The Theism/Atheism Discussion

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Well, I wasn't really trying to be a smart-***, though.... --Jae

Maybe you're a natural then.

[Ghost Down]

I'm an atheist, and I view organized religion as a crutch for people who are too weak to make it through life on their own. I'm the kind of guy that says if I don't see it, then it doesn't work.

 

I also feel religion is the ultimate form of mind control that is perfectly legal, and I believe religion is a load of ****.

 

My 2 cents of the whole religion thingy.

[jonathan7]

If only that had begun "Often,..."

 

I may have made a mistake when typing it up/missing the text from the book.

 

Err, no I don't. I think it's my turn to be old and tired today.

 

 

I have no doubt that you have many friends, as I know you to be quite the agreeable fellow

 

Thanks You haven't seen my play football (soccer) tho

 

Still that matter of reasonable vs unreasonable worldviews though

 

Seeing as my world view is considered unreasonable; lets have a review of it;

 

First is to seek the truth wherever it may lead. I think the truth leads me to the conclusion that Jesus is God so my actions should be defined and shaped by this;

 

“Love the Lord Jesus with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength and Love your neighbour as yourself.”

From this follows;

 

Where there are the lost, may I bring Jesus, his love and the Gospel

.

Where there is darkness, may I bring light.

Where there is hate, may I bring love.

Where there is evil, may I bring righteousness.

Where there are vices, may I bring virtue.

Where there is foolishness, may I bring wisdom.

Where there is revenge, may I bring forgiveness.

Where there is judgement, may I bring grace.

Where there is condemnation, may I bring redemption.

Where there is hypocrisy, may I bring sincerity.

Where there is disgrace, may I bring honour.

Where there is in in-justice, may I bring justice

Where there is corruption, may I bring integrity.

Where there is pain, may I bring relief.

Where there is suffering, may I bring aid.

Where people are broken, may I bring healing.

Where there is ignorance, may I bring knowledge.

Where there is stupidity, may I bring intelligence.

Where there is pride, may I bring humility.

Where there is deceit, may I bring honesty.

Where there are those with no voice, may I bring representation.

Where there is tyranny, may I bring freedom.

Where there is censure, may I bring liberty.

Where there is fundamentalism, may I bring tolerance.

Where there are the forgotten, may I bring remembrance.

Where there are the downtrodden, may I bring elevation.

Where there are the poor, may I bring charity.

Where there is prejudice, may I bring acceptance.

Where there is discord, may I bring harmony.

Where there is failure, may I bring success.

Where there is war, my I herald peace.

 

Where ever I go may I bring Jesus and his love.

 

May Jesus do all these things through me for his praise, honour and glory and to make the world a better place for my fellow man.

 

Still unreasonable?

 

I will also deal with this now, as it has sufficiently irked me to reveal something;

 

I'm an atheist, and I view organized religion as a crutch for people who are too weak to make it through life on their own. I'm the kind of guy that says if I don't see it, then it doesn't work.

 

Right, I don't like religion lets clariffy that. I think it can be 'used' as a crutch, and many cane be brainwashed by it (as with other things). I don't think most Western Christians represent Christianity as they should.

 

However given that I'm classified as a 'religious' person I shall respond. it has been remarked by my friends, that for my few short years on earth, I have rather alot of life expierance...

 

Tell me GD, you dared any drug dealers to shoot you recently? See I'm a religious person, and religion makes my life more difficult; now I don't much like discussing my works, however... So above scenario, I was out in Birmingham and a drug dealer was trying to push some drugs onto a friend of mine. She's scared and is going to take ecstasy and pay this dealer for the 'priveledge' so I come over and tell him to leave her alone, he doesn't and said something about do you know who I am? It ends with me having a gun put in my face, and I tell him, if he wants to force her to take drugs, he has to shoot me before she ever has to take them. He backs down and goes. Why did I do that? a) because I don't think my friend is a Christian, and so if she died of taking ecstasy... b) I love my friend and will do whatever I have to protect them. Is my religion a crutch?

 

I promise that when you finally provide that evidence that convinces me to convert, I'll tell everyone that you won.

 

I'm not interested in 'winning' this argument, or you tellimg anyone that I've won, however I hope you understand as a friend I would like you to convert; and I think you have a good enough understanding of Christianity to understand why I think that.

 

I think you misunderstood my argument.

 

Quite possibly

 

How you feel is beside the point. The point was that, in some cases, by examing the reasoning rather than the argument, you remove some of subjectivity.

 

The world is a horrible place in the main because people are selfish and horrible to one another, do you disagree?

 

I shall leave that for now...

 

Take Care

[Ghost Down]

Is my religion a crutch?

More like a disability.

[jonathan7]

More like a disability.

 

Meh, believe what you want, my beliefs make my life far harder, I'll only re-quote what one of my friends had to say...

 

once i read somewhere "love me when i least deserve it because that is when i most need it". through experience i have reached to the point where i can believe when i step back from love fear shadows me and i find myself in constant sense of insecurity.

JON; you have a great heart and i deeply respect your passion for making a difference in this world, but many of the points you have mentioned in your article are merely theoritical models , in reality it is like the battle of very few compassionate poeple like yourself who choose to live an honorable glorious short life against those who choose to survive at any cost and live a long life of feeding their greed . throughout the whole human history having believes and ideas has been the biggest crime and been punished severely .

a very big example is political correctness in the UK .

 

i did enjoy reading every single line of your article immensely, it was so heart warming , you have a gift , use it to make a difference .

[Achilles]

I may have made a mistake when typing it up/missing the text from the book.

Dunno. I haven't seen the quote before.

 

<snip pics>

I know who the people are. I don't know what analogy you're referencing though (post #450)

 

Seeing as my world view is considered unreasonable; lets have a review of it;

 

<snip>

 

Still unreasonable?

I think we're dangerously close to equivocating here.

 

Big difference between behaviors and motivations. You seem to be addressing the former, while I was hoping to discuss the latter.

 

I'm not interested in 'winning' this argument, or you tellimg anyone that I've won, however I hope you understand as a friend I would like you to convert; and I think you have a good enough understanding of Christianity to understand why I think that.

You brought up losing so I tried to make light of it.

 

The world is a horrible place in the main because people are selfish and horrible to one another, do you disagree?

In order to answer your question, I think I'd need to share the belief that the world is a horrible place.

 

Regardless, I'm not sure how that's related to what we were discussing.

 

I shall leave that for now...

 

Take Care

You too, my friend.

[ET Warrior]

Tell me GD, you dared any drug dealers to shoot you recently? *story*

Honestly...I can't figure out how this relates at all to how religion is/is not a crutch...it speaks volumes to your character as a person, but seems to have nothing to do with religion at all...

[jonathan7]

Achilles my friend - sorry for the flying post - been quite busy (or at least, I havent had enough free time; to spend the couple of hours of intensity needed to answer all our previous posts, I hope you know what I mean, I'm hoping to have enough time tomorrow to give it the attention it deserves )

 

Honestly...I can't figure out how this relates at all to how religion is/is not a crutch...it speaks volumes to your character as a person, but seems to have nothing to do with religion at all...

 

Because honestly my religious belief makes my life a hell of alot more difficult. I quit university to look after my friends who are shall we say rather heavily into illicit drugs and suffice to say there are some rather dark reasons behind that. Why did I quit uni? Because my question was - if Jesus was me, what would he do? The same is applied to my reaction to the drug dealer.

 

Or another example:

 

In my first year of university I was head hunted by Mercedes for a rather well paid job (I would have been on alot more than what any of my friends who have graduated are on) - why did I not take it? Because I didn't think it would improove the world; it would however have made my life again easier.

 

Why did I not take it? Again I don't think that is something Jesus would have done. Now I'm not too fussed about many things people may say, but I know my life is a damn site harder because of what I believe, so I do not take particuarly kindly to being told the opposite.

 

If my responce was not pertinant to the thread, perhaps the posts that I responded to with regards that is 'at fault' and not me responding to it.

[ET Warrior]

I wasn't saying your response wasn't pertinent to the thread, more that it wasn't relevant in the context of the question.

 

All of your examples again speak to your character as a person, but seem very irrelevant to religion. I very much doubt your decisions would differ much whether you were or were not a believer and follower of Christianity. An absence of Jesus does not mean an absence of moral compass, and you would very probably still have the same idea of right and wrong.

[Darth InSidious]

So...you are arguing that a person's nature affects there actions and modes of thought, but not the other way around? A bad person does bad things because they are bad?

 

How pre-Aristotelian.

[ET Warrior]

I am arguing that if jonathan7 were to stop being a Christian he would still very likely make the same life decisions. (except for the going to church and praying decisions...those would probably change)

[Darth InSidious]

So you are saying that morality is inherent, and not influenced by modes of thought or actions?

[Achilles]

So you are saying that morality is inherent, and not influenced by modes of thought or actions?

There is quite bit of research that argues that morality is inherent. V.A. Ramachandran's work with mirror neurons is one such line of research (link)

[Darth InSidious]

It's an interesting argument - and I admit I haven't read all the documents presented by any chalk - although if I have time, I shall endeavour to get through as much as I can. I have a few doubts, 'though.

 

First, I would guess that most of these tests were performed on sane adults, which would mean that societal/cultural moral values would already be present in the person's consciousness. Based on this, I would express some doubt as to the utility of this evidence in inferring that morality is inherent.

 

Second, the existence of societies and cultures with radically different moral systems and conceptions of what is right to our own throws some doubt, for me, on this explanation. The Spartan Krupteia, the South American civilisations that existed before its discovery by Columbus, the human sacrifice present in First Dynasty Egypt would all seem to suggest that while a conception of morality is inherent, our conception of morality may not be.

 

In any case, perhaps I was unclear. By "inherent", what I meant was that our actions are predetermined by our nature, and that our nature is not affected by our actions. Apologies for the lack of clarity there.

[Achilles]

First, I would guess that most of these tests were performed on sane adults, which would mean that societal/cultural moral values would already be present in the person's consciousness. Based on this, I would express some doubt as to the utility of this evidence in inferring that morality is inherent.

I would speculate that this is not the case though. Normally discoveries such as these tend to come from studying abnormal brains rather than "normal" ones. Certainly a strong understanding of how "normal" brain functions is necessary as a control, but that's about it.

 

For instance, if I know that a normal brain has X level of mirror neurons present but the brain of sample A only has Y level, then, all other things being equal, I might be able to argue for a causal relationship ("Behavior as exhibited by sample A can be directly linked to irregularities with mirror neurons", etc).

 

Second, the existence of societies and cultures with radically different moral systems and conceptions of what is right to our own throws some doubt, for me, on this explanation. The Spartan Krupteia, the South American civilisations that existed before its discovery by Columbus, the human sacrifice present in First Dynasty Egypt would all seem to suggest that while a conception of morality is inherent, our conception of morality may not be.

Without having discussed it at length, I would venture to guess that this could probably be explained by in-group biases (in the case of human sacrifices of slaves, lower caste members, prisoners of war, etc). For instances where we're talking about sacrificing members of one's own tribe, family, group, etc, then I think then we're discussing the power of superstition, peer pressure, etc in ancient cultures. Not that it isn't up for discussion, only that there are plausible explanations available.

 

In any case, perhaps I was unclear. By "inherent", what I meant was that our actions are predetermined by our nature, and that our nature is not affected by our actions. Apologies for the lack of clarity there.

We may or may not be missing each other by much here. I think that we'd need to operationally define what we mean by "our nature" and that would probably take up a thread of its own

[Arcesious]

well, as being Agnostic now, I've been researching more and more from both sides and attempting to give them equal grounds in my mind... However, as a response to the moral arguments against the Christian God, I have a reponse against the beleif of the Christian God being 'moral' now...

 

First off, If I've interpretted this correctly, I've been suprised to find teaching of racial superiority in Ezra and Nehemiah 7-13... Basically, as I've interpretted it, the Jews were intermarrying with other races. People like Ezra got really mad at them, and told them that it was a very wicked thing to be 'mixing with impure races'... What would be so horrible about marrying soemone from another race/nationality? I don't neccessarily think that Jews marrying with other races would lead all of them to worship idols and 'false gods'... Also, in the Bible, 'God' doesn't seem to adhere to 'freedom of religion'. In the old testament, Christianity is pretty much forced on many different cultures, and those who don't beleive it die. At least that's what it seems liek to me. I don't think I'm interpretting this badly with Exegises either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exegesis

In the Bible, 'God' teaches not to force your beleifs on someone, but who is 'God' to say that when 'he' doesn't follow 'his' own rules? Oh, sure, you'll probably try to argue 'But God doesn't need to apply to those rules because he's God'. What kind of an argument would that be? God is described as being a benevelant and tolerate being, however, in the Bible, he literally violates those descriptions of himself. I'm not putting God on trial though- I'm simply trying to expose what I've interpretted as some major contradictions in the Bible.

Also, all the death of other races- what is that supposed to be? Victory of the Jews? I call it the slaughtering and enslavement of other races. Sure, as the story goes, the Jews were slaves in Egypt for a long time, and were punished by God for ignorance, and enslaved by soem other races, but how does that justify them to take away the land of other races, enslave them, and murder them?

From the Christian point of view, I'd describe it as the 'Jews be given what God said they'd get, and defeating the ignorant races'.

But, I'll voyage to ask you too look at it from another point of view- the view of the enemies of the Jews at that time.

You are a soldier, enlisted in an army of another race, who beleives soemthing you've been led to beleive, which is not Christianity. You've seen and heard of the Jews defeating other races and taking their territory, and forcing their beleifs on their prisoners. Some of the people of those races who died were close friends of yours.

You want to avenge their deaths, and defend your country, and to keep your home and family safe and free.

If God is so perfect, why couldn't he have shown those people of those races 'the truth of himself', and taught everyone tolerance and democracy, and how to live interracially mixed together, to altogether live happily? God knows everything, according to you, yes? If he knows everything, he certainly could know how to persuade people who normally won't listen to him to beleive in himself, since we've estabilished that since God knows everything, no one can truly have free will if he exists.

If God knows everything, he could have prevented racism and all those other horrible things at a much earlier time. Why would God tolerate slavery, racism, and polygamy at that time of humanity's history, if he could have very easily prevented it; yet he didn't? Why allow humanity to suffer though all those things when, if you know everything, and can do anything, you can prevent it, presuade all humanity to your way of thinking, and show them what the consequences would be if it happened? Why would you not follow what you teach others? Wouldn't that be within the terms of a strong term called 'hypocrisy'? Honestly, our definition of God is that he is an all-powerful, allknowing, a perfect being. What it seems like to me, at least, is that the Bible has soem stories that go against God's decribed being that create soem contradictiosn and hypocrisy in the Bible (IE, all that I've said in this post, and the Biblical view of Homosexuality), and some stories and principals that are very good. Before you say that some parts of the Bible might not be true, consider this:

If you were God, and were all powerful, why would you allow the teaching of yourself to be corrupted?

[Rev7]

In the Bible, 'God' teaches not to force your beleifs on someone, but who is 'God' to say that when 'he' doesn't follow 'his' own rules?

Well, perhaps He made them for us to follow, not for himself?

[Achilles]

There is quite bit of research that argues that morality is inherent. V.A. Ramachandran's work with mirror neurons is one such line of research (link)

I came across this book today and thought I would give it a mention for anyone interested:

 

Mirroring People: The New Science of How We Connect with Others

 

Mirror neurons are being touted as a possible source of inherent moral behavior and a potential explanation for illnesses such as autism.

 

[/off-topic]