Serpentine Cougar Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 In playing KotoR 1, I recently met the Genoharadan guy who tries to recruit you, and I was wondering if the Genoharadan quests are for Light side or Dark side characters? Or can they be completed in multiple ways to allow for both? I'm playing a Light side character and this group seems kinda fishy, so I'd like to know whether I should try to do their quests or not. This is still my first time playing through Kotor, so please use keep spoilers to a minimum and/or use the spoiler tags.
Emperor Devon Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 DS only. The missions for the most part involve a fair bit of killing unarmed/wounded/defenseless people in the name of a greater good - not the sort of thing a good Jedi would go about doing. It's a pretty bad thing to miss out on, you can get rewarded some extremely useful items in those quests (such gloves that give +4 to strength) and there's a surprising twist at the end of them.
Lance Monance Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 Unless you want to avoid getting DS points at all, do the quests. Basically you're a contract killer in those quests... but it is worth it.
SilentScope001 Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 Quote DS only. The missions for the most part involve a fair bit of killing unarmed/wounded/defenseless people in the name of a greater good - not the sort of thing a good Jedi would go about doing. Note that while the quest is in fact DS, I don't think ANY of the people you are killing are unarmed/wounded/defenseless. You are dealing with terrorists, slavers, dirty political manlipuators, and even more stranger psychos and criminals. All of the people you kill are in fact very, very guilty. The Genohardan are evil, but so are the targets they want you to murder off. (I suggest you save, complete the quests, and then afterwards reload from the previous save so that you can do the quests, find out the awesome twist at the end, and then reload so that you still keep your LS status. Not that it's hard to gain LS points, just that it seems like an easy way to avoid the grind.)
DarthVandar205 Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 Reveal hidden contents Basically these Genohadaran supposedly protect the Republi and cclaim theyre what keep the Republic going and one of the guild members hires you on Manaan to kill his other fellow guild members so HE can run the guild. Of course you dont know this at the time until youve killed all of them on Dantooine, Tatooine, Kashyyk and Manaan (Dantooine bounty is optional). Then he challenges you to a fight and you can either accept or refuse. He has you fight him on Tatooine and brings some of his friends so its best not to come by yourself like he suggests. You get dark side points for doing the Genohadaran side quest. Its worth it though because you get some special items plus alot of money.
Jediphile Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 I always complete the Genoharadan quests even when I play LS. They are not restricted to either side, but they do all give DS points, since they are tied to political assassinations and the like and all fall in the "doing a little evil for the greater good" category. I like them for being ambiguous, since I have no doubt lots of people will argue they shouldn't be darksided (and no, that's not a spoiler - it's not specific, nor does it give anything away), given that they serve the interests of the Republic. However, these missions underscore that cold-blooded murder is evil no matter how you look at it, which is a good point to make. We all know what the road to Hell is paved with, and these missions serve to remind us of it. It's one area where KotOR has a slight advantage over TSL, though I suppose TSL is generally so grey that the point would have been lost in the plot. I make a point of finishing these missions as LS as a sort of challenge - can I do some evil for the greater good and still achieve redemption while avoiding the lure of the dark side? I like that the answer appears to be yes...
Serpentine Cougar Posted October 18, 2007 Author Posted October 18, 2007 Thanks guys! It makes for a good story to have a Jedi who falls into the doing this kind of thing but still manages to get redemption. It also seems like something the player character might do, because he became a Jedi as an adult, not as a child like most. (So his discernment or resolve to do good might not be as strong as it could be.) All their talk of "the greater good" makes it harder to discern their true nature. After all, isn't "the greater good" what Jedi live and fight for? That being said, I don't think I'm going to do these quests. I'm planning on playing Kotor again later to see the dark side of the game, so I'll just do them then.
Emperor Devon Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 SilentScope001 said: Note that while the quest is in fact DS, I don't think ANY of the people you are killing are unarmed/wounded/defenseless. Reveal hidden contents Well, there's Lorgo, he's unarmed and trapped inside a force cage at your mercy... Not exactly in much of a position to defend himself. Zuulan is knocked down to 1 HP and nearly dead while Rulan is hiding as tach and you have the option to still kill them both. Ithorak was unarmed, even with the security droid and disloyal security officer there.
SilentScope001 Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 Reveal hidden contents Lurgo was a terrorist who threw grenades to try and overthrow the Republic. He killed a lot of civilians and took joy in that. He would just use the trial system to spread anti-GenoHardan and anti-Republic properganda...to inspire even more terrorists to take up his message. And Zuulan was a slaver, and even a kidnapper, he tried to kidnap the senator's daughter! Rulan killed Wookies for fun and pratice. And Ithorak was a con artist and blackmailer who had taken millions of credits from affluent families. Don't forget, Rulan and Ithorak are leaders of the Genoharadan, and they have some blood on their hands, running the secret society and murdering people as well. All those people are criminals, pure and simple, and to be quite fair, why are you worried about the 'fair battle' part? The Jedi would want you to kill off Sith troopers without blinking, heh, aside from Lurgo, the Jedi would likely order you to murder off the other Overseerers, or at least try to 'convert' them onto the right path.
Jediphile Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 SilentScope001 said: Reveal hidden contents Lurgo was a terrorist who threw grenades to try and overthrow the Republic. He killed a lot of civilians and took joy in that. He would just use the trial system to spread anti-GenoHardan and anti-Republic properganda...to inspire even more terrorists to take up his message. Reveal hidden contents Yes, but the obvious question is whether you should drop to his level by employing the same means. If why have a problem with what he is doing, then are we really any better if we do just the same in return? And if we say no and so refuse to hold the Republic to higher standard, then aren't we just proving Lurgo's point for him? SilentScope001 said: Reveal hidden contents And Zuulan was a slaver, and even a kidnapper, he tried to kidnap the senator's daughter! Rulan killed Wookies for fun and pratice. And Ithorak was a con artist and blackmailer who had taken millions of credits from affluent families. Don't forget, Rulan and Ithorak are leaders of the Genoharadan, and they have some blood on their hands, running the secret society and murdering people as well. All those people are criminals, pure and simple, and to be quite fair, why are you worried about the 'fair battle' part? The Jedi would want you to kill off Sith troopers without blinking, heh, aside from Lurgo, the Jedi would likely order you to murder off the other Overseerers, or at least try to 'convert' them onto the right path. Reveal hidden contents Because there is a noted difference between cold-blooded murder - which is what you end up doing in many of these missions - and killing an murderer during a fight. You could argue, of course, that several of these people are not only evil but also get a fair chance to defend their lives. Granted, but it doesn't change the fact that Revan seeks them out for the explicit purpose of killing them, which legally would be called murder in the first degree. There is a big difference between that and soldiers killing the enemies in a war or the police killing drugdealers during a shootout, either of which would be analogous to how most jedi would kill an enemy during combat
SilentScope001 Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 Quote Reveal hidden contents Yes, but the obvious question is whether you should drop to his level by employing the same means. Reveal hidden contents I think you are seeing the trees and not the big picture. Besides, bounty hunting is not bad, after all. You are killing someone for the money, and people do it in Star Wars a lot, and they usually are seen as netrual. Han Solo and Bobba Fett, for instance. Lurgo harmed innocent civilians. The GenoHaradan harms only the guilty. Lurgo is crude. The GenoHaradan are precise. Think of it as the intelligence agency of a country, who may kill in cold blood, but are surely not evil (unless they are killing good people). The reason the GenoHaradan are evil is not that they are defending the Republic by killing off the scum, or this whole "direct murder" business...but because they want to gain POWER. They want to take over the galaxy, and they are doing so by aiding the Republic. They want the Republic because the Republic allows for instablity, allows for the enemy to be divided amongst each other. The GenoHaradan was orignally the secret police that defended Xim the Depost, for instance. That by itself should indicate that they aren't some heroic defenders of justice or that they are killing evil people because they want to. In fact, they are nothing more than power-hungry bastards. Revan knew that the GenoHaradan are power-hungry. By aiding the GenoHaradan, it was obivous Revan did his crimes for the greed. Any good that comes from the GenoHardan's assistance is merely incidental, but the GenoHaradan did do good.
Ctrl Alt Del Posted October 20, 2007 Posted October 20, 2007 SilentScope001 said: Reveal hidden contents I think you are seeing the trees and not the big picture. Besides, bounty hunting is not bad, after all. You are killing someone for the money, and people do it in Star Wars a lot, and they usually are seen as netrual. Han Solo and Bobba Fett, for instance. Reveal hidden contents Eh? Solo never did bounty hunting. Fett, on the other hand did a lot. But is he with the good guys? For our logic, bounty hunting seems so unacceptable, but you're right when you say about Star Wars people believing on it: For example, Carth, Republic model soldier, thought that was all right to do some hunting, if restricted to governmental ones and was just to get some money. SilentScope001 said: Reveal hidden contents Lurgo harmed innocent civilians. The GenoHaradan harms only the guilty. Lurgo is crude. The GenoHaradan are precise. Think of it as the intelligence agency of a country, who may kill in cold blood, but are surely not evil (unless they are killing good people). Reveal hidden contents Is that so? Hulas makes fool of you after you kill all the other Overlords for him, and if you challenge him to a combat and he agrees for a personal combat, he shows up with a small army of bodyguards. As Jediphile said, they seems to be dropping to the bad guys level indeed. SilentScope001 said: Reveal hidden contents Revan knew that the GenoHaradan are power-hungry. By aiding the GenoHaradan, it was obivous Revan did his crimes for the greed. Any good that comes from the GenoHardan's assistance is merely incidental, but the GenoHaradan did do good. Reveal hidden contents Revan was in the organization, so his actions benefited GH and he knew that as he carried out his tasks out of greed.
Totenkopf Posted October 20, 2007 Posted October 20, 2007 I'd say that at best the Genoharden are ambivalent opportunists. The degree to which they want power is somewhat mitigated by the fact that they wish to preserve the republic (so claimed), thus reducing them to an elusive big fish in a big ocean. It would appear that self aggrandizement is a bigger goal for them than "running the universe". They seem to be interested more in the choicer scraps that fall off the table.
Ctrl Alt Del Posted October 20, 2007 Posted October 20, 2007 Totenkopf said: I'd say that at best the Genoharden are ambivalent opportunists. Well, no argument there. Hulas clearly states that the only thing that makes the Genoharadan support the Republic is because it's a system that let them work far better than that of the Sith Empire.
Rev7 Posted October 20, 2007 Posted October 20, 2007 With that said, a question arises. Where were they in TSL? I know that the Genoharadan was some cut content, but where were they at the verge of collapse of the Republic?
SilentScope001 Posted October 21, 2007 Posted October 21, 2007 Quote Reveal hidden contents Is that so? Hulas makes fool of you after you kill all the other Overlords for him, and if you challenge him to a combat and he agrees for a personal combat, he shows up with a small army of bodyguards. As Jediphile said, they seems to be dropping to the bad guys level indeed. Reveal hidden contents Just because Hulas led you to kill off all the other Overlords does not mean the Overlords are innocent people. I take it that Hulas was right when he talked about the evils of the 'targets', but he didn't tell you WHY he wanted them dead (of course, to take over). And lynching me was actually a pretty good idea, keeping in line with precison (never risking anything, coming in with full force, jumping the enemies, always winning). Altough, to be fair, what Hulas should have done was agree to such a match and RUN far far away from the actual planet, so that he wouldn't get killed. I think maybe Hulas was a moron. Quote I'd say that at best the Genoharden are ambivalent opportunists. The degree to which they want power is somewhat mitigated by the fact that they wish to preserve the republic (so claimed), thus reducing them to an elusive big fish in a big ocean. It would appear that self aggrandizement is a bigger goal for them than "running the universe". They seem to be interested more in the choicer scraps that fall off the table. Reveal hidden contents Valid point, and I have to agree with you. However, I also am of the theory that the GH are supposed to be stand-ins for massive mega-conspiracies like the Illumanti. I'm really torn...are they really powerful or are they engaging in self-delusions? Maybe both? Quote With that said, a question arises. Where were they in TSL? I know that the Genoharadan was some cut content, but where were they at the verge of collapse of the Republic? Take a look at this thread, and read it all (TSLRP spoilers): http://forums.team-gizka.org/viewtopic.php?t=2539
Ctrl Alt Del Posted October 21, 2007 Posted October 21, 2007 SilentScope001 said: Reveal hidden contents Just because Hulas led you to kill off all the other Overlords does not mean the Overlords are innocent people. I take it that Hulas was right when he talked about the evils of the 'targets', but he didn't tell you WHY he wanted them dead (of course, to take over). Reveal hidden contents Then, he leads the organization if you choose to leave him be, and isn't a group what their members make them?
teodesetkata Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 Genoharadan I want to ask you something, I don't want to start a new thread because there already is one. Can you, when you find that this Hulas is a baddie, report him to someone to gain LS Points? Or the quest is just left in your journal?
Ctrl Alt Del Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 teodesetkata said: Genoharadan I want to ask you something, I don't want to start a new thread because there already is one. Can you, when you find that this Hulas is a baddie, report him to someone to gain LS Points? Or the quest is just left in your journal? Reveal hidden contents Well, you don't have the option of reporting but you may choose to fight him and he'll give your chance for revenge, but not on the pacific Manaan, instead, on the wild desert dunes of Tatooine. Ah, keep on mind that he'll tell you to come alone, but he won't... Anyway, from that quest there's only a dark or gray way out.
Jediphile Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 SilentScope001 said: Reveal hidden contents I think you are seeing the trees and not the big picture. Besides, bounty hunting is not bad, after all. You are killing someone for the money, and people do it in Star Wars a lot, and they usually are seen as netrual. Han Solo and Bobba Fett, for instance. Reveal hidden contents I not only see the both the trees, the forest and the big picture, as well as the apples and oranges. What Boba Fett does is bounty hunting. Han Solo is/was a smuggler. Neither is what Revan does for Hulas. Instead Revan agrees to be a hitman taking a contract for the Genoharadan - unlike Boba Fett, he is not hired to bring criminals in, who are wanted by the authorities. Once he does, Boba gets paid, and it's no longer his problem. In fact, Boba probably doesn't get paid if he kills his targets. Revan, however, agrees murder people who are almost exclusively either not wanted by the authorities or even already in custody. Assassination and bounty-hunting are not the same thing. SilentScope001 said: Reveal hidden contents Lurgo harmed innocent civilians. The GenoHaradan harms only the guilty. Lurgo is crude. The GenoHaradan are precise. Think of it as the intelligence agency of a country, who may kill in cold blood, but are surely not evil (unless they are killing good people). Reveal hidden contents They are all horrible scum, the lot of them. No argument there. But that doesn't mean that murdering them is a good deed. Murder is never a benevolent act. I can accept its uses at times, because things are never black and white in the real world, nor are real people good or evil all the time, but that does not make murder into a benevolent act. And note that I say murder, not killing. Soldiers kill in wars, but do not murder. Killing an assailant in defense of the life or lives of yourself or others is also not murder. But willfully seeking others out for the explicit purpose of killing them is murder, and it is what Revan does in this case. Dooku was a bad guy, but Palpatine did not convince Anakin to kill him because Palpatine is benevolent. Saruman was a horrible person, but killing him did make Wormtongue into a hero fighting for the good cause. SilentScope001 said: Reveal hidden contents The reason the GenoHaradan are evil is not that they are defending the Republic by killing off the scum, or this whole "direct murder" business...but because they want to gain POWER. They want to take over the galaxy, and they are doing so by aiding the Republic. They want the Republic because the Republic allows for instablity, allows for the enemy to be divided amongst each other. The GenoHaradan was orignally the secret police that defended Xim the Depost, for instance. That by itself should indicate that they aren't some heroic defenders of justice or that they are killing evil people because they want to. In fact, they are nothing more than power-hungry bastards. Reveal hidden contents Have we been playing the same game? It's true that Hulas is a greedy git who wants power for himself, but I don't know where you're getting the rest from. It's true that the Genoharadan has a dark origin as a secret police for Xim the Despot, but you've left out some rather significant points about its formation, such as that this was five thousand years before the formation of the Republic, and that Hulas freely admits that the Genoharadan were nothing but brutal killers for a long time after that. The power was split among four guildmasters precisely to prevent corruption and to - according to Hulas - prevent any one person from manipulating the guild towards his/her own ends, which is, of course, exactly what Hulas is himself trying to do. Hulas is a terrible person because HE is a guildmaster/overseer himself and uses Revan to kill the others, so that he will hold all the power himself. I'd say that the fact that he needs Revan in order to do this actually speaks highly about the intents and goals of the Genoharadan, even if their methods are completely unacceptable, since it does suggest that the system workds, seeing as how even a leading overseer needs to outside expert help to corrupt it. SilentScope001 said: Reveal hidden contents Revan knew that the GenoHaradan are power-hungry. By aiding the GenoHaradan, it was obivous Revan did his crimes for the greed. Any good that comes from the GenoHardan's assistance is merely incidental, but the GenoHaradan did do good. Reveal hidden contents Revan knew?!? How so? I was Revan (in my game), and I certainly did not know. I might have suspecting, but that does not equal knowing, and actually I did not see exactly what Hulas was playing at until it was a moot point anyway.
hulas Posted November 21, 2007 Posted November 21, 2007 We are shadow, darkness and night. We are less than a whisper or a thought ―Hulas a quote from hulas himself, i think the Genoharadan where genuinely good and where acting for the best intrests of the republic but where prepared for the sith if they had overthrown the republic. And when an ultimate victor emerges from this war, I will know them better than they know themselves. This will give me power: the power to survive and thrive no matter what events may come ―Hulas
Gargoyle King Posted November 21, 2007 Posted November 21, 2007 Nothin' Personal, It's Just Business. Ah! The life of an assassin, a lonely one at best. Evil, not really but Immoral? A definate Yes.
Ctrl Alt Del Posted November 25, 2007 Posted November 25, 2007 hulas said: a quote from hulas himself, i think the Genoharadan where genuinely good and where acting for the best intrests of the republic but where prepared for the sith if they had overthrown the republic. "They are genuinely good and will act for the best interests of the Republic" as long as under Hulas rule. I've heard that before...
Rev7 Posted November 25, 2007 Posted November 25, 2007 I don't think that killing off 'scum' is the right thing to do. That would be like saying, that in the eyes of a criminal (possisbly) that the police are scum, so he would just kill as many as he could. There is a lot of 'scum' like people in the world today, but we don't just kill them. Yes, I know that this is just the 'star wars world' , but it is still no the right thing to do in my eyes.
Nancy Allen`` Posted December 2, 2007 Posted December 2, 2007 The targets are by no means good. That terrorist on Manaan? Bragging about killing children and how the trial will be a rallying call for mass slaughter? Yeah I'd sleep easier at night with the Genoraradan taking care of scum like that.
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