Using Opposite Force Powers

[Prime]

He might not recognize Qui-Gon as a Jedi, but he (at least jokingly) suggests he is one. If he didn't think Qui-Gon was a Jedi, why did he bother to explain that mind tricks didn't work on him?

For the benefit of the audience ultimately. As you say, it was a bit of a joke used to explain why Jinn couldn't just convince him to do what he wanted.

 

Are you suggesting non-Jedi can use mind tricks?

Not at all. I'm suggesting that the fact he uses a "chance cube" to decide something with a Jedi right there with an interest in the outcome, and the fact he doesn't know how Jinn knew Anakin was going to win suggests that he did not know Jinn was a Jedi. Otherwise his responses and decisions would have been different.

 

Also, Watto recognized Anakin as a Jedi in AotC.

But Anakin was wearing a lightsaber at the time, which Watto no doubt saw. Anakin knew Jinn was a Jedi because of it, which is why Jinn kept it concealed.

 

But the Jedi were thought to be extinct. Those stormtroopers probably weren't familiar with mind tricks, much less be expecting them.

Which I think makes it just as likely for them to say something. Does that conversation sound in any way normal to an outside observer who doesn't know on side is a Jedi?

 

I don't remember that...

So you don't have to take my word for it. Here is the section I am refering to...

 

 

Dooku had years of training as a Jedi, and presumably years of learning to be a Sith. It's not unreasonable to think that he could control his emotions (at least outwardly) to an extent.

But why would he want to? The Sith teach about embracing your hatred and anger!

 

You can't really assign a "Light" or "Dark" side to most of these abilities. Prescience? Telekinesis? Telepathy? Mind Reading? Mind games? Er, trick. Even Lightning could be used in a light side capacity, look at Electric Judgment? (Yeah, that's not Jedi propaganda to make people feel better.) It's Light Side Force Lightning, even Luke uses it.

Force lightning has been explicitly specified as a Sith and dark side power in g-canon.

 

And Judgment doesn't contradict the movies at all. The movies never state that X Force Power is Light Side while X Force Power is Dark Side.

No, but Lucas does, which make it g-canon, which makes it higher canon than the EU.

[mimartin]

Toydarians are impossible to trick (so they're theoretically "strong minded"), yet Qui-Gon was able to fool Watto into rolling dice that anyone familiar with Jedi (as Watto appeared to be) would know could be easily manipulated.

 

The problem was Qui-Gon Jinn knew Watto’s weakness and even if Watto might have suspected that Qui-Gun was Jedi it would save him from his own demons. Watto was a compulsive gambler and Qui-Gon’s knowledge of this is what made Watto so easy to manipulate. It does not matter how smart or strong minded a compulsive gambler is, the motivation to gamble is one that is very difficult to resist.

[GarfieldJL]

Actually Qui-Gon used the force to manipulate the dice so he would he'd win Anakin if Anakin won. He didn't manipulate Watto with the force though.

[mimartin]

Actually Qui-Gon used the force to manipulate the dice so he would he'd win Anakin if Anakin won. He didn't manipulate Watto with the force though.

 

I was speaking about how Qui-Gon got Watto to agree to the bet. What I wrote had nothing to do with the dice or the outcome.

[Ecthelion]

You can't just disregard the EU, Ecthelion. And Judgment doesn't contradict the movies at all. The movies never state that X Force Power is Light Side while X Force Power is Dark Side.

Sure I can. The EU is full of things that contradict the movies (such as Luke facing Darth Vader before ESB, Boba Fett's origin, etc). As others have stated, "Light side" lightning contradicts the movies also. We never see Light side Jedi use powers like lightning. The only people we've seen use it are Dooku and Palpatine - two Sith.

 

Which I think makes it just as likely for them to say something. Does that conversation sound in any way normal to an outside observer who doesn't know on side is a Jedi?

No, it doesn't sound like a normal conversation. Still, stormtroopers would respect the chain of command, and wouldn't question him in front of a civilian. If they questioned him later, it wouldn't really matter for Obi-Wan's purposes because he would be elsewhere by then.

 

There's another possibility also. Let's assume Obi-Wan was able to trick all of the stormtroopers present. Perhaps Luke wasn't that skilled at tricking minds. After all, the first time we saw him use it was on Bib Fortuna. Comparing this to Jedi Outcast, we could say Obi-Wan had Mind Trick level 3, while Luke had Mind Trick level 1.

 

So you don't have to take my word for it. Here is the section I am refering to...

 

 

But why would he want to? The Sith teach about embracing your hatred and anger!

You're right about Dooku. It seems that half the time he's gritting his teeth in anger, and half the time he's as calm as any Jedi. As I said before, perhaps he hasn't completely turned his back on his Jedi teachings, and finds it helpful to remain calm sometimes. After all, Palpatine said that Anakin should embrace a "larger view of the Force" - suggesting that he should make use of both Light side and Dark side teachings. Also, perhaps Dooku's long history as a Jedi was a weakness to his Sith abilities? It could have been one of the reasons Palpatine wanted to replace him.

 

Consider this. We've seen 4 Sith in the movies: Palpatine, Darth Maul, Dooku, and Anakin/Darth Vader. 2 of them (Palpatine and Darth Maul) were never Jedi and hid their Force ability while secretly training in the ways of the Sith. The other 2 (Dooku and Anakin) were Jedi but turned to the ways of the Sith. Is it a coincidence that the 2 who were previously Jedi happened to be calm much of the time, but the 2 who were never Jedi were little more than animals once in a fight?

 

In the end, it might be as simple as the fact that Christopher Lee is too distinguished to run around with a scowl on his face all the time. He looks quite regal standing there, dismissing his inferiors with a withering stare.

[Rockstar]

First, i don't see how there is possibly a 'grey jedi'. Somebody falls off a building, you save them or you don't. You are as powerful as your master, you follow them out of respect or overthrow them because you are more powerful...

 

Choices... think logically and see that choices will lead you to a jedi that is MORE light or MORE dark, but there is always a line that shows their ideals. You cannot sit close to the dark side and play with it without being sucked in. If there is a grey Jedi it is a step before falling to the dark side

 

 

I don't see how you can use lightning for non-destructive purposes either. I would say Force Grip is inherently Dark too, and that we should think of Mind Trick (or something similar) being used in ROTJ in place of Force Grip.

 

 

Vader uses protect to block blaster shots just as Luke grips the guards. He choses to get out of their way and not just stand their and kill them but just walk past them. A jedi would not use lightning ever because it is a slow and painful way to defeat your enemy. A Sith would not focus on meditative techniques because they prefer to feed their anger. They can use each other's powers but do not because they conflict with believes and fighting styles

[PoiuyWired]

Well, its all about when and how you use them. Things like force rage is probably quite limited in terms of LS/DS, but most are not. There is a light side version of force lightning and it has been used. As for meditation, yes sith meditate too. Remember, even for force lightning you don't have to use it against a living object... it would work just as well to short circuit a huge digital system. And don't tell me how computers feel pain and such, cause even for Jedis droids are droids in most cases, and computer panels are probably not equipped with pain receptors.

[Corinthian]

Yeah, there are several times when apparently Dark Side powers could be used for Light Side purposes. For example, one could use Force lightning on someone who is in ventricular fibrillation. It would hurt for them later, but I'm sure they'd prefer that to being dead.

[Ecthelion]

Vader uses protect to block blaster shots just as Luke grips the guards. He choses to get out of their way and not just stand their and kill them but just walk past them.

What are you talking about here? When did that happen?

 

Well, its all about when and how you use them. Things like force rage is probably quite limited in terms of LS/DS, but most are not. There is a light side version of force lightning and it has been used.

Are people even reading the posts in this thread, or just the original post? We all know and acknowledge that Force Lightning has been used by Light side Jedi in the EU. However, several of us (including myself) feel that this contradicts the films and choose to chalk it up to yet another inconsistency of the EU. Basically, what this boils down to is whether you accept the EU as a valid source or not. If you choose to accept the EU, you are forced to believe Lightning can be used by LS Jedi. If you only consider the films to be canon, however, you are likely going to conclude that Lightning is an "evil" power (as George Lucas intended) and cannot be used by LS Jedi without leading them to the Dark Side.

 

As for your example, how is Force Rage more "Dark" than Lightning? Both of them are fed by strong emotions such as rage.

[Rockstar]

In reply to above.

 

Vader uses the force to stop han solo's blaster shots in Ep5 and in Ep6 Luke chokes the guards to get past them.

 

I believe all jedi can use all powers in theory, its just they chose not to because there is no purpose of a LS using lightning when they can push without the torture, while a sith would chose to torture an opponent.

 

The Jedi and Sith have different ideals that carry them through combat. This is why they are different.

[SilentScope001]

Remember, even for force lightning you don't have to use it against a living object... it would work just as well to short circuit a huge digital system. And don't tell me how computers feel pain and such, cause even for Jedis droids are droids in most cases, and computer panels are probably not equipped with pain receptors.

 

There is a Droid Tortue Chamber in ROTJ.

 

HK-47 tortues a HK-50 droid in the cut content, harming pain receptors.

 

The Droids' Rebellion was the first conflict in the Great Sith War, and it was done due to droids being oppressed by meatbags.

 

Basically, droids do feel pain. It's in the EU. It's canon. And if droids feel pain, then prehaps computers can too...

 

It does bring up Droid Lighting though in the K1 and K2 series, in which case it is used to short-circut droids and robots and destroy them. Etcholin's comments does lead me to question about Droid Lighting however...how come it's DS to harm human beings with Lighting, but purely LS to blow up droids? Can't droids feel pain?

[Corinthian]

I think the Light/Dark Side is a load of crap. The way I see it, the Force is not good or evil, it's just there. Now, you have the good force wielders, and the evil force wielders. So what's the Dark Side? Power is a corrupting force. You don't need supernatural abilities to let the lust for power bring you to commit atrocities.

[Ecthelion]

Vader uses the force to stop han solo's blaster shots in Ep5 and in Ep6 Luke chokes the guards to get past them.

Ah. I was thinking you were talking about a single event. I'm easy to confuse in my old age.

 

There is a Droid Tortue Chamber in ROTJ.

 

Basically, droids do feel pain. It's in the EU. It's canon. And if droids feel pain, then prehaps computers can too...

As you've said, droids are shown to feel pain in RotJ (and ESB when Chewie is putting C-3PO back together). We don't need the EU to back that up, as it's right there in the films.

 

It does bring up Droid Lighting though in the K1 and K2 series, in which case it is used to short-circut droids and robots and destroy them. Etcholin's comments does lead me to question about Droid Lighting however...how come it's DS to harm human beings with Lighting, but purely LS to blow up droids? Can't droids feel pain?

Interesting observation. The droid force powers in K1 and K2 should indeed be Dark Side powers. It's just a game mechanic that we have to ignore, like good Jedi being able to use Lightning with no effect on their Light/Dark standing.

 

I think the Light/Dark Side is a load of crap. The way I see it, the Force is not good or evil, it's just there. Now, you have the good force wielders, and the evil force wielders.

Well that's the core of the issue. If you take the EU into account, Force users can be neutral, and things aren't as black and white as the movies lead us to believe. However, if you view the EU as George Lucas does, and consider the movies by themselves, you get a very clear view of good vs. evil. That was Lucas' intention in telling the story of Star Wars. There is no room in his movies for neutral characters. Everyone eventually falls into the "good" or "evil" camp. Look at Han and Lando. They are the most neutral characters in the movies, yet they become the "good guys" by the time of RotJ. No one can stand on the sidelines. That's what Lucas was trying to show us - there is an epic conflict between good and evil, and anyone affected by it (which is almost everyone) has to choose a side before the final battle. Of course, he also left room in the story for redemption: namely, the last-minute change-of-heart for Anakin Skywalker. So the moral is, you can't stay neutral, but at the same time it's never too late to change sides.

 

So what's the Dark Side? Power is a corrupting force. You don't need supernatural abilities to let the lust for power bring you to commit atrocities.

Indeed. It's not necessary to be a Jedi or Sith to be evil or good. However, Yoda said that the Force surrounds every living thing. Admiral Piett, for example, serves the Dark Side because he aids the Sith. It doesn't matter that he's not a Force user. He has still given in to the Dark Side.

[Prime]

As others have stated, "Light side" lightning contradicts the movies also. We never see Light side Jedi use powers like lightning. The only people we've seen use it are Dooku and Palpatine - two Sith.

Plus, we are told explicitly that only the Sith use lightning.

 

No, it doesn't sound like a normal conversation. Still, stormtroopers would respect the chain of command, and wouldn't question him in front of a civilian. If they questioned him later, it wouldn't really matter for Obi-Wan's purposes because he would be elsewhere by then.

Possibly, but then after the fact they would have all the more reason to hunt him down, even though they had a head start. But if he tricks the group, they can go on their merry way without fear of that happening.

 

There's another possibility also. Let's assume Obi-Wan was able to trick all of the stormtroopers present. Perhaps Luke wasn't that skilled at tricking minds. After all, the first time we saw him use it was on Bib Fortuna. Comparing this to Jedi Outcast, we could say Obi-Wan had Mind Trick level 3, while Luke had Mind Trick level 1.

Maybe, but given the power that Luke shows in ROTJ, I don't think being able to trick two gamorreans with the kind of minds they have is any sort of stretch.

 

In any event, we can come up with reasons for both ways, but we seem to be getting nowhere. So if you agree let's move on.

 

After all, Palpatine said that Anakin should embrace a "larger view of the Force" - suggesting that he should make use of both Light side and Dark side teachings.

The Sith clearly do use both "sides" but that doesn't change how the dark side is used.

 

Consider this. We've seen 4 Sith in the movies: Palpatine, Darth Maul, Dooku, and Anakin/Darth Vader. 2 of them (Palpatine and Darth Maul) were never Jedi and hid their Force ability while secretly training in the ways of the Sith. The other 2 (Dooku and Anakin) were Jedi but turned to the ways of the Sith. Is it a coincidence that the 2 who were previously Jedi happened to be calm much of the time, but the 2 who were never Jedi were little more than animals once in a fight?

Could be. But we know that Dooku is using anger and hate when uses lightning against yoda, yet at times looks calm. So why can't Luke use anger with grip against the guards and still look calm? After all, he was trained as a Jedi too.

 

Well, its all about when and how you use them.

But the point I've been trying to make is that it isn't about "how you use them!" The act of using it is what is evil in the SW universe. We've been told this. We've been told that using the dark side is evil and only the Sith do such things.

 

There is a light side version of force lightning and it has been used.

EU states that what ever that is it isn't force lightning, which is canonically a dark side power. Personally, I think that whole thing is silly, but even if you accept it it still doesn't make lightning anything but evil.

 

Remember, even for force lightning you don't have to use it against a living object...

Doesn't make any difference, which again is the point I've been trying to make. It is the act of creating the lightning that is evil and is using the dark side, and how it is used has no bearing in that regard.

 

Yeah, there are several times when apparently Dark Side powers could be used for Light Side purposes. For example, one could use Force lightning on someone who is in ventricular fibrillation. It would hurt for them later, but I'm sure they'd prefer that to being dead.

For one, it wouldn't work, since force lightning damages tissue, and second it is not electricity. Anyway, merely using it would be dark side act.

 

Are people even reading the posts in this thread, or just the original post?

I've been wondering that myself.

 

I believe all jedi can use all powers in theory, its just they chose not to because there is no purpose of a LS using lightning when they can push without the torture, while a sith would chose to torture an opponent.

A Jedi does not use dark side powers because of what the dark side is.

[Ecthelion]

Maybe, but given the power that Luke shows in ROTJ, I don't think being able to trick two gamorreans with the kind of minds they have is any sort of stretch.

It's possible. We'll never know for sure. In any event, I was just trying to think of a reason Luke wouldn't simply trick the minds of the Gamorrean guards. I still maintain that Luke wasn't giving in to the Dark Side by choking the Gamorreans, because very little of the evidence points to that. Of course, I normally believe that Dark Side powers like Grip are inherently evil, so that poses a problem. Perhaps his technique varied from Vader's, and he didn't do any serious damage with it? I realize I'm arguing against myself again, because I think the concept of "good" Lightning is silly. I just don't think that Luke was giving in to the Dark Side here. I still think that if RotJ had been made nowadays, Luke would have used Force Push (perhaps trapping the guards so they couldn't warn Jabba).

 

In any event, we can come up with reasons for both ways, but we seem to be getting nowhere. So if you agree let's move on.

That's true. In the end, my primary source is just my belief that Luke couldn't give in to the Dark Side, because he's the "good guy" (and because it would make Dark Empire more believable, which is unacceptable to me). Let's move on.

 

The Sith clearly do use both "sides" but that doesn't change how the dark side is used.

Agreed. I never claimed otherwise. I was trying to say that Dooku and Anakin couldn't simply "undo" their Jedi training. Once they had become Sith, they might still show calmness in battle. Of course they would still draw their power from anger and hate, but their "default reaction" to something might still be to remain calm. Darth Maul and Palpatine didn't have the benefit of Jedi training, so they would have never learned the lesson that remaining calm helps center oneself. It seems logical that they wouldn't be able to show calmness (even if it's just an outward appearance) in battle.

 

Could be. But we know that Dooku is using anger and hate when uses lightning against yoda, yet at times looks calm. So why can't Luke use anger with grip against the guards and still look calm? After all, he was trained as a Jedi too.

Luke's training was very short and basic though. Dooku was presumably a Jedi for years. Luke also had difficulty training, and never showed the ability to remain calm during a crisis.

 

As a side note, it's interesting that Luke, without the benefit of years of training, was able to resist the Dark Side, while his father couldn't, even though he was surrounded by good influences (and one bad influence).

 

Doesn't make any difference, which again is the point I've been trying to make. It is the act of creating the lightning that is evil and is using the dark side, and how it is used has no bearing in that regard.

Agreed.

[Corinthian]

For the record, there is no "Force Push" "Force Pull" or "Force Grip." It's just telekinesis.

[True_Avery]

I think it should just be accepted that Star Wars is your basic fantasy universe of Good Vs. Evil. I justify my fic version of the Force as relative because it is a universe I have created that is similar to Star Wars, but holds many real life elements and thus is no longer Star Wars. EU has many very questionable things that are placed there by authors incorporating real life elements into Star Wars, thus they ruin the Good and Evil story the films tried to create.

 

And if you look into it, even if you believe the EU 100% Emerald Lightning and Force Lighting are two different things altogether. Emerald causes pain but does not harm flesh, Force Lightning is a projection of hate and pain that causes pain and mutilates the body. Calling the two the same is silly. True, it can be argued that Force Lightning could be used to help someone, but as Prime has stated: Force Lightning is not actual electricity and even if it is it is still created by the cruelty and hatred of the darkside.

 

I agree with a lot of what you are all saying. I'm personally using Force Lightning in my fic to save someone by restarting their heart, but as I will say again I have created my own Star Wars universe to play around in. Prime so far is one of the few that has held completely true to the films and what message and story they put across. Star Wars is a fantasy universe of Good Vs. Evil and only the EU has room to argue and the best example of EU not agreeing with that would have to be the two Kotor games.

 

If I wasn't so tired right now I would make a better example than the one i am about to use...

 

I don't know if any of you know about this old anime, but it is called Sailor Moon. Sailor Moon uses love and heart to banish the evil demons sent to take souls from earth using cruelty and evil. So, lets apply relativety to this. Sailor Moon can now control powers of the underworld because it is still magic and she is using it for the "right reason."

It makes no sense to have someone as kind and loving as Sailor Moon control the evil demons and powers of the underworld to destroy the forces of evil. The story states she uses love and kindness of heart to power her magic, so what right do editors and such really have to give her the powers of the underworld.

 

That was a terrible example, but I think you get my point

[Ecthelion]

For the record, there is no "Force Push" "Force Pull" or "Force Grip." It's just telekinesis.

Where did you get that information? If that's the case, Obi-Wan was using the same power when he pushed droids as Vader was when he strangled Ozzel; we know that's not true. It's true that all of those powers manipulate things telekinetically, but that doesn't make them all the same power.

 

I think it should just be accepted that Star Wars is your basic fantasy universe of Good Vs. Evil. I justify my fic version of the Force as relative because it is a universe I have created that is similar to Star Wars, but holds many real life elements and thus is no longer Star Wars. EU has many very questionable things that are placed there by authors incorporating real life elements into Star Wars, thus they ruin the Good and Evil story the films tried to create.

Good point. The EU, like your stories, is no longer Star Wars because of its wider view of the Force. I am in favor of separating the EU and the movies whenever possible.

[PoiuyWired]

Well, but kotor IS EU. And for the record, saving people with DS lightning style is done in EU for more than once. It is considered to be a DS action cause it Forcably BEND the force to one's own will against its natural flow. Anakin did it way back in the Clone Wars,and His great great great... great grand son succeed it pulling it out twice, once on some horny guy the other on some princess brat.

[Prime]

But IIRC the other Jon Ostrander mentioned that that was not sith lightning, but some other power...

[PoiuyWired]

Then I will have to reread it ... if I can find the books. But yes Cade is not a good example cause of all the anger inside him. As for Anakin's case, I need to find it and double check.

 

But basically I think this comes down to if you invoke a force power flowing WITH the white current of the force flow itself, of you forceably bend it against its flow by sheer brute domination. Grated, many of the force powers are quite neutral in that it requires only a smell detour for the force even when it comes to a DS wielder, while some techniques have an obvious twist and domination of the force flow. Things like Force Rage is almost definitely DS, but the rest is somewhat grey.

 

I mean if ther is DS technique to heal and revive and LS techniques to cause destruction, then the line is pretty blurr indeed.

[Prime]

Then I will have to reread it ... if I can find the books. But yes Cade is not a good example cause of all the anger inside him. As for Anakin's case, I need to find it and double check.

If you do, note that after he uses it (at least the second time) he has "Sith eyes" like Anakin did. So that implies that what he did, even if for good intentions, was of the dark side.

[CK51]

That's true. In the end, my primary source is just my belief that Luke couldn't give in to the Dark Side, because he's the "good guy" (and because it would make Dark Empire more believable, which is unacceptable to me). Let's move on.

 

Why do you find Dark Empire unacceptable? I personally thought it was a great sotry,and remember, it was written before any of the chilidsh "chosen one" crap was made up. I personally think Luke is more Jedi than Anakin will ever be, even though hes only the "catalyst" that allowed Anakin to complete the prophecy.

 

Also, I think Dark Empire was a great story, GL himself said it was the closest thing to a sequel trilogy there is. What do you have against it?

[Corinthian]

Dark Empire is ludicrous, but not because of Luke falling to the Dark Side. The Force Storms, for example, are the most ridiculous plot hole I've ever seen - I.E., why didn't he use them to destroy the Rebel Fleet amassing at Sullust before the Battle of Endor?

[CK51]

Dark Empire is ludicrous, but not because of Luke falling to the Dark Side. The Force Storms, for example, are the most ridiculous plot hole I've ever seen - I.E., why didn't he use them to destroy the Rebel Fleet amassing at Sullust before the Battle of Endor?

 

Because if he had destroyed the fleet at Sullust, he wouldnt have got the chance to seduce Luke as his apprentice, because Luke was more powerful potentially than Vader, so he wanted Luke to continue the Sith legacy.