Are the Jedi Masters good or evil? (spoilers ahoy)

[Astor]

Oh, they had no idea about Kreia.

 

Definately agreed. When Kreia presents herself before the council, Kavar (I think) says that they thought she died in the Mandalorian Wars, so the threat they saw couldn't possibly have been her.

 

It really had to be Nihilus - He wiped out Katarr after all. It couldn't have been Sion, as he was too - provincial maybe? in his ambitions as a Sith Lord.

[TKA-001]

Good in the sense of wanting to not cause evil, but blind to the fact their their own intransigent dawdling condemned the galaxy to further misery.They had become merely reactive rather than proactive and assiduously clung to their rigid understanding of their own code.

The reason they "dawdled" is because they knew that their real enemy wanted them to enter the war. There's no telling what would've happened if not for Revan and his band of hooligans running out there to the Mandalorians. The masters said that **** would hit the fan if they did that, and when they did that, what do you know? **** hit the fan. All the Jedi except [the] Exile died or turned dark. Revan and Malak started another war and upped the body count considerably.

 

Zez-Kai Ell, Vrook, and Kavar didn't act while they were in hiding because they were hiding. Like with the Mandalorians, they knew that their enemy, Darth Nihilus in this case, wanted them to group together and show themselves. They knew that the Exile would bring the Sith to Dantooine, which she did. Ultimately, their failure to take action against the Exile sooner than Dantooine led to their deaths.

 

The Council's flaws were by no means in being too strict. The fact is that they weren't strict enough. Hell, if not for Revan (and to a point, the Exile), Darth Nihilus would never have become a threat. If not for Revan, Malak would never have become a problem either. And of course, there would be no Sith Empire whatsoever. When the Exile returned for judgment, they should have cut her off from the force immediately. When Revan and his followers left to fight the war, the masters should have sent Jedi after them and brought them back, not just let them run around unsupervised. Needless to say, they also should have cut Revan and his immediate underlings from the force as well. And as stated before, if Revan hadn't mucked everything up, there's no telling what would have happened.

[Astor]

When Revan and his followers left to fight the war, the masters should have sent Jedi after them and brought them back, not just let them run around unsupervised. Needless to say, they also should have cut Revan and his immediate underlings from the force as well. And as stated before, if Revan hadn't mucked everything up, there's no telling what would have happened.

 

I can understand why the council didn't intervene when Revan left for the Mandalorian Wars - I think they were worried that any action on their part could cause problems, and maybe they felt that it wasn't their job to stop invidual Jedi from fighting - it was their decision that the Order would stay out of it.

 

That said, i've always wondered why the council didn't confront Revan when he returned - Although he was a renowned Jedi, and competent duelist, I have doubts that he could have fought off say Vrook and Kavar at the same time.

 

If they did that as soon as Revan reappeared, the war could have been a bit shorter. But then Malak would have taken over...

[Knight Of Honor]

Revan is the strongest. No way the Masters could put him on trial.

He was the one who started all this, who possesed the knowledge and power too shape the galaxy. His believes, motives and his purpose was unquestionable. He set out too do what he believed had to be done, and no one would be able to stop him.

 

I would say, perhapse that the jedi, concerning this matter is suffering from ingnorance, they cant see the big picture. Thats why they could not understand Revans actions.

 

But Kotor 3 will probably give us the whole story..

[Astor]

Revan may be the strongest, one on one, but I don't think that even he could face multiple members of the council and not be overwhelmed.

 

But, to paraphrase the ghost of a certain Jedi, "many things depend greatly on our point of view"

 

So really, this is just my interpretation, but I think it makes sense

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Revan may be the strongest, one on one, but I don't think that even he could face multiple members of the council and not be overwhelmed.

Well, Kreia took the whole remnant Council with but a hand gesture.

 

Of course, she used what seemed the Nihilus technique, but...

[JCarter426]

Of course, she used what seemed the Nihilus technique, but...

 

Nope, she couldn't do that. She did what they were going to do to the Exile--she cut them off from the Force. The pain of losing the Force was enough to kill them, because they relied on it so much. The ability to live without the Force was what made the Exile strong.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

She cut them from the Force? I don't recall she saying that.

 

Oh, perhaps the "See the galaxy through the eyes of the Exile" thingy was about that.

 

Anyway, she took care of them pretty easily and single-handily.

[JCarter426]

Yeah, that's exactly what that was.

[jonathan7]

Well, she did evil things in order to carry out a greater good. That's misguided in my book.

 

She didn't do that.

 

Yes, but she couldn't do that. So she did the second best thing by making the Exile stronger, as the Exile had managed to kill the Force within herself. That's what Malachor was (supposed to be) about (before it was cut).

 

She did do that, but then Kreia to me always was the Star Wars version of Nietzsche, indeed I think perhaps her general philosophy was influenced by Nietzschean philosophy. I also think she was trying to turn the Exile into an Übermensch.

 

At topic: In my opinion Vrook, Kavar and Zez were all cowards - should of tryed to hunt the Sith threat down; also the failure to act in the face of evil, is in itself evil (the world is a crap place because so few act to change it), so in the Mandalorian Wars they were wrong - would the problems with Revan have occured had Vrook et al been at the forefront of the war effort?

 

Oh sure. She plotted to excommunicate both Kreia and the Exile from the Jedi Order, trained herself a small army of non-Force sensitives, and decorated he bedroom with Sith Holocrons. She was just misunderstood.

 

Atris was evil, make no mistake... In many respects worse than the others as she deep down new she had fallen, but surrounded herself with those not force sensetive to disguise this fact.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

She did do that, but then Kreia to me always was the Star Wars version Nietzsche, indeed I think perhaps her general philosophy was influenced by Nietzschean philosophy. I also think she was trying to turn the Exile into an Übermensch.

Lol. Where does the concept of Nietzsche Super Human gets on making one free from the Force?

 

Atris was evil, make no mistake... In many respects worse than the others as she deep down new she had fallen, but surrounded herself with those not force sensetive to disguise this fact.

Dood, you noticed the e-sarcasm there, didn't you? I'm betting you did and I didn't get yours.

[jonathan7]

Lol. Where does the concept of Nietzsche Super Human gets on making one free from the Force?

 

Dood, you noticed the e-sarcasm there, didn't you? I'm betting you did and I didn't get yours.

 

Nah, no sarcasm from me. Kreia wins either way, yes her ambition was to destroy the force, but she must of at least suspected that the Exile could beat her. Otherwise why all the training in the way she trained? Why having been bested did she predict what would happen? Of course it depends on the interpretation of the ending.

[Astor]

Well, Kreia took the whole remnant Council with but a hand gesture.

 

I think, and this is just a theory, that the reason Kreia was so easily able to do this was because the council hadn't expected it to happen.

 

When Kreia presented herself, they were ready to fight her blade on blade. I don't think they could have expected such an action. Remember, Kreia was very good at concealing both her existence and her thoughts.

 

I think that when on is cut off from the Force it takes a while because the subject is expecting it - and it might also be that doing it slowly prevents any extra damage. But with the council, it was so sudden and so abrupt that not only was the Force removed from their bodies, but also their lives.

 

I think that mainly because Jedi don't kill prisoners - if removing the Force from someone caused such a reaction, they wouldn't really do it, would they?

 

So possibly, Kreia used a cruder, but quicker method.

 

In my opinion Vrook, Kavar and Zez were all cowards - should of tryed to hunt the Sith threat down; also the failure to act in the face of evil, is in itself evil (the world is a crap place because so few act to change it), so in the Mandalorian Wars they were wrong - would the problems with Revan have occured had Vrook et al been at the forefront of the war effort?

 

I don't think they were cowards. Most of them had probably fought in the war with Exar Kun 40 years before, and they didn't want another such war tearing apart the galaxy.

 

Plus, there was a hidden threat, one that was driving the Mandalorians away from the Unknown regions and the Outer Rim, further into the core. It is quite possible this threat was the True Sith, or something else, but we won't know that until (if) K3 comes out.

 

And don't quote me on this, but I seem to remember one character somewhere, saying that it was always Revan's destiny to go to war - so maybe the council let him go, in order to see what that destiny was. They didn't know that destiny would cause another war, however.

 

And they were hunting the Sith Threat -they needed the exile to draw the threat out, at which time they would meet and face the threat head on. But if Kreia could do that damage to them, they could not have hoped to fight Nihilus - I think that was why they waited for the exile.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

I think that when on is cut off from the Force it takes a while because the subject is expecting it - and it might also be that doing it slowly prevents any extra damage. But with the council, it was so sudden and so abrupt that not only was the Force removed from their bodies, but also their lives.

 

I think that mainly because Jedi don't kill prisoners - if removing the Force from someone caused such a reaction, they wouldn't really do it, would they?

But if it was that easy to do so, we wouldn't have masters bothering on one-on-one lightsaber fights. Instead, they would just cut each other from the Force and see who does it first.

[JCarter426]

But if it was that easy to do so, we wouldn't have masters bothering on one-on-one lightsaber fights. Instead, they would just cut each other from the Force and see who does it first.

 

Who said it was easy? Sure, Kreia could do it alone, but that probably has something to do with the fact that it had been done to her. Like the Exile, she had grown stronger by being forced to live without the Force.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

And then, we come back to this statement:

 

Well, Kreia took the whole remnant Council with but a hand gesture.

Where I actually said Kreia was strong enough to take on them.

[Astor]

And then, we come back to this statement:

 

 

Where I actually said Kreia was strong enough to take on them.

 

Which comes back to my statement that they weren't prepared for it - practically as soon as she showed up, she took the Force from them.

 

I really think that, given time and sufficient warning, the council could easily have dealt with Kreia - Sith Lord or not. I think the element of surprise really determined the outcome of this - as I said, they were all shocked she was there.

[TKA-001]

At topic: In my opinion Vrook, Kavar and Zez were all cowards - should of tryed to hunt the Sith threat down; also the failure to act in the face of evil, is in itself evil (the world is a crap place because so few act to change it), so in the Mandalorian Wars they were wrong - would the problems with Revan have occured had Vrook et al been at the forefront of the war effort?

I'm not sure what you mean by "they should have hunted the Sith down", since the Sith weren't around in the Mandalorian wars and they were already trying to do that in the Jedi Civil War. And no, whether the problems would've occurred if all the Jedi went can't be determined because not all the Jedi were that stupid.

 

Of course, she used what seemed the Nihilus technique, but...

Nope, she couldn't do that. She did what they were going to do to the Exile--she cut them off from the Force. The pain of losing the Force was enough to kill them, because they relied on it so much. The ability to live without the Force was what made the Exile strong.

Oh, perhaps the "See the galaxy through the eyes of the Exile" thingy was about that.

I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that Kreia uses Force Drain on them, rather than cutting them off from the force. My reasons are, of course, total speculation, but here they are anyway:

1)The power she uses looks exactly like Force Drain.

2)It sounds exactly like Force Drain.

3)It has the exact same effect as Force Drain.

4)It is never stated to be anything other than Force Drain.

5)It is never suggested to be anything other than Force Drain.

6)Nobody else has ever died from being cut from the force.

[Astor]

I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that Kreia uses Force Drain on them, rather than cutting them off from the force. My reasons are, of course, total speculation, but here they are anyway:

1)The power she uses looks exactly like Force Drain.

2)It sounds exactly like Force Drain.

3)It has the exact same effect as Force Drain.

4)It is never stated to be anything other than Force Drain.

5)It is never suggested to be anything other than Force Drain.

6)Nobody else has ever died from being cut from the force.

 

I don't think that the first three really have that much of a bearing on it - they're just visual effects, after all.

 

It was Force Drain - but think about it - draining the force from someone is only a step away from removing it completely.

[JCarter426]

Actually, it's explicitly stated in cut content that she's cutting them off from the Force. There's also this:

 

[This master is dead... drained of life. His body is worse than lifeless, it's like an absence in the Force.]

[Astor]

Thanks for the quote, Carter. I was trying to think of what it said.

 

Here's a quote regarding Force Drain

 

The technique itself could not be taught, it could only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects first-hand

.

 

So if i've read that right, it means that those cut off from the force could learn such a technique, to regain their connection to the Force.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Which comes back to my statement that they weren't prepared for it - practically as soon as she showed up, she took the Force from them.

 

I really think that, given time and sufficient warning, the council could easily have dealt with Kreia - Sith Lord or not. I think the element of surprise really determined the outcome of this - as I said, they were all shocked she was there.

How much time?

 

Because she managed to throw quite a speech and the Masters even manifested their thoughts on her before she cut them of definitely.

 

1)The power she uses looks exactly like Force Drain.

2)It sounds exactly like Force Drain.

3)It has the exact same effect as Force Drain.

4)It is never stated to be anything other than Force Drain.

5)It is never suggested to be anything other than Force Drain.

6)Nobody else has ever died from being cut from the force.

If you would go by looks, then it's about the same of Nihilus ability. Remember him sucking the Force out of Sion.

[TKA-001]

It was Force Drain - but think about it - draining the force from someone is only a step away from removing it completely.

Whether it's a "step away" is irrelevant.

 

Actually, it's explicitly stated in cut content that she's cutting them off from the Force.

I've heard that red herring defense used one too many times. The cut content is irrelevant. We're talking about what is, not what might have been.

 

[This master is dead... drained of life. His body is worse than lifeless, it's like an absence in the Force.]

There is no indication that that is not a standard effect of Force Drain.

 

If you would go by looks, then it's about the same of Nihilus ability. Remember him sucking Sion.

Again, whatever was cut does not have any bearing on the discussion. Either way, there is no indication that Nihilus' power is any different from the regular drain, except for the scale on which it is used and how much he relies on it. (Note: You really ought to have phrased that a little better.)

[JCarter426]

It only looks like Drain Life because they didn't have the inclination or the time to make a different special effect.

 

And forget about the cut content; it's said in the game more than once. For instance:

 

As you would pass judgment on her, I have come to pass judgment on you all.

 

They were going to cut the Exile off from the Force, so she does it to them.

 

See it through the eyes of the exile, as I have. Endure what she has endured, and perhaps there is the faintest hope that you will hear what he has heard.

 

Both the Exile and Kreia had lost connection to the Force, and so she does the same to them.

 

And as I posted earlier,

 

[This master is dead... drained of life. His body is worse than lifeless, it's like an absence in the Force.]

 

It wasn't the normal Drain Life. It was worse.

[TKA-001]

It only looks like Drain Life because they didn't have the inclination or the time to make a different special effect.

It doesn't matter why it looks the same.

 

As you would pass judgment on her, I have come to pass judgment on you all.

They were going to cut the Exile off from the Force, so she does it to them.

By "pass judgment" on them, she meant exactly that, not do what they were going to.

 

It wasn't the normal Drain Life. It was worse.

Again, there is no indication that that doesn't also happen to anyone else who is killed by drain.