Countdown to Kosovo Indepedence Crisis

[SilentScope001]

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/02/15/kosovo.independence/

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps/idUSL1510878920080215

 

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2008/02/15/moscow_furious_over_kosovo/

 

It is widely expected for Kosovo to declare indepedence this weekend, and Serbia to respond by carving a portion of Kosovo to create a Serbian puppet state. When Kosovo declares indepedence, the EU will step in to defend the new state (turning Kosovo into a possible puppet state), even though half the EU will not recognize its indepedence.

 

I'm just getting a little afraid, you know. Not just that it's likely leading to another Balkan War, but because it will also help to lead to a Cold War between USA and Russia. It may, more terribly, lead to more seccessionist groups being formed, with Russia considering recognizing the indepedence of its puppet states as a possible reaction.

 

Altough I am supposed to be happy. Kosovo is a Muslim territory after all.

 

EDIT: Here's a list of other breakaway regions throughout the world that may be emboldened by the successful indepedence of Kosovo.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1448778220080214

[igyman]

As a Serb I wholeheartedly oppose this unilateral breakaway. I know ordinary people around the world don't really care that much and say "So, what? Let them break away", but imagine how you'd feel if someone was trying to steal territory that has been part of your state for centuries.

 

Edit: As far as I know there are as much Muslim Albanians as there are Christian, or Atheists.

[Web Rider]

All these states breaking off in Eurasia is just getting silly frankly. But it's oh-so typical of Europeans. They all want their own little corner, their own little space that's just for them. Look how long it took for something like the EU to form, and Europe's been living together as organized nations for practically a millennium, and they've been trying to kill each other and take their land for most of it and the time prior to that.

 

And the EU stepping in? with what? Are they going to put their diplomats on the front line?

 

I read an article a while ago somewhat slaming Americans and some Europeans about our forward outlook on time. The outlook present was that one was "walking backward" into the future, that is, always looking at the past. And you know what the problem with views like that are(this was in relevance to the whole Turkey-Armenia thing) that you are ALWAYS obsessed with the horrible things that happened in the past. You distance yourself from them over time, but in that view that's hundreds upon hundreds of years. You never move on. I'll take my view of pastly ignorance over focusing on the past any day.

 

This whole concept of that land being "mostly muslim" is stupid. LA is mostly Mexican, should we give it Mexico?

[Quanon]

All these states breaking off in Eurasia is just getting silly frankly. But it's oh-so typical of Europeans. They all want their own little corner, their own little space that's just for them. Look how long it took for something like the EU to form, and Europe's been living together as organized nations for practically a millennium, and they've been trying to kill each other and take their land for most of it and the time prior to that.

True, but I see this in a link to "less-safe" feeling around the world.

Many right-winged politicale party are growing in a great rate.

 

And many of these don't have progressive views, they focus hard on Patriot/Nationalistic feelings/ideas.

 

I can speak of it, because right now, my country, Belgium is in a political crisis.

And its all about if Belgium needs to split and so and so forth.

 

Which is IMO ridicules. Where like a spot and have no importances at all, where just lucky we're stuck in the middle and have a coast.

Cargo comes and goes...

 

And on the Europe slowly forming up, I think its best their going slow...

We don't want to end up with a second U.S.A...

 

Not that the USA is that bad, far from that. But you must say there's lots of things that can go better.

 

And the EU stepping in? with what? Are they going to put their diplomats on the front line?

 

So invasion is a better route ?

[Web Rider]

I can speak of it, because right now, my country, Belgium is in a political crisis.

And its all about if Belgium needs to split and so and so forth.

Have you guys formed a government yet?

 

And on the Europe slowly forming up, I think its best their going slow...

We don't want to end up with a second U.S.A...

 

Not that the USA is that bad, far from that. But you must say there's lots of things that can go better.

true, and if Belgium is any example, there's stuff you guys can improve on too. But the major difference is that the US formed a country from nothing, and Europe is trying to make a bunch of guys who've rarely gotten along live in the same house.

 

So invasion is a better route ?

You misunderstand, it was a joke. The OP said that the EU was going to send in forces to protect Kosovo when it declared it's independance. I was poking fun at the fact that the EU really doesn't have any forces to do that with.

[igyman]

This whole concept of that land being "mostly muslim" is stupid. LA is mostly Mexican, should we give it Mexico?

My point exactly. I mean, I think we're being more than fair with our proposal of maximum autonomy and we are eager to continue negotiations, but they obviously aren't and the oh-so-great EU is suddenly deciding to accept their view and force a solution that's bad for the entire region in the long run.

[mur'phon]

but imagine how you'd feel if someone was trying to steal territory that has been part of your state for centuries.

 

"Stolen" by having those living in said territory voting for it seems like a fair way of "stealing" to me.

 

This whole concept of that land being "mostly muslim" is stupid. LA is mostly Mexican, should we give it Mexico?

 

Kosovo: 92% Albanians, 5.3% serbs 2.7% others. It isn't so much about religion as it is about ethnisity. And they have voted to secede.

 

the EU really doesn't have any forces to do that with.

 

It has as many troops the members choose to send to do "that" with, and there are plenty of troops that could be used. Wether governments choose to send them is another matter.

 

Many right-winged politicale party are growing in a great rate. And many of these don't have progressive views, they focus hard on Patriot/Nationalistic feelings/ideas

 

Sad but true.

[igyman]

"Stolen" by having those living in said territory voting for it seems like a fair way of "stealing" to me.

Kosovo: 92% Albanians' date=' 5.3% serbs 2.7% others. It isn't so much about religion as it is about ethnisity. And they have voted to secede.[/quote']

Yes, stolen. Do you know why Albanians are now the vast majority in Kosovo? They can thank their KLA terrorists for that. The KLA made sure that only the most persistent Serbs remained (that small percentage you showed above) by terrorizing the Serbian populace and forcing them out of their homes, combined with the arrival of many Albanians from their home country, Albania, and you get the 92% Albanian populace that's there now. What you probably don't know is that there's a huge number of Serbian refugees from Kosovo who are now in central Serbia, most living with relatives in bad conditions.

As for the voting process, well, I'm just gonna say that you should know the so-called Kosovo government is completely illegal. Kosovo is not and has never been a separate state, it is simply a part of Serbian territory and as such cannot have a government of that level.

[mur'phon]

Yes, stolen. Do you know why Albanians are now the vast majority in Kosovo? They can thank their KLA terrorists for that. The KLA made sure that only the most persistent Serbs remained (that small percentage you showed above) by terrorizing the Serbian populace and forcing them out of their homes,

 

Both sides commited horrible acts before and during the war, placing the blame entierly on the KLA seems rather unfair.

 

What you probably don't know is that there's a huge number of Serbian refugees from Kosovo who are now in central Serbia, most living with relatives in bad conditions.

 

I know, any sugestions what to do with them that won't cause a lot of victims and rage?

 

As for the voting process, well, I'm just gonna say that you should know the so-called Kosovo government is completely illegal.

 

I consider any government of a region elected by the people of said region as legal. Is there any reason why the Kosovo government is ilegal except that Serbia says so?

[igyman]

Both sides commited horrible acts before and during the war' date=' placing the blame entierly on the KLA seems rather unfair.[/quote']

True, I guess, but the KLA is guilty for the current percentage of Serbian population in Kosovo.

 

I know' date=' any sugestions what to do with them that won't cause a lot of victims and rage?[/quote']

Well, for one they have every right to return to their homes in Kosovo, but they're too scared of the Albanians to do that. I guess, some sort of improvements should be done when it comes to the state helping them out. Our government is building apartment buildings for them in certain cities and, of course, giving them the apartments. Some of those buildings have already been completed and the apartments donated, so I guess that's a good start.

 

I consider any government of a region elected by the people of said region as legal. Is there any reason why the Kosovo government is ilegal except that Serbia says so?

Haven't I already adressed that in my previous post? Kosovo isn't and has never been a state, so it cannot have a legal state-level government.

[mur'phon]

True, I guess, but the KLA is guilty for the current percentage of Serbian population in Kosovo.

 

But would people be so anti-serbian in Kosovo if the army hadn't commited their share of horrible acts?

 

Well, for one they have every right to return to their homes in Kosovo, but they're too scared of the Albanians to do that. I guess, some sort of improvements should be done when it comes to the state helping them out. Our government is building apartment buildings for them in certain cities and, of course, giving them the apartments. Some of those buildings have already been completed and the apartments donated, so I guess that's a good start.

 

The situation has improved? Thanks for sharing. Another thing that could help those Serbs when Kosovo secedes is a constitution to prevent anti-serbian laws from being made. Both joining the EU would also benefit them.

 

Haven't I already adressed that in my previous post? Kosovo isn't and has never been a state, so it cannot have a legal state-level government.

 

My take is that if a large majoroty within a spesific area vote to secede, it's their right to do so. A country belongs to its people, not the other way round. And if the people of an area wish to take "their" part of the country and form a new one, I don't see a reason to prevent them

[Quanon]

Have you guys formed a government yet?

 

Not really, it's an ER goverment so to speak, to keep things running.

Costs where starting to run high, its really sad.

 

I find that this proves politicians seem to live on other plane of thought.

Most people just don't care and we all keep doing or stuff.

 

I think the guys in Brussels should be content we don't start doing things like in Kenia...

 

Though I still have a positive feeling, where know for the country of compromise. And there are few hot-heads around.

 

Like I said nobodys cares what those lads are doing in the capital.

 

true, and if Belgium is any example, there's stuff you guys can improve on too. But the major difference is that the US formed a country from nothing, and Europe is trying to make a bunch of guys who've rarely gotten along live in the same house.

 

 

True, again

 

And not that long ago these oldys didn't get along that well.

Its one big mess in the past.

 

Though I think the EU is mother of all the bigger problems.

If think it all over, we kinda dumbed all the religios nuts, wackos, whole boats of scum to the US and Australia...

 

Plus we had the great idea of putting straight lined borders on africa...

No wonder things go this well in the world.

 

 

You misunderstand, it was a joke.

 

Sorry for the overly sharp remark

 

BUt I must admit, I totally lack understanding how things work in the USA, so I'm often short sighted on these kind of things.

 

Seems like our "fantastic" education could use some extra atention on history of our fellow man across the atlantic.

 

The only things they only told us, is that the USA has like two modes :

 

Belly staring and just taking care of its own stuff and worrys.

 

The other, being 'overly' active in the world, poking his nose into everything.

 

 

Plus our media lacks good info, it has improved in the years. But I've learned more here in Kavars Corner ( thinking about the Elaction thread and others )

how you peeps think and what really going on.

[Arcesious]

This may be a good thing, but secession can lead to civil war. Just look at the United States' history...

[Web Rider]

Update: Kosovo declared it's independance.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/02/17/kosovo.independence/index.html

[igyman]

They declared it, but it's not over yet, not until the emergency session of the Security Council is over and until the EU and the UN acknowledge it, which I hope they won't do.

[Da_Man_2423]

I'm pretty sure the will acknowledge it, too.

[SilentScope001]

Not the UN. The EU, yes. But the UN has Russia, and Russia will veto anything having to do with Kosovo's indepedence. In fact, it was because of Russia that the Kosovo has to resort to this unilateral indepedence movement.

 

Oh who cares, in the best of cirmustances? Tawain has been indepedent for over 50 years and they still don't have recognition. Same thing here. Worst of cirmustances, we got a Second Balkan War.

[igyman]

I care. I live in Serbia and I don't want a war on our hands.

[Darth InSidious]

Actually, I retract my previous answer to Web Rider.

 

The very idea that you can at one and the same time attack Europe based on its history and then admit to being totally ignorant of the past.

 

Indeed, the very idea that you can comment on anything at all is laughable.

 

If you're going to come out with such...unwise opinions, WR, at least make sure they're consistent.

[Arcesious]

Mankind will always fight over territory.

[Web Rider]

Actually, I retract my previous answer to Web Rider.

 

The very idea that you can at one and the same time attack Europe based on its history and then admit to being totally ignorant of the past.

 

Indeed, the very idea that you can comment on anything at all is laughable.

 

If you're going to come out with such...unwise opinions, WR, at least make sure they're consistent.

 

I did "attack" Europe over it's history, but I never claimed, nor admitted(and I wouldn't since I'm not), to be ignorant of the past.

 

I've only made 3 comments on this topic, and this makes a 4th, one of them was my claim, the second was clarifying some information, the 3rd was an update to the topic, and then this one.

 

So I have no idea where you are reading what you think you're reading.

[Totenkopf]

@WR--I'd wager DI was at least referring to your statement that europe has been a bunch of carping nation states for 1000 years, if only b/c many of those "states" have only arisen in the last two centuries or so.

 

@Igy--understand your apprehension, but what if EU and UN acquiesce to a fait accompli?

[Web Rider]

@WR--I'd wager DI was at least referring to your statement that europe has been a bunch of carping nation states for 1000 years, if only b/c many of those "states" have only arisen in the last two centuries or so.

 

To imply that the nations are Europe have only existed for 200 years or LESS is a gross misstatement. While yes, their exact boundaries have varried over the last thousand years, the general domains of the Britons, Normans(French), Goths/Visagoths(Germans/Prussians/Austrio-Hungarians), Italians, Spanish and Muslims are pretty much the same as they've always been.

 

And since the time of Rome, somebody has always been fighting somebody else, be it the hundred years war between the Britons and Normans, the battles between the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodx, the Spanish and the Muslims, Christianity and Islam's conflicts in general, the assortment of Crusades that lasted over several hundred years.

 

Yeah, there's been duldrums for a couple hundred years or two. But the prime factions in Europe, Austrio-Hungary, Prussia, Rome, France/Normans, Spanish, Britons, Muslims have been at it for well over a thousand years. It's not so much the nations, as nations can't attack each other, only the people in them. And it's been one set of Europeans or another going at it over a LONG time.

 

And it is in more recent history yes that many of these little "autonomous regions" have been getting up and wanting to be nation-states no bigger than a small city.

[Totenkopf]

I'm guessing you missed the term "nation states". I agree with most of the essence of what you're talking about, but was guessing that DI had a problem with your liberal use of the notion of nations. Otherwise, we're probably not as far apart as you'd suspect on the notion that Europe has a long history of fractious relationships, both "within" and "without".

[Tommycat]

to the europeans: Actually we aren't as different as you might think. Each state within the US has its own laws, its own citizenship, even extradition between the states can be a hard battle(and in some cases even the language is different... I'm looking at you Louisiana). We are one nation, with many nations within.

 

Of course our expansion came from purchases, and taking of "savage" lands. We fought our way west as the USA. So we actually had a slightly smoother transition to being one nation covering our current land mass. Though we did have that nasty little disagreement a while back over some states that didn't want to be a part of the USA any more, we did come back as one.

 

Iggy: I understand what you're saying, and tend to agree with you. We have a large portion of people living in our country who came here illegally. There is even La Razza(sp?) that is trying to claim California for the Mexicans. We don't take them seriously at this point, but if it escalated to the level Serbia experienced(and is experiencing), I have a hard time believing that we in the US would be any happier about the situation than you are about yours.

 

Those in the US that think this is ok to do: Sooooo you think that the Confederates were right? No, not the slavery issue, the secession from the Union. You feel that they should have been allowed to break away from the United States? This is a very similar issue. It could lead to a smaller scale civil war, but just as devastating to that country.