Tommycat Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 pfft, they didn't stand idly by. They ran away. I never do this, but QFT Classic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Nine Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 How much of it is due to the Democrats though, this subprime mess happened on their watch, and they planted the seeds for it... So this could be considered the Democrat's mess. Bush and his policies certainly did not help it, and McCain voted with Bush over 90% of the time, so he's equally culpable. Wrong, because McCain had filled out the paperwork for Public Financing BEFORE Obama backed out. And the Democrats were all up in arms saying McCain would be unable to back out... McCain couldn't back out because of his own entanglements with the FEC. He flip-flopped on public financing a lot in 2007 before signing on with the FEC. Let's not forget that McCain wanted to opt out of public financing, but couldn't because of his FEC entanglements. So he had to eat his gun and accept the public money because he couldn't accept private donations thanks to his own meanderings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarfieldJL Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 Bush and his policies certainly did not help it, and McCain voted with Bush over 90% of the time, so he's equally culpable. You need to read the bills that made it to Bush's desk because Bush cannot vote in the United States Senate. See Articles I and II of the United States Constitution. McCain couldn't back out because of his own entanglements with the FEC. He flip-flopped on public financing a lot in 2007 before signing on with the FEC. If there was a reason McCain couldn't accept private money, it was his own fault, not Obama's. Actually, that's not entirely true. McCain filed the paperwork for public financing for when he entered the General Election before Obama went back on his word. You can argue all you want, but the point is McCain was locked in for Public Financing before Obama broke his pledge/contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 You need to read the bills that made it to Bush's desk because Bush cannot vote in the United States Senate.[/Quote] Did I misread Rogue Nine's comment. I thought Rogue Nine's comment about Bush involved Bush's policies not bills. Oh, and my history may be vague, but wasn't there Republican Congress for 6 of his 8 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Nine Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 You need to read the bills that made it to Bush's desk because Bush cannot vote in the United States Senate. But McCain could. And did. Actually, that's not entirely true. McCain filed the paperwork for public financing for when he entered the General Election before Obama went back on his word. You can argue all you want, but the point is McCain was locked in for Public Financing before Obama broke his pledge/contract. Yeah, I just said that. He was locked into it because of all the problems he was going through with the FEC. By admitting that McCain was locked in even before Obama made the decision to accept private financing, you've effectively demonstrated that it wasn't Obama's fault under promissory estoppel that McCain had spending limits. Thanks for making my argument for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 By admitting that McCain was locked in even before Obama made the decision to accept private financing, you've effectively demonstrated that it wasn't Obama's fault under promissory estoppel that McCain had spending limits. Thanks for making my argument for me. FTW!!! ROGUE NINE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarfieldJL Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 But McCain could. And did. The policies may have been good just Bush isn't a very good manager, and you said voting with Bush 90% of the time. Yeah, I just said that. He was locked into it because of all the problems he was going through with the FEC. McCain got locked in after Obama made the pledge. By admitting that McCain was locked in even before Obama made the decision to accept private financing, you've effectively demonstrated that it wasn't Obama's fault under promissory estoppel that McCain had spending limits. Thanks for making my argument for me. I never said that, he made the decision before McCain was locked in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrrtoken Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 You have officially lost this argument. By providing no solid proof, by making wild accusations, and by having yourself corrected dozens of time, there is no more merit in this thread. Niner is lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Nine Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 The policies may have been good just Bush isn't a very good manager, and you said voting with Bush 90% of the time. Voting alongside Bush's positions 90% of the time. Which he said so himself. McCain got locked in after Obama made the pledge. Yeah, because the FEC was breathing down McCain's neck for trying to back out of public financing himself. I never said that, he [Obama] made the decision before McCain was locked in. Excuse me? but the point is McCain was locked in for Public Financing before Obama broke his pledge/contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarfieldJL Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 You have officially lost this argument. By providing no solid proof, by making wild accusations, and by having yourself corrected dozens of time, there is no more merit in this thread. Niner is lord. I have not lost anything, fact is Obama made the pledge/contract, McCain started into the Public Financing and then Obama renigged. That is a breach of contract. Seriously even CBS News admits Obama broke his promise, though it neglects to point out that McCain had entered into the public financing before he broke his word. Yeah, because the FEC was breathing down McCain's neck for trying to back out of public financing himself. You don't have your timeline straight, McCain tried to back out after Obama had renigged on his pledge and the FEC wouldn't let him back out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astor Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 It's an election. The guys in it want to win (i'm assuming). Ergo, they'll do everything they can to win. Just because McCain chose to limit his funds doesn't mean that Obama had to. As to his 'breaking his word' - get over it. Obama saw that he would raise more funds by not using public funding, so chose not to do so after he saw the advantage it would give it him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarfieldJL Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 It's an election. The guys in it want to win (i'm assuming). Ergo, they'll do everything they can to win. Just because McCain chose to limit his funds doesn't mean that Obama had to. I don't care that they want to win, I do care when they don't play by the rules. As to his 'breaking his word' - get over it. Obama saw that he would raise more funds by not using public funding, so chose not to do so after he saw the advantage it would give it him. The point is that he entered into a contract, and then it's extremely likely that Obama knowingly accepted illegal campaign contributions. Which is precisely why the public financing was put in place. This election has basically just totally destroyed the public financing system, no candidate will ever take public financing again, which we end up with the same corruption problem that we had before the system was put in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astor Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 I don't care that they want to win, I do care when they don't play by the rules. What rules? Someone didn't do something they said they would. That happens a lot, you know. The point is that he entered into a contract, and then it's extremely likely that Obama knowingly accepted illegal campaign contributions. Proof? This election has basically just totally destroyed the public financing system, no candidate will ever take public financing again, which we end up with the same corruption problem that we had before the system was put in place. Garfield, this could have been a chance for you to show that you could be gracious in defeat - just like McCain - but you still have to come up with some way of throwing accusations. I urge all Americans who supported me to join me in not just congratulating him, but offering our next president our good will and earnest effort to find ways to come together to find the necessary compromises to bridge our differences and help restore our prosperity, defend our security in a dangerous world, and leave our children and grandchildren a stronger, better country than we inherited. Maybe you should think about the Senator's words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Nine Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 You don't have your timeline straight, McCain tried to back out after Obama had renigged on his pledge and the FEC wouldn't let him back out. Feb 6, 2008 - McCain tries to back out. Jun 18, 2008 - Obama opts out of public financing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarfieldJL Posted November 6, 2008 Author Share Posted November 6, 2008 Feb 6, 2008 - McCain tries to back out. This letter is to advise you that I, on behalf of myself and John McCain 2008, Inc., my principal campaign committee, am withdrawing from participation in the federal primary-election funding program established by the Presidential Primary Matching Payment Account Act. No funds have been paid to date by the Department of the Treasury, and the certification of funds has not been pledged as security for private finances. Wasn't that over a "loan" that McCain never took the money out? Furthermore, if you read the letter it is referring to the Republican Primary not the General Election. Nice try, but the primary is not the general election, and remember Mitt Romney was still in it in February spending large amounts of money. Jun 18, 2008 - Obama opts out of public financing. Actually that makes it even worse for Obama, if you have the dates, because he made the pledge back in 2007. So this brings up three possibilities. That McCain was trying to get it so his options remained open if Obama renigged, by getting hints from sources close to Obama. That Obama was waiting to make sure that McCain would be unable to get out of the FEC conundrum before renigging so McCain wouldn't stand a chance. (Most likely) That what you brought up concerning McCain has little to nothing to do with your argument considering it isn't even referring to the General Election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Nine Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Furthermore, if you read the letter it is referring to the Republican Primary not the General Election. Nice try, but the primary is not the general election, and remember Mitt Romney was still in it in February spending large amounts of money. The Presidential Primary Matching Payment Account is a subsection of Presidential Election Campaign Fund, which is set aside for general election funding. The law is clear. If you want to opt out of one, you opt out of the whole thing. And I'm going to have to remind you that you said this: Actually, that's not entirely true. McCain filed the paperwork for public financing for when he entered the General Election before Obama went back on his word. You can argue all you want, but the point is McCain was locked in for Public Financing before Obama broke his pledge/contract. You got it right the first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 I have not lost anything, fact is Obama made the pledge/contract, McCain started into the Public Financing and then Obama renigged. That is a breach of contract.[/Quote] Hedging your bet now? Earlier you said it was a contract. First off I must apologize to the members and to President-Elect Obama as my entire argument was flawed. Obama never made a commitment to receive public money. He made a comment that he would meet with McCain to see if they could make a deal. Since McCain sign up for public money before Obama declared he would finance his campaign with private funds I apologize for saying that Obama broke his word. 1. Obama did not say he would take public money 2. McCain sign up for public funds before Obama declared he would finance with private funds. 3. There is no contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommycat Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Bush and his policies certainly did not help it, and McCain voted with Bush over 90% of the time, so he's equally culpable. nit pick: Actually McCain DID NOT vote with Bush over 90% of the time. If he said this, I want to see proof of this. He DID however say that he voted with his PARTY over 90% of the time. It was said when he was trying to win the party nomination. It still looked bad for McCain anyway because he was trying to look like a maverick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 nit pick: Actually McCain DID NOT vote with Bush over 90% of the time. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/669/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Nine Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 nit pick: Actually McCain DID NOT vote with Bush over 90% of the time. If he said this, I want to see proof of this. wsup wsup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderWiggin Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 How much of it is due to the Democrats though, this subprime mess happened on their watch, and they planted the seeds for it... So this could be considered the Democrat's mess. I think that a lot of it is due to the mainstream media though, a lot of these messes happened on their watch - it's actually the media's mess. _EW_ PS: well argued, Niner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommycat Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/669/ Heh... I stand corrected. My bad. Thanks for the link. Though it was 90% average. 77 at the lowest and 95% at the highest. Those numbers are also kinda skewed because of the issues he agreed with the president on. Immigration and the Iraq war were the main ones. Plus he missed more than half the votes last year. It is kind of a misrepresentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarfieldJL Posted November 6, 2008 Author Share Posted November 6, 2008 Okay I just found something referring to a written document. On a questionaire by the good government group Common Cause, Obama wrote, "If I am the Democratic nominee, I will aggressively pursue an agreement with the Republican nominee to preserve a publicly financed general election." ABC News Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achilles Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Yep, he said that. That he was unable to reach "an agreement with the Republican nominee" does not mean that he lied, broke his promise, went back on his word, changed his mind, etc, etc, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Nine Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Okay I just found something referring to a written document. ABC News Hahahaha, you're kidding, right? Let's break this down. On a questionaire A questionaire is not a binding legal contract. by the good government group Common Cause, Common Cause is not the FEC or any sort of official governmental body at all. Obama wrote, "If I am the Democratic nominee, I will aggressively pursue an agreement with the Republican nominee to preserve a publicly financed general election." "Aggressively pursue" does not equate to "I promise to make". And yet again, reminding you that you said this: Actually, that's not entirely true. McCain filed the paperwork for public financing for when he entered the General Election before Obama went back on his word. You can argue all you want, but the point is McCain was locked in for Public Financing before Obama broke his pledge/contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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