Vacating Hell: Iraq

[Windu Chi]

I believe we should stay there and help until they have a large enough army to combat the insurgents themselves.

They just don't need a army a air force too.

The timeline for all that would mean a U.S. military stay of at least 50 yrs.

But that is just a guess, it's probably longer then that.

I don't see a solution no time soon, maybe a couple of generations.

[Son of Skywalker15]

This is the effect of something almost 2,000 years old, windu6. This isn't something new, the terror in Iraq or anywhere in the Middle East. I just wanted you to realize that this isn't just since we've been here, it's since the Sunnis and the Shiites split after Muhammad's death, and the Crusades were also a catalyst.

[Rogue15]

I don't think we'll be there for 50+ years. 5 years at the most seems sufficient. maybe you should check these websites out:

 

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/

http://www.army.mil/

[Nancy Allen``]

What if there arose another Mohammed, or Saladin? Someone who was able to unite the whole fabric of Middle Eastern culture, especially against a common enemy such as America? Doesn't Osama Bin Laden fancy himself as trying to do just that? What would happen if the Muslim world was united whether or not it was against a common enemy?

[Tinny]

I think that we can't win, Vietnam and Korea failed so why try a broken plan?

 

 

We maintained Korea and now South Korea is one of our strongest allies, Vietnam we lost because we backed out in the Paris peace accords.

[Son of Skywalker15]

What if there arose another Mohammed, or Saladin? Someone who was able to unite the whole fabric of Middle Eastern culture, especially against a common enemy such as America? Doesn't Osama Bin Laden fancy himself as trying to do just that? What would happen if the Muslim world was united whether or not it was against a common enemy?

 

Saladin, during the 2nd Crusade, unified Muslims against the Christians against a common enemy,yes. However, America may be a "common enemy", but we certainly are made of just Christians. That's why I don't like the comparison. Also, the Muslims aren't unifying, rather, radical muslims are unifying. We can forestall this unification of the terrorist, and we should try.

[CLONECOMMANDER501]

Islam should just be replaced. Maybe we could "bio-engineer" A new popular form of Islam to distract the mulsims in Iraq long enough for us to escape.

[Prime]

The Iraqis have guns don't they?

Sure, but do they have the effective manpower?

 

Let them defend themselves. We went to war on BS claims, and we're wasting a crapload of money maintaining a presence there. Just pull out and fix our deficit, among other local problems.

I get the sense that you don't care what happens there.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

I get the sense that you don't care what happens there.

It's not a lack of empathy that's the problem, it's that the situation seems to be impossible to resolve, and is thus a waste of tax dollars and the lives of Coalition servicemen.

[Nancy Allen``]

Could you live with the Insurgents crucifying innocent men, raping, tortuing and killing innocent women and killing innocent children were America to leave?

[swphreak]

No I don't (Prime), and yes I could (Nancy).

 

Perhaps our next President will have a new Plan for Iraq that will actually work, I don't know. But right now, I don't see much of a point in staying there. I guess the oil could be a reason, but I wouldn't fuss if we lost it.

 

As I mentioned before, our staying or leaving will make no difference to the region. People are still going to be killed, kidnapped, raped, bombed, ect. It's the frickin' Middle East. By pulling out we'll save money, and no more of our soldiers will be killed.

[Nancy Allen``]

Well I do care what happens there, and maybe you're right in saying that it will be the same whether or not we leave. I'd like to think, best case scenario, that the situation improves with no Americans to kill in Iraq. I'm not sure that's possible though.

[Windu Chi]

Could you live with the Insurgents crucifying innocent men, raping, tortuing and killing innocent women and killing innocent children were America to leave?

They are already partially doing some of that, Nancy.

 

I'm not sure about the killing of innocent women and killing of innocent children, I'm assuming some of them are raping women and the tortuing men, that has already been confirm with the actions of the roaming death squads.

They torture some and murder others.

 

This war is a stalemate for both sides, the troops will keep dying until we don't have any more willing volunteers to send to that meatgrinder and the counter on that is decreasing fast.

The insurgents will keep sending people to die in skirmishes until there aren't no more volenteers or victims in Iraq to die in the skirmishes with the U.S. army and the marines, al-Qaida have millions of willing participants to die for nothing across this planet.

 

Islam should just be replaced. Maybe we could "bio-engineer" A new popular form of Islam to distract the mulsims in Iraq long enough for us to escape.

What the hell are you talking about?

[Prime]

As I mentioned before, our staying or leaving will make no difference to the region.

I think this is the part I disagree with. I think the US leaving will make a difference. For the worse, in the case of the people who live there. But if you don't care, then there isn't much more to debate on that.

[Nancy Allen``]

Apparently much of the reason for the turmoil is because of people such as Al Qaeda who have come to Iraq to fight the Americans. Now if we leave there's every chance they will leave as well, but they might not and try and take out what democracy is being attempted in Iraq.

[The Source]

I am beginning to think about it this way:

 

Have our troops leave Iraq. Why? If the Iraqis want freedom and stability, they will fight for it when under pressure. If they do not want freedom, that is not my problem. I do not think we should die for a country where people do not fight for themselves. Living in the United States gives me a unique perspective. If you look at US history, you will find that our freedom comes from a wanting. We desired certain freedoms that Europe did not want to give us, so we came to a new world. Once we started to become stabble, British military tired to take our freedoms away. Since we desired our freedom and liberties, we picked up arms and started to fight.

 

If we stay in Iraq for too much longer, the Iraqi people will not pick up arms. They need to stand on their own two feet, they need to fall, and then they need to rise for their own freedoms and liberties. If they cannot do this on their own, that is their own problem. Period.

[Nancy Allen``]

And what exactly have you done that this issue makes it your problem? mm? because you're an American?

 

I'm Canadian. This falls under the fallacy of Guilt by Association (you're the enemy because you're American), Converse Accident (you generalise that Americans think this way), Complex Question (generalising that being American makes one personally responsible) and an attempt of Poisoning the Well (his view isn't valid because he's American.) Using your logic should we put the blame for deaths in Iraq on all Muslims because Iraqi, Suuni, Shi'ite and Al Qaeda terrorists are having at it? If not you are also guilty of Special Pleading, dressing yourself up to appear that you are not to be subjected to the judgement you level at others.

 

I've my roots in Iraq, which makes me an Iraqi.

 

But your profile says you're from Sweedan, which makes this Non Sequiter.

 

I've read in so many posts all around the web...

 

:snip:

 

Unless you can back up these quotes with conclusive evidence this is Ad Hominem as well as a Strawman. Throw in Special Pleading as well because it would seem you believe it is alright for it to be done to Amercan soldiers (which is false) and not the other way around, for American soldiers to do it (even falser).

 

So hey, American, your people caused this mess, now they will fix it.

 

This moves away from debating the topic and instead levels the attack at the person, Ad Hominem. It is also Questionable Cause (the uprising of violence occured when Saddam was ousted from power, so therefore America must be held responsible rather than Sunnis Shi'ites and Al Qaeda), and Guilt by Association (blaming any American for Bush's decision to invade Iraq and the soldiers fighting for him).

 

And I hope the mods don't think this is overstepping the line but given your last statement I feel it nessecary. The worldwide forces against terrorism; which is what you have stated to become, a terrorist, are second to none. From America's Special Operations Force Detatchment Delta to Canada's Joint Task Force, from Great Britain's Special Air Service to Germany's Grenzschutzgruppe 9, from Russia's Spetznaz to Israel's Isayeret, their lives and their goals are centred on the hunting down and killing of terrorists, who you have said that you want to become. I happen to know quite a bit about the GSG-9 as well as the Army Rangers, including what they do to terrorists, both the tactics used to kill them and what happens to those they capture. Picture 24 or the Punisher for a taste of what to expect if you do follow through with your desire to become a terrorist. So with that in mind, I am begging you to join up with them. I'm just saddened that I wouldn't get the chance to see you captured alive, if you're lucky. Abu Ghraib is nothing compared to what I would do to people with the opinions and the attitude you have displayed here.

[The Source]

If they do not want freedom, that is not my problem.

 

And what exactly have you done that this issue makes it your problem? mm? because you're an American? Haha!!! I've my roots in Iraq, which makes me an Iraqi. I've read in so many posts all around the web...

 

American ex.soldier1: OH YEAH, HAVE YOU TO SERVED IN IRAQ?! IT WAS AWESOME! I KILLED 20 PEOPLE, DUNNO IF THEY WHERE CIVILIANS BECAUSE THEY ALL LOOK A LIKE!

 

American ex.soldier2: HELL YEAH MOFO!!! KILL EM ALL!

 

American ex.soldier: I KILLED A 14 YEAR OLDS FAMILY AND THEN I RAPED HER, AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS COURT MARTIAL.

 

Can't you see? are you blind? people go to Iraq for only one reason, to kill and gain some war experience.

 

Journalist: Is it true that Saddam hussein has nuclear weapons?

 

George.W.B: eh.. Yes!! (No, i just want a reason to invade Iraq and take their OIL) .. Yes, they have nuclear weapons and we will proceed with operation "Iraqi Freedom"

 

So hey, American, your people caused this mess, now they will fix it.

 

P.S this thread only make me hate Americans even more, maybe I'll join the fanatics and come cut your ****ing head off and show it in public television standing next to Usama bin ladin, i bet your FAMILY would be devastated.

You are an interesting fellow. I am not going to start with what you have just done wrong. I do suggest that you should be more civil in the future. I personally do not hate Iraqis, but I do think they should fight their own wars.

 

Well, welcome to the forums.

[Spider AL]

Ah, the Iraq-related threads always seem to pop up, don't they. That's a good thing, the issue needs to be discussed.

 

There is an assumption routinely made that we (the US and UK) are doing more good than harm by remaining in Iraq. Sadly, this is an assumption without basis in fact, as far as I can tell.

 

We are of course a focus for violence in Iraq. Those Iraqis who collaborate with our puppet Iraqi government become the targets of extremists, and our presence as an occupying invading force provides a great deal of political ammunition to those who wish to incite violence against those targets.

 

The fact is that we immorally butchered Iraq. Not merely in this most recent illegal invasion, but over years and years with bombings, economic sanctions and wars. Our presence in Iraq is always going to be a thorn in the side of peace.

 

Add to this the fact that we provide little or no security for Iraqis even in the tiny "green zone" where we hold the most sway, and frankly the conclusion is obvious. We are doing more harm than good through our presence as an occupying force. We're not stopping violence, we're creating violence. We're not providing security for the Iraqi people, we're endangering them. Therefore we should leave.

 

Of course, though interesting, this is all moot. The Iraqi people don't want us there as an occupying force, according to polls conducted by our own governments from 2004 to 2006. And since the Iraqi people are the victims... OUR victims, THEIR wishes should be honoured. We have no right to make this decision, end of story. Just end of story.

 

Does a man who invades your home have the right to decide whether to stay or leave? Of course he doesn't. We don't have that right either.

 

I'd like to vote in the thread poll too, but the options don't make any sense.

[Windu Chi]

 

I'd like to vote in the thread poll too, but the options don't make any sense.

You always got a smartass comment to say don't you.

Your arrogance will be your undoing.

The options do make sense, there just stated in my special flavor.

 

You have no sense of humor.

Do you ?

[ET Warrior]

Actually I am inclined to agree with Spider Al, Windu. I myself have not voted because I honestly don't understand the poll.

[Windu Chi]

Actually I am inclined to agree with Spider Al, Windu. I myself have not voted because I honestly don't understand the poll.

Ok, ET I will make clear.

 

Option 1: al-Qaida wipes us out; some people believe that if we leave Iraq too soon al-Qaida will become more sucessful lanching attacks in the U.S.

Option 2: A genocide will occur in Iraq, beacause of sectarian violence geting way to out of hand.

 

Option 3: Or, we live happily ever after; No negative result will occur or the Iraqis will get on the ball and take control of their country's future.

 

Is that more clear now, ET ?

 

But Spider is still a arrogant pesk, I know you have notice that.

Unless you and him are friends.

[Spider AL]

What's a pesk?

 

Speaking purely for myself, I thank windu for his enhanced version of the poll options, but I don't think any of them reflect the reality in Iraq.

 

The fact is that we've decimated the country, if we leave it'll still be decimated, but a major focus for violence will have been removed. As for "al qaida", they aren't responsible for the vast majority of the violence in Iraq and there's no reason to suspect that their negligible influence will increase in any meaningful way if we leave. In fact, it might increase if we stay. And there's definitely no happy ending on the cards for the Iraqi people. We've ruined their nation. Now we should leave them to determine their own future without our hindrance.

 

So I can't very well vote in the poll. Shame.

[swphreak]

I've taken the liberty of fixing the poll. It's rather clear and simple now. Everyone who voted should be able to revote.

 

windu6, here's some advice. Try to be clearer in your posts and polls. I can barely understand half of what you say as it is.

 

And let's all refrain from calling each other names. This is a serious forum and discussion.

 

Edit: And the poll is actually fixed this time. Now you can revote.

[Spider AL]

That rocks. Have voted.

 

It's worth pointing out that leaving Iraq completely and never looking back is not an option that myself or other dissidents generally favour.

 

I am in favour of removing the occupying force but... maintaining many advisors (some would quite possibly be military) to assist the Iraqi people, WHATEVER their decisions regarding the US puppet government. I'm also in favour of pumping a great deal of cash into the country. So I have voted "other" in order to be totally clear.