Death Star vs Star Forge?

[Darth Hord]

This will probably be my last post in this thread. And this post really has nothing to do with the battle itself but it is about the star forge and how I believe the time at which it can produce ships is being greatly exaggerated. And I will explain below.

 

But the Star Forge creates unlimited amount of ships, the Empire would be outnumbered within a few months/a year.

I highly doubt that and I will explain why below, using the facts that we know.

 

Fact 1: The Mandalorian Wars, ended in 3,960 BBY and Revan and Malak took one-third of the republic fleet with them. This means that the republic only has two-thirds of its fleet/navy remaining and a number of those ships would naturally be damaged and may have not have been worth repairing.

 

Fact 2: A year later (3,959 BBY) Revan and Malak invade the republic with a massive armada. The first known/major battle was a surprise attack against the repulic military base at(3,958 BBY, technically it's the 2nd year)) Foerost where they captured a substantial portion of the ships docked and those ships joined their sith navy. This means now that the republic has under two-thirds of its fleet/navy to combat the sith.

 

Fact 3:Sometime in 3,957, Malak betrays Revan, and becomes DLOTS.

 

Fact 4: Three years into the war (3,956 BBY) the events of kotor happen and the sith are defeated, and the star forge is blown up. Now during this time this sith are preparing to form their invasion fleet (s) to attack the inner rim/core worlds. (the argument from a sith and republic trooper on Manaa,also says much)

 

So in the 3-4 year period in which the star forge was under Revan/Malak's control they didn't have enough ships to make a successful bid (and have enough ships to protect their current territories.) on the inner/core planets until the very end. Yet you expect them out number the Galactic Empire within a year? This is highly unlikely considering that they have more ship yards/ship building facilities then just Republic (less than two-thirds of its original it had at the end of another war, so its forces/resources were pretty drained) and have a bigger (not to mention 4000 yeas more advance) fleet to begin with. And the manpower the sith would need for a navy to take on the GE would thus have to been staggering and may even slow up their war effort finding enough men to properly man the ships. (not to mention their skills of those recruits would be in question)

 

 

So in-conclusion I hoped I put some perspective of how fast the star forge produces ships. And I how feel people use the title of the infinite fleet erroneously, and how fast they think it can produce ships.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Revan did not use the Star Forge to its fullest capacity. He knew of its corrupting nature and only used it to replace his fleet as needed. Given that Revan was regarded as a genius of battle, it would be likely to assume that he didn't create an overwhelming fleet that could do more than defeat the Republic. When Malak took over, the capacity of the Star Forge tripled later in the war. And don't forget that Malak was all muscle and no brains when it came to war.

 

He likely used brute strength and overwhelming numbers like Napolian, making every victory more costly to the Sith than the Republic in terms of losses. I would assume that since Malak took over, he didn't know how to harness the Star Forge's vast capacity at first; but that he had always been able to just throw ships and droids away recklessly. Using tactics such as those compared to Revan's would go a long way to explain that the Republic was outnumbered, but that they used superior tactics to achieve a higher exchange ratio.

[LordSerion]

With Malak in control, I think Death Star would win. Malak has absolutely no tactical side, he belives in sheer power - however, capital ships wouldn't get through the DS's shield.

[Darth Hord]

Revan did not use the Star Forge to its fullest capacity. He knew of its corrupting nature and only used it to replace his fleet as needed. Given that Revan was regarded as a genius of battle, it would be likely to assume that he didn't create an overwhelming fleet that could do more than defeat the Republic. When Malak took over, the capacity of the Star Forge tripled later in the war. And don't forget that Malak was all muscle and no brains when it came to war.

 

Revan limited his personal contact with it, there is nothing to suggest that it didn't keep turning out warships. As we see the "full capacity" of the star forge involves it using feed on the darskide of captives, there is nothing to suggest that it all over a sudden stopped building ship and given's Revan genius it would have been smart to build more ships. The whole war effort was partially driven to protect the galaxy from the ancient sith empire (who based on the actions of Revan and Traya's comments, made the invasion seem pretty close, or at least in their minds). Like I said in my post the republic was down at least one third of its entire navy. The more ships Revan had at his disposal the easier it would be to spread the lines of the (already war tired) republic to a thread.

 

Also I pointed out the war 3 years long. Revan had 1/3 of the republic ships +what the SF created in the year prior to the war. Even Revan slowed it down somewhat (which I already shown why it was illogical) Malak tripling its rate of construction would make up for that. Plus they captured a fleet at Foerost, and I'd imagine they took over some of he shipyards in the outer/mid rim.

 

He likely used brute strength and overwhelming numbers like Napolian, making every victory more costly to the Sith than the Republic in terms of losses. I would assume that since Malak took over, he didn't know how to harness the Star Forge's vast capacity at first; but that he had always been able to just throw ships and droids away recklessly. Using tactics such as those compared to Revan's would go a long way to explain that the Republic was outnumbered, but that they used superior tactics to achieve a higher exchange ratio.

What is your source that Malak relied solely on "brute strength?" There is nothing to suggest that he had "no brains" as you put it. Yes, he was reckless and put himself into danger on the front lines (not an entirely bad trait for moral in battle to see your general fighting next to you) at times in the mandalorian wars. Sure he ordered planets to be glassed which spread the reputation of his ruthlessness and for people to fear him.(Grand Moff Tarkin would have loved him) But. "no brains," his betrayal of Revan shows he wasn't exactly a moron. Then you have to consider the fact that Revan or Malak can't be everywhere in the war. They had the same exact generals/admirals commanding the troops/ships on the frontlines.

[Mindtwistah]

Darth Hord: Interesting facts, but I do agree with Darth_Yuthura; Revan didn't use it to its full capacity.

 

Also, it had to build ships pretty fast, otherwise it wouldn't need to drain power from a sun, and the Rakata wouldn't be calling it "Pride of the Infinite Empire".

 

Also, you mention the 4000 years technology gap. The Star Forge was designed to build Rakatan ships. How can you know that the Rakatan ships weren't much stronger than the regular ships (Hammerhead and so on) at the time?

And feeding it with blueprints for Star Destroyers shouldn't be to hard.

[Darth Hord]

Darth Hord: Interesting facts, but I do agree with Darth_Yuthura; Revan didn't use it to its full capacity.

There is nothing to suggest that full capacity, Revan avoided contact so he didn't end up like the rakatan, there is nothing to suggest that he stopped it from building ships.

 

Also, it had to build ships pretty fast, otherwise it wouldn't need to drain power from a sun,

...It has to be somewhat comparable in size to the death star. It's needs constant energy to fuel the machines that build the ships,defense placements,power,stablizers,etc.

 

and the Rakata wouldn't be calling it "Pride of the Infinite Empire".

This has nothing to do with the rate at which it creates ships.

 

lso, you mention the 4000 years technology gap. The Star Forge was designed to build Rakatan ships.

According to wookieepedia the infinite empire dissolved in 25,200 BBY. In LOTF, Caedus calls Confederation ships from the clone wars era to be outdated and "ancient hardware" (or something along those lines)

 

How can you know that the Rakatan ships weren't much stronger than the regular ships (Hammerhead and so on) at the time?

We have never seen any Rakatan ships, the sith interdictor (leviathan) and the Centurion-class battlecruiser (Ravager) were both made in the republic originally not the star forge.

 

And feeding it with blueprints for Star Destroyers shouldn't be to hard.

One on one the imperial class star destroyers are better armed for combat then either capital ship in Revan's empire.(and the centurion's haven't been seen to be mass produced either) It will be extremely hard to take one down, plus t the systems/controls inside the star destroyers may very well be too advanced and unfamiliar for Revan's sith. Luke Skywalker has trouble flying starfighters (let alone massive warships,that needs all crew members to be competent) that he isn't familiar with (in fact he crashes one in the thrawn trilogy because of this), how do you expect them to understand the controls of 4000 yr. advanced. tech. the learning curve for an entire empire would be huge.(even if they tried to add the current tech to their current ship classes,there is no gaurantee those ship dimensions would allow it to be installed and they still have a huge learning curve against them) And in that time their current (outdated) ships would be suffering huge casualties.

[mattig89ch]

ah, but you aren't counting on droids to fly the ships (at first). It was my understanding that the star forge starts poping out droids with the ships, thats how I figured they manned the ships that fast too.

[Gob]

Assuming this is the first Death Star, it would win 7/10 times.

 

1. "Revan didn't use the SF to the full capacity" - So? If he didn't use it to the full capacity, we don't know what the full capacity is. Therefore, we can't assume how strong it would be, so you can't use it in determining the outcome of this fight.

2. "They could find out where the weak spot is" - How? The SF's best bet would to send out a massive amount of ships that continually fired across the entire DS until they hit something. And I doubt it would be able to send out enough ships in time to cover the entire DS.

 

The Death Star only has to fire one shot. That shot could tear through any ships that could get in the way, hit the Star Forge right at its core, and end the battle. Other than the ships that it produces, the SF has very few actual defenses, none of which could stop the superlaser.

[Darth_Yuthura]

There is nothing to suggest that full capacity, Revan avoided contact so he didn't end up like the rakatan, there is nothing to suggest that he stopped it from building ships.

 

It is explicitly stated that Revan only used the Star Forge to replenish his fleet as needed. He was careful not to depend too heavily upon it, which explained why he sought to capture more 'conventional' Republic shipyards and production facilities during the war. Either that goes to show that the Star Forge wasn't indeed that powerful, or Revan sought to depend upon it as little as possible.

 

And clearly if manpower is going to be an issue with the Star Forge, then the Death Star must also be judged in this regard. The Star Forge is a factory that builds weapons and produces warships where the Death Star is a weapon that demands resources, manpower, fuel, and other upkeep. How would you be able to keep the Death Star operating if you can't fuel it, pay for maintenance, or to keep it under guard?

 

There was once a description of the M1 being the most lethal and unstoppable tank in the world, but that because it used a gas turbine engine, it was vulnerable. You didn't target the tank, but the trucks that carried the fuel and you've beaten it. That is why I would say the Star Forge wins this debate.

[Trench]

If he didn't use it to the full capacity, we don't know what the full capacity is. Therefore, we can't assume how strong it would be, so you can't use it in determining the outcome of this fight.

And yet you insist that the Death Star would win? You have made two conflicting statements.

 

The Death Star only has to fire one shot. That shot could tear through any ships that could get in the way, hit the Star Forge right at its core, and end the battle.

 

Did you watch "Return of the Jedi"? The second Death Star used its superlaser during the battle with the Rebellion, and each shot only destroyed one ship. If the superlaser has the power that you say it has, it would have just fired a single blast towards the heart of the fleet, thus destroying the Rebellion's command ships, and ending the battle.

 

This poll is invalid. We don't know enough about the Star Forge to make a proper argument. For all we know the Star Forge could have put up a giant shield of Dark Side energy to block the superlaser, and then blasted the Death Star with supersized Force Lightning.

[Gob]

And yet you insist that the Death Star would win? You have made two conflicting statements.

 

No. I'm saying that it would win in a battle from what we've seen of it, as in, the power it has demonstrated.

 

Did you watch "Return of the Jedi"? The second Death Star used its superlaser during the battle with the Rebellion, and each shot only destroyed one ship. If the superlaser has the power that you say it has, it would have just fired a single blast towards the heart of the fleet, thus destroying the Rebellion's command ships, and ending the battle.

 

Those weren't full-powered blasts. It was using shots on a much smaller scale, because a full-powered shot would take much longer to recharge. In Episode 4, it clearly shows the power to destroy a planet. If it can do that, it can destroy the center of a battle station, and anything in the way would simply be torn through.

 

This poll is invalid. We don't know enough about the Star Forge to make a proper argument. For all we know the Star Forge could have put up a giant shield of Dark Side energy to block the superlaser, and then blasted the Death Star with supersized Force Lightning.

 

This, I agree with. Again, we don't know its full potential, so we can't say whether or not it can send giant flying Force monkeys out, or anything for that matter.

[Druganator]

ok, the death star vs the star forge, star forge makes ships, ships shoot death star and do nothing, death star shoots star forge and it blows up.

[Totenkopf]

For all we know the Star Forge could have put up a giant shield of Dark Side energy to block the superlaser, and then blasted the Death Star with supersized Force Lightning.

 

And yet.....no sign of anything like that remotely happening in the game. As a matter of fact, once Bastila's Battle Meditation was removed as a factor in favor of the sith side(LS)...the Star Forge became an easy target. Her Battle Med also was what turned tide againt Rep fleet w/DSR. So....w/no BatMed, it seems the SF was very vulnerable. In the case of the DS, even its one weakness required the Force to be overcome (if only as a plot device). It seems that in a straight up fight, the DS (a mobile battle station) would defeat the SF (a stationary munitions factory).

 

As an aside, it's funny that the SSDs in ROTJ didn't have a redundant set or set of bridge controls in the event the main bridge was taken out due to shield failures, as in the film. They WERE huge ships.

[Mindtwistah]

And yet.....no sign of anything like that remotely happening in the game. As a matter of fact, once Bastila's Battle Meditation was removed as a factor in favor of the sith side(LS)...the Star Forge became an easy target. Her Battle Med also was what turned tide againt Rep fleet w/DSR. So....w/no BatMed, it seems the SF was very vulnerable. In the case of the DS, even its one weakness required the Force to be overcome (if only as a plot device). It seems that in a straight up fight, the DS (a mobile battle station) would defeat the SF (a stationary munitions factory).

 

As an aside, it's funny that the SSDs in ROTJ didn't have a redundant set or set of bridge controls in the event the main bridge was taken out due to shield failures, as in the film. They WERE huge ships.

 

We don't know what the Star Forge can do.

Revan only used it as an armory and not even at full capacity to prevent himself from being corrupted like the Rakata.

Malak wasn't the most brilliant one. ^^

And besides, the secrets of the star forge could've been buried along with the Rakata. What we saw as a ship factory could very well only be the shell to what was an extremly powerful dark side entitity.

Something that could corrupt a whole species probably had a great connection to the force, and who knows how that could have been used.

 

AND, the Star Forge was protected by an EM field/energy shield that POSSIBLY could be powerful enough to disable the Death Star and crash it into Lehon if it came close However, we can't know for sure as the largest thing we've seen it disable is Hammerhead class cruisers.