The True Sith Great Debate

[rictus135]

There has been a lot of talk of the True Sith since TSL, but little in the way of actual evidence to support one theory or the other. This is a debate that started in another thread that I decided to begin properly here.

 

This is what youve missed so far, beginning whith my opinion:

 

It is a common misconception that the "True Sith" are actually a race. They are sith who have been trained by the Sith Masters that escaped Korriban and their apprentices, in an unbroken line since the Great Hyperspace war. Revan and Malak were not "True Sith" because they were not trained by Sith. All of the knowledge gained from holocrons etc. doesn't change the fact that they and all their subsequent followers were not trained by "True Sith".

 

Originally Posted by Wookiepedia Article about the True Sith

More recently, it was discovered that, after the Sith King Adas died while driving the Rakata from Korriban in 27,700 BBY, the Sith species possessed the technology to relocate themselves to nearby Ziost. It is therefore possible that some Sith from this era became the "True Sith," taking up residence out in the Unknown Regions, and eventually constructing the Trayus Academy on Malachor V.

 

The Sith were a species, when the renegade jedi landed on Korriban, the race became intermingled with these dark jedi and together they created the Sith cult. Anyone could be inducted into this new cult if they showed potential.

 

It also says that "it is therefore possible" this is not proof, merely another hypothesis on faulty information. If you listen carefully to the dialog in game (and with an open mind, which I admit is not easy once you have formed an opinion) you will see that there is no indication that the True Sith are a race. They are simply the product of specific teachings, not the immitation Sith of Revan and Traya etc.

 

The True Siths origins as a race and not a people, happened on these very forums! Not in the games.

 

Incorrect... the Sith Race discussions pre-date these forums by quite a bit (late 1980's and early 1990's) at many a Sci-fi/Comic/RPG game convention.

 

Again, you are confusing the Sith race with the True Sith.

 

The Sith race lived on Korriban long before the Sith Cult rose as a threat to the Jedi and galaxy at large.

During the Unification Wars, the Jedi outlawed Darkside practices, leading to the Second Great Schism thousands of years later in which Jedi and Dark Jedi battled for dominance. The Dark Jedi were defeated and exiled, eventually settling on Korriban the home of the Sith Race. The Dark Jedi interbred with the Sith and adopted their religion. This is the origin of the Sith Empire, and also the origin of the Sith Order or Sith Cult

 

The above is all canon, not my guesswork or the guesswork of others. So the Sith Race has been around for a long time, but the True Sith were first theorized to be a race on these forums.

 

So far there is no canonical definition of the True Sith. But I believe there is very evidence to point to them being a race, and a great deal of (circumstantial) evidence to indicating they are the members of the original Sith Cult.

[Astrotoy7]

*Sithy(aka El Sitherino) walks in, looks around, shrugs and leaves*

 

This topic has been roasted, toasted and healthily digested at the EU forum. We are more than equipped to sort out any canon gripes !

 

Longstoryshort...... apart from what is mentioned about Bane in the TPM Novelisation(G level canon), everything falls in C-level(games, comics etc) or below.

 

For fans of sith lore, I recommend the Darth Bane duology(books)..... tis a shame they cancelled the planned novels about Sidious origins and Plagueis

 

mtfbwya

[Astor]

I don't see why you couldn't have made these points in the existing thread, but never mind.

 

The Sith were a species, when the renegade jedi landed on Korriban, the race became intermingled with these dark jedi and together they created the Sith cult. Anyone could be inducted into this new cult if they showed potential.

 

This is already known to most people. What's your point in telling us, exactly?

 

 

 

If you listen carefully to the dialog in game (and with an open mind, which I admit is not easy once you have formed an opinion) you will see that there is no indication that the True Sith are a race.

 

Just as there is no indication that they are anything else.

 

It also says that "it is therefore possible" this is not proof, merely another hypothesis on faulty information.[/Quote]

 

Anyone could say the same about your hypothesis.

 

But I believe there is very evidence to point to them being a race, and a great deal of (circumstantial) evidence to indicating they are the members of the original Sith Cult.

 

That's just confusing. It seems like you've set out to prove that the True Sith aren't a race, but then you seem to state that it's more likely they are a race.

 

Correct me if i'm wrong in my interpretations.

[El Sitherino]

What is this and why is it in Ahto?

[Revan 411]

This seems to be a True Sith debate topic in which case it might be interesting...

 

But, why is it in Ahoto? Shouldn't it be in Republic News feed or Telos bureau?

[Astor]

What is this and why is it in Ahto?

 

Rictus has decided to respond to a thread in the K3 speculation boards by creating a thread here.

 

I don't see why it couldn't have been said in the existing thread, but it really should be moved to wherever it is better suited.

[adamqd]

I'm not a fan of TSL, and I've long been disgruntled by the "True Sith" crap, But my problem is not with what there origins have been theorized to be, my problem is that there called TRUE Sith, I feel no need to retcon all my favorite bad guys into pretenders and Holocron thief's.

[Astrotoy7]

lolz....this really belongs in the EU forum, but it seems Telos is the place for discussion that goes in circles...so carry on !

 

 

mtfbwya

[Miltiades]

There was a mention in Jedi vs. Sith where Ajunta Pall said in the Telos Holocron that a number of Sith Lords together with some other Sith/Massassi, having learned the Sith Alchemy, used the ship the dark Jedi came with to return into hyperspace to take the fight back to the Jedi, despite Ajunta's warning. Ajunta noted, however, that because no one ever visited Korriban afterwards, the Sith Lords must have failed in finding the Jedi or not having told the location of the Sith homeworld.

 

These Sith could've made their home somewhere else, laying dormant for thousands of years. This doesn't stroke with Kreia's comment that the true Sith came before the ancient Sith Empire, however.

[RedHawke]

The True Siths origins as a race and not a people, happened on these very forums! Not in the games.

Uh? Ok then... explain to me the abundant number of quite geeky and zeitgeist-filled conversations I had as a teenager with many others in the plethora of conventions I went to in the late 80's on this topic?

 

Again, you are confusing the Sith race with the True Sith.

No I am not, and I would thank you for not making assumptions (bad ones at that) when I have informed you otherwise in my statement.

 

The Sith race lived on Korriban long before the Sith Cult rose as a threat to the Jedi and galaxy at large.

During the Unification Wars, the Jedi outlawed Darkside practices, leading to the Second Great Schism thousands of years later in which Jedi and Dark Jedi battled for dominance. The Dark Jedi were defeated and exiled, eventually settling on Korriban the home of the Sith Race. The Dark Jedi interbred with the Sith and adopted their religion. This is the origin of the Sith Empire, and also the origin of the Sith Order or Sith Cult

 

The above is all canon, not my guesswork or the guesswork of others. So the Sith Race has been around for a long time, but the True Sith were first theorized to be a race on these forums.

 

So far there is no canonical definition of the True Sith. But I believe there is very evidence to point to them being a race, and a great deal of (circumstantial) evidence to indicating they are the members of the original Sith Cult.

Oy! Here we go again... canon... that mysterious thing that gives people the authoritah to tell others they don't know crap.

 

And this all has absolutely nothing to do with what I told you or the point I was making.

 

Sorry, but the True Sith/Sith Race/True Sith Race was an idea that that did not originate here on these forums, unless Lucasforums was around RPG, sci-fi, and comic conventions in 1987-88?

[TKA-001]

Here we go again... canon... that mysterious thing that gives people the authoritah to tell others they don't know crap.

Request: Forgive me if I don't have the slightest idea what this statement is supposed to mean.

[Sir Vougalot]

I could write a book on this, but here is a brief overview of what I think the "true Sith" are (though I doubt this was is what Kreia had in mind):

 

The Sith (species) that the Exiles came upon and lorded over in 6,900 BBY were said to be a primitive race, knowing little about the cosmos and worshiping natural phenomena as deities (thus why they were so quick to honor the conquering Dark Jedi as gods). But it is said that in 28,000 BBY, Sith king Adas of Korriban defeated the Rakata and relocated his people to the nearby planet Ziost, suggesting that they were accustomed to space travel at the time. How then are they a primitive people by the time the Exiles come around?

 

I believe that at some point either Adas himself or one of his successors must have observed a drastic difference in the Sith people: some were modernists while other held onto their archaic ways. Believing the latter group to have been weak and unworthy, the modernist Sith abandoned Ziost and the school of Sith who were behind the times, and set off to build an empire elsewhere, eventually coming upon the Unknown Regions and building the Trayus Academy on Malachor V.

 

So we have a rift in the Sith race: those modernists who set out for the Unknown regions and those who stuck to their old ways. The former group would consider themselves the "true Sith," and the latter group was left to devolve on Ziost, eventually conquered by exiled Dark Jedi who founded the first Sith Empire. All the while the "true Sith" were building an empire of their own in the Unknown Regions, plotting to take over the galaxy when the time was ripe. Revan may have found evidence of their existence during his time as Dark Lord, and these memories may have come flooding back sometime after the events of the first Knights of the Old Republic game. This may have been why he departed for the Unknown Regions: to battle this potential threat to the Republic and the galaxy (or, in continuation the non-canonical dark side ending, to his new Sith Empire).

[rictus135]

Uh? Ok then... explain to me the abundant number of quite geeky and zeitgeist-filled conversations I had as a teenager with many others in the plethora of conventions I went to in the late 80's on this topic?

 

 

No I am not, and I would thank you for not making assumptions (bad ones at that) when I have informed you otherwise in my statement.

 

And this all has absolutely nothing to do with what I told you or the point I was making.

 

Sorry, but the True Sith/Sith Race/True Sith Race was an idea that that did not originate here on these forums, unless Lucasforums was around RPG, sci-fi, and comic conventions in 1987-88?

 

Just to clarify, the term "True Sith" was used, specifically, in the late 80's. If it was anything other than that specific term, we have our wires crossed.

 

Also I didn't mean to state that the concept of the "True Sith" was created here, but that one particular definition of that term was - at the very least - popularized on these (and the EU) forums as referring to a species of alien.

 

Oy! Here we go again... canon... that mysterious thing that gives people the authoritah to tell others they don't know crap.

 

You can't argue with canon. The theories of fans are not actual parts of the Star Wars universe no matter how old they are or where they originated. Officially licensed media is. With all due respect, try to keep your ego in check.

 

Finally I may have worded my opening post badly, I didn't mean to say "I am right and you are wrong". All I meant to say was that there is no canonical definition of the term "True Sith", so defining them as a species is wrong, and added my own theory on the matter.

 

Edit: I would also like to add that I entitled this thread the "Great Sith Great Debate", not "The Truth About The True Sith".

[Astor]

You can't argue with canon. The theories of fans are not actual parts of the Star Wars universe no matter how old they are or where they originated. Officially licensed media is. With all due respect, try to keep your ego in check.[/Quote]

 

That's all well and good, but i'll refer you to your own post:

 

All I meant to say was that there is no canonical definition of the term "True Sith"[/Quote]

 

So, seeing as there's no official ruling on it, we can argue all we like.

 

so defining them as a species is wrong, and added my own theory on the matter.

 

If there's no official decision, defining them as a species is just a valid as your own theory.

 

I didn't mean to say "I am right and you are wrong".

 

Maybe not, but you're saying that our non-canonical theories are less valid than your own non-canonical theories.

[Sir Vougalot]

Why do my long-winded theories always go unnoticed in these "true Sith" threads?

[Astor]

Why do my long-winded theories always go unnoticed in these "true Sith" threads?

 

Sorry, Z, I didn't see that you'd posted.

 

It's an interesting theory, to be sure. A modernist/luddite (to use an alternative meaning) rift would be a plausible way of explaining a Sith species maintaining an Empire, waiting to strike...

[adamqd]

But isn't the whole Sith taking over the galaxy, Darkside vs Lightside thing a product of the exiled Dark Jedi's influence and lording of the Sith Species? Why would a separate sect of pre Dark Jedi Sith be concerned with the Jedi/Republic?

[Sir Vougalot]

Because the Jedi and Sith organizations do not by any means have a monopoly on the Force, or the light and dark sides. There are numerous Force religions and philosophies in the Star Wars galaxy of both light and dark standing.

 

It is very plausible that this other group of dark side users may have had dreams of galactic conquest. One does not need be associated with fallen Jedi in order to have this goal in mind. Just look at the Yuuzhan Vong, for example.

[rictus135]

So, seeing as there's no official ruling on it, we can argue all we like.

 

I couldn't agree more. Thats why this is a debate.

 

If there's no official decision, defining them as a species is just a valid as your own theory.

 

Again I agree.

I'm not saying people must use my theory as opposed to the species theory, what I am saying is people shouldn't feel they have to subscribe to the most prevalent theory around. They can do whatever they want to do.

 

You're saying that our non-canonical theories are less valid than your own non-canonical theories.

 

I suppose that I am, but I must stress again that this is only intended as my opinion, not an indisputable fact.

 

There is nothing in the game to indicate the True Sith are a species, but there is a possible connection to the Sith Empire. The true Sith are said to be connected to both Korriban and Malachore V. Since Kreia teaches you of the Sith Lords of the Sith Empire, at the same time as mentioning the True Sith, this would seem to indicate they are connected.

It would also be highly probable that the teachings of the descendants of Adas on Ziost, would be vastly different to the Jedi/Sith hybrid teachings that originated on Korriban. Again there is no indication of such a disparity, the games seems to take it for granted that they are one and the same. This is what I mean by circumstantial evidence supporting my theory.

 

@Zerimar I did read your post, but had nothing to say about it. I can't disprove it in any way, and I do not think it is any more likely than my own theory. I just let it stand as an alternate theory for people to consider.

[Astor]

But isn't the whole Sith taking over the galaxy, Darkside vs Lightside thing a product of the exiled Dark Jedi's influence and lording of the Sith Species? Why would a separate sect of pre Dark Jedi Sith be concerned with the Jedi/Republic?

 

Because, maybe they percieve other life as a threat to their existence and supremacy (the Sith Order, which draws much inspiration from the species, does have some totalitarian leanings, after all).

 

I couldn't agree more. Thats why this is a debate.[/Quote]

 

Again I agree.

 

I'm glad we agree. If we're going to have a discussion, it should be civilised.

 

I'm not saying people must use my theory as opposed to the species theory, what I am saying is people shouldn't feel they have to subscribe to the most prevalent theory around. They can do whatever they want to do.

 

Agreed. We all have our own theories, and they're all as valid as each other.

 

I suppose that I am, but I must stress again that this is only intended as my opinion, not an indisputable fact.

 

Just the same with mine.

 

And it wouldn't surprise me if the Sith Lords and the True Sith are in some way connected with each other. But I guess we shall have to wait and see what form that connection will take.

[adamqd]

Because the Jedi and Sith organizations do not by any means have a monopoly on the Force, or the light and dark sides. There are numerous Force religions and philosophies in the Star Wars galaxy of both light and dark standing.

 

It is very plausible that this other group of dark side users may have had dreams of galactic conquest. One does not need be associated with fallen Jedi in order to have this goal in mind. Just look at the Yuuzhan Vong, for example.

 

I completely agree, and I'm well versed in Galactic history thank you, I just think that some folks theorize about the possible True Sith having the same goals and beef with Jedi as the the post Dark Jedi Sith, which if turns out to be true, is a bit lazy IMO, lets have them do somthin else lol

[TKA-001]

There are numerous Force religions and philosophies in the Star Wars galaxy of both light and dark standing.

True, but almost all of those organizations are limited to very small areas of the galaxy, and are nowhere near as prominent as the Jedi (or Sith, depending on the timeline).

[Sir Vougalot]

Well, perhaps this is one prominent group that no one knows about. If Kreia's words are meant to be taken literally, they are running an entire empire in secret.

 

But I agree with what adamqd is saying: this group of Sith should not have some sort of vendetta against the Jedi or the Republic. If my theory stated about is correct, then such a vendetta would not be logical as these Sith departed from Ziost to build their empire before the Republic and Jedi Order even existed.

 

Perhaps their qualm is actually with the other Sith? Now that would be interesting. If they see the other Sith (i.e the Dark Jedi Sith) as somehow a continuation of the weaklings they abandoned on Ziost, believing them to be unworthy of being Sith; and they view the current Sith as somehow connected to or a continuation of those "weaklings" back on Ziost who now dare to attempt galactic domination and act as if they know everything there is to know about the dark side of the Force; perhaps these "true Sith" believe that these heretics need to be destroyed. And perhaps Revan saw the coming clash between these two Sith groups as a major threat to the Republic sitting in the middle, which was why he went to eliminate the threat before it had a chance to strike.

[rictus135]

This is another thing that could point to my theory being true.

[Sir Vougalot]

Definitely!

 

Unfortunately for us, though, every time we post theories, if it turns out that LucasArts had anything remotely similar planned they have to scrap it for fear of lawsuits. So basically none of our theories would ever be true.