And Mandalore had the rather distinct advantage of Nihilus being far more interested in exile and Visas. Not an unwelcome distraction to be sure. Besides, I'm not certain if explosions even work on him.

 

If he's so powerful he doesn't need the protection, and if he's a threat to both the jedi and the sith why are the sith protecting him?

 

But are they? I get the impression that he is actually protecting them, or that they at least think so.

 

If he's above all the mundane things of life and just wants to feed on jedi. Or as Tobin puts it cares only for the planets and stars... then how does he come to be in the midst of a sith fleet anyway? A fleet needs organisation and leadership, but he's above all that.

 

The fleet is there to serve his will. But he probably has lieutenants similar to Visas who sense his will and organize it for him.

 

I don't collect comics anymore so I don't have the issue to hand but the concept is still the same he's still a sith lord that drained the life force of the entire population of a world bar one. And the process still resulted in the destruction of that world!

 

No. Either the light side caused the destruction or the clash between the light and the dark did. The text actually suggests the former more, but it seems obvious to me that it was indeed the clash. Exar Kun did not intend it. All the Massassi killed willing sacrificed themselves to him,they were all in the temple, and they even went there to sacrifice themselves to him. If he consumed the entire surface, then why would they need to take a single step? Besides, while the forest of Yavin IV burns as an UNINTENDED consequence, that hardly leaves the moon devoid of all life. Indeed, when Ulic returns two years later, the trees are burned, but still standing. The fire killed life in that part of the jungle - Exar Kun didn't - but there is nothing to suggest the moon was lifeless at this point. A big fire will certainly lay waste to a jungle, but there is nothing to suggest that it was planetwide or even that all life on the moon was killed. Indeed, there are big patches of green still on the planet as the jedi turn away to go home. Indeed, the Yavin IV entry on Wookieepedia also suggests this, though I don't know their sources for saying so.

 

"Other tribes may have survived until the Galactic Civil War, hidden deep in the jungles. During the Great Hunt, the moon was cleansed of terentateks by the Jedi."

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yavin_4

 

You can discount that on the basis of being Wookieepedia, of course, but it's still another source that supports the idea.

 

The official databank also says that the planet was forgotten for millennia after Kun's defeat, and since it had grown back into a lush junglemoon by the time of the Clone Wars without "help" similar to the Telos Restoration Proejct, it seems obvious that the jungle simply burned and then grew back.

 

http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/yavin4/?id=eu

 

No the Jedi masters don't know anything about what's going on other than Jedi have been disappearing and Kattar was destroyed. We have only Kreia and Visas' word on who is responsible and how it was achieved.

 

No.

 

The masters: "There was a gathering of Jedi on the planet - when we realized that something was attacking us, we resolved to meet secretly to attempt to find this threat.Then... Katarr was no more.When we felt Katarr die, there is something we felt, something we'd felt once before. An echo in the Force.We'd felt it before when you stood before us. Whatever this threat, whatever this hunger is, it is something tied to you, something you have experienced directly. This echo travels in the places where death has walked, where planets have died. Massacres fuel its power, the death of life fuels it."

 

They may not know Nihilus' name, but they certainly know of his existence.

 

Where do I accept it for all others? Hmm show me?

 

By singling TSL out and criticizing it for something that all CRPGs do.

 

The script is the problem as obviously it was too convoluted to get done properly in time.

 

Given the development schedule, which was even cut despite being very short from the outset, that was an almost inevitable consequence. Besides, if your point is that the schedule was too short to tell this story correctly - and I might agree with you on that - do you then admit that the plot was sound and deep and only needed more time to be done right?

 

It is not my only issue though is it. It is an injustice to denounce KotOR as being unoriginal and proclaiming TSL as original when both are as guilty as each other.

 

TSL did expand on the force by exploring it from a new perspective. KotOR did not.

 

Nihilus is either badly conceived, and badly implemented or he's just a decoy and not the powerhouse he's made out to be.

 

Why? Because we don't learn everything about him? I've heard that argument before, but I don't understand it. Why people must know everything about all the bad guys, I'm not sure. I agree we should have known more about Sion and his background, especially if he is to be taken seriously as a "lost love interest" for the (now canonical) female exile. But to demand it for Nihilus is pointless, since it would defeat and dispel the very mystery that is greatest and most dramatic forte in the plot. Stoker never tells us Dracula's entire background either in the original novel, and for the same reason - it would lessen the threat of the character if we learn more about him on the basis that it is always the unknown that we fear the most. For other examples, look to H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythology:

 

"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." [insert shudder here]

 

The subtitle of a collection of comics isn't exactly firmly linked. Not everyone who reads the comics plays the games, and not everyone who plays the games reads the comics. But that aside it's very doubtful that the name came first. I doubt LA decided to make a game called KotOR and then looked around for the type of game it should be. Of course it didn't have to be called Knights of the Old Republic, Champions of the Old Republic could of worked (if it hadn't of been centered around the jedi) though you lose the word play in the connection to NWN.

 

What does NWN have to do with anything?

 

And, yes, that title DOES have meaning. KotOR - the first game - was originally inspired directly by those comic books.

 

Bastila was originally meant to be Vima Sunrider. That's why she woulve have had Battle Meditation, a rare force power, just like her mother Nomi. The character who became Juhani was originally Bastila for rather obvious reasons. Actually, I'm glad they ended up not doing that - having a cathar named after the egyptian cat godess seems mighty cheesy, somehow.

 

The only reason why Revan's beloved Bastila is not Vima Sunrider was due to legal disagreements over the Sunrider name which caused the name to be dropped from the game except by one comment from Jolee, which has been said to be an oversight.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sunrider_naming_controversy

 

The game is directly inspired by those comic books. There is no mistaking that. Even Lucasarts and the devs have always said so.

[The Architect]

Well, I don’t have to make too many replies; since Jediphile has said most of the things I was going to say and probably in a less articulate way too. I do have some things to say however.

 

Except Kreia isn't captured and turned to the darkside to confront you later. Plus the whole confrontation takes place only slightly later in the game than in KotOR unlike Bastila's which happens much later in the plot.

 

I agree with Jediphile. Like Kreia, Bastila is your mentor in KotOR. They are both female, they are both force users, they both make sacrifices against a Sith Lord villain (in KotOR’s case, THE main villain); they both betray you and you have to fight them both.

 

Eh, I guess you could say TSL was unoriginal in this case, although Kreia wasn’t captured and turned to the dark side, and you can’t spare or redeem her, and while it’s possible to fight Bastila twice in KotOR, you cannot fight Kreia twice in TSL.

 

And about Nihilus? Who says that the Sith were protecting him? Who says he was protecting the Sith? The way I see it, he wasn’t protecting them, and they weren’t protecting him.

 

I think that Nihilus was slowly devouring his Sith followers, to the point where they had no will of their own, and became inhuman mini-versions of Nihilus. Why? Well, this is just a theory of mine, but anyway…

 

I can’t remember what exactly Kreia said, but she said that Nihilus mere presence kills all around him, slowly. He’s like a poison. The closer you get to him, the faster you’re devoured.

 

While you could argue that Kreia was lying, this would explain why those Sith on the Ravager bridge where Nihilus was standing were half-dead slaves of his (because they got so close to him). It also explains why the Sith assassins you kill make this bizarre, zombie like noise when you kill them, is if they were half-dead freaks, or force sucking vampires.

 

Nihilus needed to feed to survive, and travel around the galaxy to be able to feed. If you were him, wouldn’t you feed off the Sith around you, but instead of devouring them hastily, slowly devour them to keep you going, eliminate their will and make them slaves of your own? I know I would.

 

So, how come Kreia didn’t become a half-dead slave of Nihilus when she was around him? Perhaps because it took a while for Nihilus powers to evolve to the level of power he had in TSL. That makes sense, since if Nihilus was so powerful during the Jedi Civil War, why for example didn’t he devour the planet of Dantooine, which was full of Jedi?

 

@Jediphile, hmm, interesting point (about Sion). I always thought that Sion having the hots for the female Exile was just really…nonsensical and creepy. What the crap? I think it was just thrown in to even things up, since the male Exile has got Atris, so the devs must of thought give the female Exile a character who is not a party member who you fight who’s romantically interested in you as well. It would’ve helped if the “Sion’s love for the female Exile story” was expanded upon. How it could’ve been done in the game, I don’t know, but it would’ve helped.

 

As I’ve said before, you get a good idea of Sion’s back-story in TSL, and it’s clear what the causes of his hatred are. I don’t think that it hurt the plot that we didn’t learn more about Sion’s background in TSL, because if you ask me, it didn’t hurt the plot, or weaken Sion as a character.

 

Oh, and yeah, I have to agree with H.P. Lovecraft. Some secrets are best left unmasked. My older brother’s a big fan of that guy. He’s read his stories, and loves them. I’ll have to ask him where he keeps his books. I’m interested in reading some of this guy’s material. I wonder if my teenage brain can follow his material, though.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Anyway T-bolt, while I agree that TSL isn’t completely unoriginal, I don’t agree that TSL isn’t as complex or deep as KotOR, nor do I agree that TSL is a cookie-cutter copy of KotOR, nor do I agree that TSL is as big of a rip-off of the Star Wars films as KotOR is.

[T-bolt]

Well, then maybe Malak is also a robot created by GOTO to control the galaxy. Maybe Luke is a clone of Palpatine or really Obi-Wan's son instead of Anakin's.

Now you are really reaching. The trouble with TSL is that nothing has been indepentantly verified, all we ever have to go on is Kreia's word or that of people who have been corrupted or captured by the sith.

 

Maybe all of TSL is just a dream the exile has while he/she is floating in that kolto-tank on Peragus...

Oh if only!

 

 

No. Either the light side caused the destruction or the clash between the light and the dark did. The text actually suggests the former more, but it seems obvious to me that it was indeed the clash. Exar Kun did not intend it.

No it's still the case of a sith lord causing the destruction and drawing power off of it not using a death star or battlefleet.

 

Darth Malak: Sith Lord villain in possession of a super weapon who the male hero canonically (Revan) must stop. He has a mechanical jaw and a metallic sounding voice. He’s linked to the main character of KotOR Revan as Revan was his former master and best friend. The final battle of KotOR is Malak vs. Revan on the super weapon known as the Star Forge.

 

Darth Vader: Sith Lord villain in possession of a super weapon who the male hero Luke must stop. He wears a mechanical suit and has a metallic sounding voice. He’s linked to the main character of the OT Luke as Luke is his son. The final battle of the OT in RotJ is Vader vs. Luke on the super weapon known as the Death Star.

If the Architect can make basic comparisons between Malak and Vader to denounce KotOR as unoriginal then the link between Exar Kun and Nihilus is valid. Because if you go into the nitty gritty details Vader and Malak are nothing alike beyond these basic connections. To allow the disparagment of one game through paper thin comparisons but then attack similar comparisons made of TSL with paragraphs and paragraphs of minute detail is sheer hypocrisy.

 

 

By singling TSL out and criticizing it for something that all CRPGs do.

This is a discussion of TSL and KotOR is it not? Not other games. I'm not making a case for KotOR but against TSL so what do other games have to do with it?

 

do you then admit that the plot was sound and deep and only needed more time to be done right?

No I don't admit that, because it's obviously not. If the plot was sound you wouldn't have to keep coming up with these little fanfics to explain away the holes.

 

TSL did expand on the force by exploring it from a new perspective. KotOR did not.

And KotOR expanded Star Wars by putting forth the idea that Tuskens are humans, and even the origin of humans in the GFFA. This may indeed be hogswash, even HK-47 implies so in the game. But it's an idea that has as much impact on the face of Star Wars as does Kriea's philosophy.

 

And, yes, that title DOES have meaning. KotOR - the first game - was originally inspired directly by those comic books.

And Bioware wanted to set the game in that time period to allow for more artistic license. Doesn't mean that the game had to use that title or be solely about Jedi vs Sith.

 

Anyway T-bolt, while I agree that TSL isn’t completely unoriginal,

Don't you mean you agree that TSL isn't completely original?

 

I don’t agree that TSL isn’t as complex or deep as KotOR,

It's certainly more convoluted.

 

nor do I agree that TSL is a cookie-cutter copy of KotOR, nor do I agree that TSL is as big of a rip-off of the Star Wars films as KotOR is.

KotOR uses the films and EU of course, but it's plot only touches on similar aspects. TSL on the other hand borrows more heavily from ESB as well as using aspects from ROTJ and bookwise the NJO.

 

The plot was written to fit KotOR's structure, you are attacked in the same places by similar opponents, have to do similar quests in the same places and pick up similar followers. How is it not the bigger rip-off?

[Jediphile]

Now you are really reaching.

 

Then you know how I feel...

 

The trouble with TSL is that nothing has been indepentantly verified, all we ever have to go on is Kreia's word or that of people who have been corrupted or captured by the sith.

 

By that logic I suppose Vader is not Luke's father given that he fell to the dark side...

 

No it's still the case of a sith lord causing the destruction and drawing power off of it not using a death star or battlefleet.

 

No, that's not how it's described in the original material.

 

If the Architect can make basic comparisons between Malak and Vader to denounce KotOR as unoriginal then the link between Exar Kun and Nihilus is valid. Because if you go into the nitty gritty details Vader and Malak are nothing alike beyond these basic connections. To allow the disparagment of one game through paper thin comparisons but then attack similar comparisons made of TSL with paragraphs and paragraphs of minute detail is sheer hypocrisy.

 

Now you're sounding as if just because The Architect made a comparison between Vader and Malak, then it must be fair for you to make a comparison between Kun and Nihilus and have it accepted by everyone else, regardless of whether one is even appropriate or relevant.

 

Sure you can compare them, but they are still nothing alike. Just because you choose to insist that Exar Kun's actions on Yavin IV are similar to what Nihilus could do, that doesn't make it so. Obvious difference: Nihilus could drain any and all jedi on the surface of Katarr from orbit, while Exar Kun could drain not a single jedi in orbit from the ground.

 

I don't tend to agree with The Architect in the similarities he sees between Vader and Malak. For one thing, Vader is a lot less cheesy and phoney than Vader. But there are some similarities between them. Sure there are some similarities between Exar Kun and Nihilus - both are Sith Lords taught by the learnings of the ancient Sith, for example, but their similarities are far fewer than any between Malak and Vader that I can see.

 

This is a discussion of TSL and KotOR is it not? Not other games. I'm not making a case for KotOR but against TSL so what do other games have to do with it?

 

Ok, fair enough - let's leave other games out of it. In that case I still think that TSL is far more original, since Kreia's goals and Nihilus' powers are unlike anything we've seen in KotOR or the movies, while KotOR has themes and villains very much like those of the movies.

 

No I don't admit that, because it's obviously not. If the plot was sound you wouldn't have to keep coming up with these little fanfics to explain away the holes.

 

Given how many people disagree with you (and to what degree), it seems to me that it is not quite as "obvious" as you claim. You could at least acknowledge that not everybody agrees with you.

 

And I have written no fanfics for TSL. At most I have mused about its secrets, which is what good games should make players do.

 

And KotOR expanded Star Wars by putting forth the idea that Tuskens are humans, and even the origin of humans in the GFFA.

 

Actually, that idea hails all the way back to the "Outlander" comic books around the time when Episode I hit the streets, which was way back in 1999 or so.

 

This may indeed be hogswash, even HK-47 implies so in the game. But it's an idea that has as much impact on the face of Star Wars as does Kriea's philosophy.

 

Not really. First of all, it did not originate from KotOR, and second, how has it impact Star Wars in any way? Kreia's philosophies, on the other hand, have expanded the idea of what the Force may be.

 

And Bioware wanted to set the game in that time period to allow for more artistic license. Doesn't mean that the game had to use that title or be solely about Jedi vs Sith.

 

Then why did they originally choose to make Vima Sunrider, a character created by Tom Veitch, a central character of their story? No, it didn't end up that way, but that was due to the aforementioned legal controversy over the Sunrider name.

 

It's certainly more convoluted.

 

No, it certainly is not.

 

KotOR uses the films and EU of course, but it's plot only touches on similar aspects.

 

Actually, I find Revan's entire fate almost identical to an Ulic Qel-Droma with a "Bourne Identity" twist thrown in. Still a good game and plot, but not original in my book.

 

TSL on the other hand borrows more heavily from ESB as well as using aspects from ROTJ and bookwise the NJO.

 

The only thing I see it borrowing from ESB is the darker mood and the cliffhanger-sort-of ending. And given that it gives us Kreia and Nihilus, I really can't blame it for anything else it might have chosen to borrow - those two are already well above and beyond the call of duty in my book.

 

The plot was written to fit KotOR's structure, you are attacked in the same places by similar opponents, have to do similar quests in the same places and pick up similar followers. How is it not the bigger rip-off?

 

Because that's what happens in all cRPGs. What you suggest is not a rip-off of KotOR but rather following the tradition of pacing and gameplay in most cRPGs around. I can't blame TSL for that either.

[The Architect]

Now you are really reaching. The trouble with TSL is that nothing has been indepentantly verified, all we ever have to go on is Kreia's word or that of people who have been corrupted or captured by the sith.

 

Are you implying that Visas would lie about how her home world was attacked, and who it was attacked by, for example? You seem to be forgetting about the word of the Jedi Masters. You are a wound in the force. Visas was Nihilus apprentice/slave. All life on Katarr was eaten by Nihilus, who is a planet eating Sith Lord and so on. This is verified by more than one individual (and not at the same time, in the same place) in the game.

 

If the Architect can make basic comparisons between Malak and Vader to denounce KotOR as unoriginal then the link between Exar Kun and Nihilus is valid. Because if you go into the nitty gritty details Vader and Malak are nothing alike beyond these basic connections. To allow the disparagment of one game through paper thin comparisons but then attack similar comparisons made of TSL with paragraphs and paragraphs of minute detail is sheer hypocrisy.

 

Hypocrisy my ass. I don't see how your comparisons aren't as so-called "paper thin" as mine. KotOR’s clichés weren’t miniscule my friend.

 

And Malak and Vader are pretty bloody similar if you ask me.

 

-They’re both Sith Lords.

-They both have metallic sounding voices.

-They’re both tall.

-They’re both in possession of the “big space station” that the main protagonist must destroy (at least canonically with Revan).

-The main protagonist fights them at the end, on the “big space station”

-They’re both linked to the main protagonist. Malak was Revan’s former apprentice and best friend, and Vader is Luke’s father. The link between the villain and the main protagonist is used as a device for a plot twist in both stories.

-They’re both very white and bold (well, OT Vader is).

 

Clearly you can see how many aspects (character and plot) about Malak were copied from Vader. I don't know about you, but I tend to think that Malak is a big rip-off of Vader.

 

But there are some differences between them.

 

-Vader is a lot less cheesy and phoney than Malak, as Jediphile said.

-Vader doesn’t have a moronic, cringe-worthy (in a bad way) laugh like Malak does.

-Vader isn’t a one-dimensional, almost characterless villain like Malak is.

-Malak doesn’t wear a full metallic suit like Vader does. No, he wears a red pyjama suit instead. All hail the lord of spandex!

 

No I don't admit that, because it's obviously not. If the plot was sound you wouldn't have to keep coming up with these little fanfics to explain away the holes.

 

Name me at least one plot hole (that cut content wouldn’t have explained) in TSL?

 

And KotOR expanded Star Wars by putting forth the idea that Tuskens are humans, and even the origin of humans in the GFFA. This may indeed be hogswash, even HK-47 implies so in the game. But it's an idea that has as much impact on the face of Star Wars as does Kriea's philosophy.

 

LMFAO! How does the miniscule so called original concept, which according to Jediphile, whose word I confidently trust, did not even originate from KotOR, more important than a philosophy that shows new aspects and beliefs about what the force is, and could shape the fundamentals of future Jedi/Sith Orders?

 

Don't you mean you agree that TSL isn't completely original?

 

Yes. My mistake.

 

It's certainly more convoluted.

 

What? Name me at least one aspect (not something that cut content could explain) about the plot that was convoluted that hurt the plot because it wasn’t clear.

 

KotOR uses the films and EU of course, but it's plot only touches on similar aspects. TSL on the other hand borrows more heavily from ESB as well as using aspects from ROTJ and bookwise the NJO.

 

What? Its plot only touches on similar aspects. Lol! It’s exactly the same. I, and others, have already pointed out KotOR’s clichés. But go on. Tell me what aspects of the plot in KotOR weren’t copied from the movies or other Star Wars material? The only thing I found original about KotOR was Jolee and HK-47.

 

The plot was written to fit KotOR's structure, you are attacked in the same places by similar opponents, have to do similar quests in the same places and pick up similar followers. How is it not the bigger rip-off?

 

What Jediphile said.

 

No the game won't act on the defeat, but neither does TSL act on your defeat. If your entire party dies fighting on Dxun, for instance, you don't see a cut scene showing Nihilus rampaging throught the galaxy. But to have a believable menace, there must be a possible chance of losing. We don't know a lot about that time period, so it's feasible for Malak or DS Revan to win out at the starforge and then go on to conquer most of the Republic (for a short time at least). But we do know that all life wasn't wiped out so there's no possible way Nihilus is a believable threat.

 

Ah, but it’s been established that the official canonical Revan is a light-side male, so we do know that Malak or DS Revan doesn’t officially succeed, thus there is no sense of threat in KotOR. Or, if you choose to ignore canon, then remember that in TSL, the Exile can go DS, and can became a major threat to the galaxy, so if you argue that there was a sense of threat in KotOR simply because Revan could go DS, I can do the same for the Exile.

 

Remember that DS Exile has the potential to become another Nihilus. Not necessarily to the same level, but either way, DS Exile could be very dangerous, just like DS Revan. Did you know that?

[Pavlos]

Name me at least one plot hole (that cut content wouldn’t have explained) in TSL?

 

Ignoring cut content and dealing with the actual game would be wisest. By this logic we could say that KotOR had eight planets (Sleheyron) rather than seven. But as for plot holes in the actual release, I'd like to hear other people's takes on them. I didn't really think that there were that many plot holes (if any) in TSL but then again, I get so caught up in the narrative and role playing that very rare is the occasion that I can find fault in a game's plot - no matter how crummy it is .

[Jediphile]

It depends on how you define a plot hole, I guess. But the cut/rushed status of TSL should not speak to the strength of its plot, I think. The plot is sound and plotfree. The problem lies in how it's told and implemented, where the game does leave something to be desired.

 

KotOR is a better told and implemented game. There may be "what the..."-moments in KotOR, but only when the player is supposed to experience them, and never at the risk of the player being uncertain what is going on. Sadly the same cannot be said for TSL, where there is an alarming danger of the player failing to understand what's going on. In an plot-driven linear RPG that really is inexcusable. But TSL's plot is sound and more original than KotOR's IMHO.

[SilentScope001]

But as for plot holes in the actual release, I'd like to hear other people's takes on them.

 

There were really 4 plot holes I noticed:

-Mira v. Hanharr. How did Mira get on board the Ebon Hawk? Why was she left behind. (Explained via TSLRP, along with Rest of the Crew)

-Rest of the Crew. Where they have gone? Did I leave them behind? Are they dead? (Explained via TSLRP)

-Goto v. Remote. I know that in the LS ending, Malachor V blows up. So, this means Remote must have destroyed Goto. Or The Exile refused Goto's plans to turn Malachor V into a Force-User Academcy? Regardless...how? At least a cutscene (supplied via TSRLP) would do.

-Kreia. How am I able to kill her when I still have the Force Bond? (explained via Vash's cut dialouge)

 

I only notice them in my second playthrough and after reading these forums. My first playthrough was DarkSided, so I never encounted the Mira v. Hanharr cutscene, and assumed that the rest of my party was left behind at the Ebon Hawk or on another planet or just plain old dead, and that Goto seized Remote and able to use it for my plan of resurrecting the Sith Order. Kreia's Force Bond is the last remaining plothole but I never cared about it, since I was so fansiciated at Kreia's motives. So, really, I never encounted any plot holes as well.

 

Which is yet another reason why DS is the way to play TSL.

[Jediphile]

-Kreia. How am I able to kill her when I still have the Force Bond? (explained via Vash's cut dialouge)[/Quote]

 

Was it, though? I realise that Vash mentions the bond can break, if one of those involved falls to the dark side, and since Kreia obviously embraces the dark side late in the game, that may seem to explain it. However...

 

1. The exile can be dark sided thoughout the game without causing the bond to be affected in the slightest. Or the exile can be LS. It just doesn't matter.

 

2. If the exile describes the bond with Kreia, Vash was also to say: "That is most unnatural. This bond you share with Kreia is not like any I've ever heard of. How did it come to be?" - That's hardly an indication that it is subject to the same rules that normally apply for force bonds (see point 1).

 

Kreia's Force Bond is the last remaining plothole but I never cared about it, since I was so fansiciated at Kreia's motives. So, really, I never encounted any plot holes as well.

 

It is unexplained, if you ask me. However, I don't think it's an oversight. I think was left intentionally vague and "abandoned" so that it could be elaborated on in K3. But that is a supposition on my part.

[legend222]

The bond between the Exile and Kreia is well explained. When you first talk to her about it she states that when both of them are in battle than their minds are prepared to shield them from the pain. And Zez says that for the bond to break one of them would have to die.