Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. , William Wilberforce, and Christianity

[obi]

With a passionate love and strong foundation in Jesus Christ, William Wilberforce and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. have done more for the advancement of justice than any other character in history, save for Jesus Himself.

 

William Wilberforce information :

 

http://creation.com/anti-slavery-activist-william-wilberforce-christian-hero

 

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. information:

 

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/januaryweb-only/11.0b.html

 

Is it fair to say that Christianity is wrong because some nutjobs were insane and believed in the Bible?

 

Is it possible that the likes of Hitler and other insane leaders were not really Christian? Jesus tells us that you can tell who His real followers are in this scripture: Matthew 7:16-17 " By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit"

 

Examining the life of Christ, who's fruit is closer to Christ?

 

(edit) This is not neccessarily for the other thread, because the comparison between Hitler and MLK have been made- I just wanted to make this thread in response to a few chat room sessions I had earlier where people told me repeatedly that Hitler was a Christian.

[obi]

With a passionate love and strong foundation in Jesus Christ, William Wilberforce and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. have done more for the advancement of justice than any other character in history, save for Jesus Himself.

 

William Wilberforce information :

 

http://creation.com/anti-slavery-activist-william-wilberforce-christian-hero

 

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. information:

 

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/januaryweb-only/11.0b.html

 

Is it fair to say that Christianity is wrong because some nutjobs were insane and believed in the Bible?

 

Is it possible that the likes of Hitler and other insane leaders were not really Christian? Jesus tells us that you can tell who His real followers are in this scripture: Matthew 7:16-17 " By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit"

 

Examining the life of Christ, who's fruit is closer to Christ?

 

(edit) This is not neccessarily for the other thread, because the comparison between Hitler and MLK have been made- I just wanted to make this thread in response to a few chat room sessions I had earlier where people told me repeatedly that Hitler was a Christian.

[Rake]

I don't think anyone is saying christianity is "wrong." Basically, for me that is, why should I believe in Christianity when there are hundreds if not thousands of other religions that are pretty similar to it. Why should I believe there is a higher power? Also, for me, the core problem isn't christianity itself with nutjobs like Hitler. How many people have been used, manipulated, or killed in the name of religion in general?

[Rake]

I don't think anyone is saying christianity is "wrong." Basically, for me that is, why should I believe in Christianity when there are hundreds if not thousands of other religions that are pretty similar to it. Why should I believe there is a higher power? Also, for me, the core problem isn't christianity itself with nutjobs like Hitler. How many people have been used, manipulated, or killed in the name of religion in general?

[RoxStar]

 

Is it possible that the likes of Hitler and other insane leaders were not really Christian? Jesus tells us that you can tell who His real followers are in this scripture: Matthew 7:16-17 " By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit"

 

This this, a thousand times this! Too many bad eggs spoil the bunch and many others still latch onto Christianity for selfish purposes. Just because you claim to be a Christian does not mean that you are one. You have to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ to truly be a Christian.

 

 

Also before I'm flakked, "by faith alone you are saved" implies not murdering millions of people.

[RoxStar]

 

Is it possible that the likes of Hitler and other insane leaders were not really Christian? Jesus tells us that you can tell who His real followers are in this scripture: Matthew 7:16-17 " By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit"

 

This this, a thousand times this! Too many bad eggs spoil the bunch and many others still latch onto Christianity for selfish purposes. Just because you claim to be a Christian does not mean that you are one. You have to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ to truly be a Christian.

 

 

Also before I'm flakked, "by faith alone you are saved" implies not murdering millions of people.

[CommanderQ]

Is it possible that the likes of Hitler and other insane leaders were not really Christian? Jesus tells us that you can tell who His real followers are in this scripture: Matthew 7:16-17 " By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit"

 

Examining the life of Christ, who's fruit is closer to Christ?

 

Very excellent choice of verse, Obi. That explains everything considering the actual followers of Christ. Thank you, by the way, it answered alot of my questions:D

[CommanderQ]

Is it possible that the likes of Hitler and other insane leaders were not really Christian? Jesus tells us that you can tell who His real followers are in this scripture: Matthew 7:16-17 " By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit"

 

Examining the life of Christ, who's fruit is closer to Christ?

 

Very excellent choice of verse, Obi. That explains everything considering the actual followers of Christ. Thank you, by the way, it answered alot of my questions:D

[True_Avery]

As far as I'm concerned, if you believe in Jesus and believe in God that makes some you some denomination of Christianity.

 

Now, just because Hitler was probably a Christian by definition does not make him an outstanding citizen, a person of sound mind/morals, or anything else our society usually attitudes to the practicing Christian.

 

I think this example can be placed upon a number of things. Because Hitler was a vegetarian, does that mean all vegetarians are are like Hitler? No. There is no logic to leap to in that comparison.

 

Extremists, fundamentalists, and the occasional crazy does not constitute an entire group of people. Christianity is not wrong because it has fire and brimstone street preachers explaining the end of the world, judgment, etc.

 

So, again, it is not the people that disprove a concept. It is the concept that can disprove itself, or must have someone else prove/disprove said concept. Christianity has yet to be proven or disproven to be correct, so just because Hitler fits the definition of that incredibly broud term does not constitute calling it wrong.

 

But, as far as who is closest to Christ...

 

I'm going to go with no-one.

 

If the Bible interpretation of Jesus is correct, then humans do not have the ability or frankly the right to compare themselves to such a deity. He is a supposedly perfect example to aspire to, but human nature seems to get in the way of that in the end.

 

But, if Jesus was just some normal street preacher who gained great renown then comparing yourself to such is fruitless anyway because that would imply that whoever he was has been skewed so heavily over 2,000 years that nobody really knows who he was anymore.

 

So, in my opinion, Hitler was a Christian. But, I warn against comparing yourself to his twisted version of Christianity in the same way I warn trying to aspire to the like of a diety. Comparing yourself to his Christian beliefs may as well be like you trying to compare your life to that of another person.

 

What do you gain from it? Why not accept your own beliefs and be comfortable with them instead of feeling other should be saved, or feel that your beliefs are somehow sullied by a madman? It is fruitless, and I believe the Bible warns of such comparisons as well.

 

But, In the end, you are human and so was Hitler and MLKjr.

[True_Avery]

As far as I'm concerned, if you believe in Jesus and believe in God that makes some you some denomination of Christianity.

 

Now, just because Hitler was probably a Christian by definition does not make him an outstanding citizen, a person of sound mind/morals, or anything else our society usually attitudes to the practicing Christian.

 

I think this example can be placed upon a number of things. Because Hitler was a vegetarian, does that mean all vegetarians are are like Hitler? No. There is no logic to leap to in that comparison.

 

Extremists, fundamentalists, and the occasional crazy does not constitute an entire group of people. Christianity is not wrong because it has fire and brimstone street preachers explaining the end of the world, judgment, etc.

 

So, again, it is not the people that disprove a concept. It is the concept that can disprove itself, or must have someone else prove/disprove said concept. Christianity has yet to be proven or disproven to be correct, so just because Hitler fits the definition of that incredibly broud term does not constitute calling it wrong.

 

But, as far as who is closest to Christ...

 

I'm going to go with no-one.

 

If the Bible interpretation of Jesus is correct, then humans do not have the ability or frankly the right to compare themselves to such a deity. He is a supposedly perfect example to aspire to, but human nature seems to get in the way of that in the end.

 

But, if Jesus was just some normal street preacher who gained great renown then comparing yourself to such is fruitless anyway because that would imply that whoever he was has been skewed so heavily over 2,000 years that nobody really knows who he was anymore.

 

So, in my opinion, Hitler was a Christian. But, I warn against comparing yourself to his twisted version of Christianity in the same way I warn trying to aspire to the like of a diety. Comparing yourself to his Christian beliefs may as well be like you trying to compare your life to that of another person.

 

What do you gain from it? Why not accept your own beliefs and be comfortable with them instead of feeling other should be saved, or feel that your beliefs are somehow sullied by a madman? It is fruitless, and I believe the Bible warns of such comparisons as well.

 

But, In the end, you are human and so was Hitler and MLKjr.

[Tommycat]

As far as I'm concerned, if you believe in Jesus and believe in God that makes some you some denomination of Christianity.

 

So every Muslim is also a Christian?

 

Really you need to seperate out those who claim Christianity in public, but are not in reality.

[Tommycat]

As far as I'm concerned, if you believe in Jesus and believe in God that makes some you some denomination of Christianity.

 

So every Muslim is also a Christian?

 

Really you need to seperate out those who claim Christianity in public, but are not in reality.

[CommanderQ]

So every Muslim is also a Christian?

 

Really you need to seperate out those who claim Christianity in public, but are not in reality.

 

 

Exactly, and the verse posted by Obi explains that very well, just look at the fruit, it works everywhere:D

[CommanderQ]

So every Muslim is also a Christian?

 

Really you need to seperate out those who claim Christianity in public, but are not in reality.

 

 

Exactly, and the verse posted by Obi explains that very well, just look at the fruit, it works everywhere:D

[True_Avery]

So every Muslim is also a Christian?

Point.

 

If Hitler was Muslim, however, he would have referred to "God" as "Allah", but this is just picking hairs and not entirely accurate.

 

Really you need to separate out those who claim Christianity in public, but are not in reality.

As I cannot be in the mind of another, I am not sure if you or I are one to make that judgment.

 

The Pope claims to be Catholic. He is the Pope, gives speeches, and does Pope things. He has followers, and those that do his work.

 

Do I have 100% proof that he is Catholic? Do his own, personal beliefs even reflect what most would call Catholic? All I have to go on is his word, his public appearance, etc and the social "norm" of what being Catholic means.

 

I can go on what they say in public and take a guess at their personal beliefs, but from my Sociology Classes I've come to the conclusion that while you can try to make good guesses you are probably going to end up being wrong.

 

Which brings me to my next question:

What is a true Christian?

 

We all have our inside person whom only we can communicate with. Our "I". The internal us that does not interact with the outside.

 

And then we have the "We". The part of us that communicated with the outside. A personal mask over the "I" that we wear to change and adapt to the social atmosphere of social interaction.

 

Which, in my opinion, a distinction can also be made between Personal Faith and Belief, and the mask you put on for other people.

 

Now, how do you know that you, personally, know someone? Are you not always interacting with their "We" mask?

 

I can only make assumptions on your beliefs from what I know from reading your posts and vice versa. How do you know that I am not playing Devil's Advocate now and then if I do not state as such?

 

So, I submit to you that a "false" Christian and a "real" Christian are one in the same. A "real" Christian can only be truly defined by the person in question, while a "fake" Christian may be a speaker/friend/family member/etc who plays the Christian part but does not truly believe as such.

 

For an example, my Friend. Has been going to church his entire life. Goes almost every Sunday with his Parents. His parents believe him to be a solid Christian, maybe even a fundamentalist. When he is away from his parents, however, he is very much Nihilistic and expresses his distaste of going to Church and having to put on a mask for his parents.

 

Now, the question is: Is he a real christian or not? Is he putting on a mask for me, or a mask for his parents? Does his "I" believe, but he replaces his "We" mask to adapt to situations?

 

I do not know. I cannot fully make that judgment without being in his mind myself.

 

So, while I will contemplate the differences between public speaking and the "I" principle, I ask you to consider the differences between what is shown and what is not shown.

 

This thread mentions Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. (I cannot comment on William Wilberforce, as I do not know enough about him). The context of the thread seems to place him in the category as a "true" Christian.

 

MLKjr was a well known public speaker and moved a nation with his words, if not much of the world. His preaching, speeches, words, etc all point to him being a Christian but how do we 100% know? How does he fit into a category as broad as Christianity?

 

In his time he demonized the Catholic church for example. Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity, so by the point of view of those on the other side of his words MLK may have been considered un-christian. By the standards of those people, he may not have been christian at all.

 

His praise, speeches, etc point towards it but as not having met him, interacted with him, or been in his mind I can only suppose.

 

And if they were not, then MLK, Hitler, and many others acted an act that played a crowd like a violin. If the masses could not see through their ruse, then who is really the "true" and "false" christian here? The public speaker, or the gullible crowds? The only evidence we have, or could ever have, about people who call themselves Christian comes from the very confession of those making the claim.

 

So, again:

Really you need to separate out those who claim Christianity in public, but are not in reality.

My reply, summarized, is that I feel I have no way of doing so and would ask the members reading this thread to make this distinction clearer for me.

 

Because, as with my friend, myself and his parents cannot tell what is public and what is, as you say, "reality".

 

Clarification on "reality" as well, as, from my perspective, "reality" is what we view and what is presented to us. If the "We" mask is all we seem to see, then our social "reality" would be determined by the "We" masks we interact with on a daily basis. Any attempt to translate the "I" would merely be supposition.

 

Which comes to the problem of: What is a social belief, and what is a personal belief?

[Q]

The answer is actually quite simple. Read the Gospel of John. Disregard all of the miracles, the claims of godhood and the other religious aspects if you want to and concentrate on Jesus' philosophy. He speaks it quite plainly, and that alone should provide you with the context needed to tell the true Christians from the false ones. The difference should become rather obvious to you when you observe their behavior.

[Tommycat]

Well as for some like public figures the private conversations tend to be more enlightening as to their real views. One who gives a speech praising God and Jesus may only be using it for political gains. Or may even be using it to sway people into actions they might not want to do.

[Jae Onasi]

Information on Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. can also be found at these sites:

 

The King Center Research program page (links are near the bottom of the page)

The King Institute at Stanford Univ.

Lyndon Johnson Presidential Library which houses a tremendous amount of material on communication between LBJ and King on Civil Rights issues.

 

All three are repositories for huge amounts of primary source historical documents. Please feel free to PM me if you have questions on King--I did a lot of research on his work on civil rights at the Johnson Library.

[Achilles]

*ahem*

 

Is the argument that Dr. King would not (or even could not) have accomplished what he did without a strong belief in Jesus Christ? If not, then could you please explain what the argument is? And if so, could you please present your case for how you were able to rule every other possible influence, therefore leaving you with this conclusion?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

P.S. Please be aware that I might be tempted to argue that Dr. King was also largely influenced by Gandhi, who was in turn influenced by Jainism, which coincidentally, does not hold that jesus christ is our savior as a tenet.

[obi]

*ahem*

 

Is the argument that Dr. King would not (or even could not) have accomplished what he did without a strong belief in Jesus Christ? If not, then could you please explain what the argument is? And if so, could you please present your case for how you were able to rule every other possible influence, therefore leaving you with this conclusion?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

P.S. Please be aware that I might be tempted to argue that Dr. King was also largely influenced by Gandhi, who was in turn influenced by Jainism, which coincidentally, does not hold that jesus christ is our savior as a tenet.

 

Well, the question is: Is it ok to judge an entire group of people based on the actions of a few belonging to that group?

 

I had a debate with someone the day of this thread, and their only argument against Christianity was "Hitler was a christian! That should be evident there that religion drives people nuts and makes them do horrible things!" and "Christians have NEVER done anything for society!"

 

So I just felt the urge to point out this huge fallacy.

[Jae Onasi]

King did read Gandhi, admired the man, and even quoted him, but King was motivated largely by his faith in Christ to do what he did. His speeches and sermons (since he was a pastor) are filled with Biblical references, and his non-violence policy was based on Christ's example, as he stated.

 

Within the context of the culture and community of that time, King could not have done what he did without the backing of the Christian community of all races. Malcolm X tried to accomplish black rights through the black Muslim community but could not achieve what King and other leaders were able to accomplish.

[GarfieldJL]

I had a debate with someone the day of this thread, and their only argument against Christianity was "Hitler was a christian! That should be evident there that religion drives people nuts and makes them do horrible things!" and "Christians have NEVER done anything for society!"

 

And to add to that Tommycat argued in another thread that Hitler might not have even been a Christian.

 

@ Achilles

Also for the record, Dr. King was a Christian Pastor, so it's safe to say that Dr. King was probably a Christian...

[EnderWiggin]

Also for the record, Dr. King was a Christian Pastor, so it's safe to say that Dr. King was probably a Christian...

 

Thanks, but we're all quite aware of that.

 

This sentence shows an absolute disregard for the point that was being made.

 

_EW_

[Rake]

And to add to that Tommycat argued in another thread that Hitler might not have even been a Christian.

 

 

Also for the record, Dr. King was a Christian Pastor, so it's safe to say that Dr. King was probably a Christian...

 

And others have made an argument that he Hitler was a Christian. Simply stating that someone else argued for your point does not make your point correct...

 

I'm of the opinion that its too hard to "define" a christian, and like others have said. The protestant reformation opened the door to who knows, millions of interpretations of the bible. To claim one is "more right" than another seems awkward.

[GarfieldJL]

Thanks, but we're all quite aware of that.

 

This sentence shows an absolute disregard for the point that was being made.

 

What point? Seriously, the only point I saw was that the fallacy that faith had nothing to do with Dr. King's assertation that all men were created equal, when it was faith that was the driving reason behind it.