Arcesious Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Concerning marriage laws today, what are your veiws, and why? This thread is not intended for debate over same-sex marriage, because that debate has been done to death already. Instead, I'd like this thread to focus the other two controversies - polygamy and consanguine marriage. Inherently, I don't agree with polygamy, but I don't know anything about the psychological side of it, so I currently don't have a reasoned opinion on whether or not its good or bad. If anyone knows of any unbiased research about it, then perhaps I can form a debatable opinion about it after looking over that information. Then there's consanguine marriage. To me it seems like something that shouldn't be against the law at any degree. Marriage to cousins doesn't seem to be such a big deal anymore, and is for the most part legal at least for 2nd cousins. But then there's the question of marriage between a brother and sister. The laws about consanguine marriage are, officially, in place because of the genetic issues that can arise in offspring from inbreeding. Unofficially, I think that laws against close consanguine marriage are also still in place in many countries because of the essentially cosmopolitan taboo against it. If you are pro consanguine marriage of close relatives, what solutions to the genetic issue of it can you think of? I've been debating with myself whether or not to make this topic, but I decided I'd like to hear other people's opinions and perhaps stir up a bit of a debate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 The risk of genetic disorders goes up dramatically with marriages to first cousins and closer, because the risk of the offspring receiving 2 recessive genes that cause a variety of recessive disorders is much higher. The goal is to increase the gene pool, not decrease it by inbreeding. Genetic disorders do not benefit society, as we've seen repeatedly throughout history (Egypt during certain times, the Hapsburgs). There is good reason to continue to ban any marriages closer in relations than 2nd cousins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 @Jae--Don't forget the Windsors. @topic--if you find what you consider unbiased research on polygamy, post it. Don't think it's a style suited to modern western sensebilities. As to "inbreeding", the only real argument I could see for it would be in a closed political system where the goal is for a small (relative to population) group of people to preserve their power over everyone else. Still, not particularly smart for reasons Jae already mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Not meaning to start a religious debate, but it would seem to me from a philosophical stand point that if we are nothing more than animals then given that "polygamy" is practiced by many members of the animal kingdom why shouldn't humans do it? If one adopts a moral stance, then what is the basis for that morality? Obviously I will adopt a Christian viewpoint which disagrees with polygamy as it violates the sanctity of marriage. Though I confess I'm not much fussed what others do; polygamy is rife in much of the Muslim world, due to it being allowed under Islam. I don’t think that polygamy will become widespread in the west due to the fact that generally there is around 1 to 1 girl. Though there are a few a few examples from history of it happening in the West, not strictly polygomny but the Lebensborn Children are I think the closest Europe has gotten to it in the modern era. Nepalese society is both matrilocal and polygamous in nature, whereby the men often have to spend months in the wild, so several (often) brothers would marry the same woman one would stay to look after the family and the rest go out to work. Woman were much rarer in this particular society. It seems to me that polygamies prevelance has a lot to do with the population dynamics related to the sexes. In other words in a society where you have say 4 woman to 1 man, you may well be likely to get polygamy. But where it is a ratio closer to 1:1 you won't get it. From the scientific studies I have read, several things seem to be indicated; that life partners are healthy - and indeed married couples fair better in health tests than single individuals; that marriage break up results in a decrease in an individuals health. And that an unhappy marriage will keep the two individuals healthier, than if they were to go there seperate ways. I'm unsure of any scientific studies with regards the effects of polygamy; though I would hypthesize, you may well see Infanticide between respective partners killing the others children; and I would suggest increased stress levels between each other, and finally perhaps a decrease in health among the sex where there is more than one in the marriage. With regards consanguine marriage Arc - your cousins hot isn't she? I think Jae has already put across a good argument against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 Well, a bit of research reveals that incest avoidance is an evolutionary adaptation in humans. Apparently it has to do with pheromones excreted from sweat glands. Your sense of smell. For example, the way your perceive how someone smells after a session of exercise. One person may smell like onions and make you want to avoid them, whilst another may smell like something nice, such as strawberries. So, if they smell like onions or something foul, they're considerably homozygous in genes compared to you, whilst someone who smells good to you is considerably heterozygous in genes compared to you. Therefore, if you have a brother, sister, or a close relative, they'll probably be much more repelled by the way you smell than someone who isn't related to you. So, generally, our genes make us try to avoid it in the first place. However, I wonder what decision should be made by a court, if, say, a brother and sister were seperated at birth and then fell in love with each other later in life without realizing that they were related, and then it's discovered that they're related so closely. Obviously procreation isn't a requirement for marriage. With regards consanguine marriage Arc - your cousins hot isn't she? Facepalm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Well, a bit of research reveals that incest avoidance is an evolutionary adaptation in humans. A bit of research also says God said it's a really dumb thing to do for reasons stated above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrrtoken Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 A bit of research also says God said it's a really dumb thing to do for reasons stated above.Curious, God also seems fine with the fact that the human race is the product incestuous relations, as per his own words. Either we can bring up the "Genesis shouldn't be interpreted literally" debacle, or there's some glaring discrepensies that borederline hypocrisy that we'll have to address, if we give the Bible scientific merit in this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono_Giganto Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 For example, the way your perceive how someone smells after a session of exercise [...], like something nice, such as strawberries. ...You know someone who smells like strawberries after they exercise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Curious, God also seems fine with the fact that the human race is the product incestuous relations, as per his own words. Either we can bring up the "Genesis shouldn't be interpreted literally" debacle, or there's some glaring discrepensies that borederline hypocrisy that we'll have to address, if we give the Bible scientific merit in this debate.Well, when you have 2 genetically perfect people at the beginning, you can allow that sort of thing for awhile. The incest rules weren't established until later after the gene pool had developed detrimental mutations. I'm just pointing out that God wisely had commentary on it long before science figured out why it was bad, but if you don't believe in God, please feel free to ignore that part as not necessarily relevant to you. ...You know someone who smells like strawberries after they exercise? :rofl: Don't know about anyone else, but my hubby does not smell at all like strawberries after running several miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 ...You know someone who smells like strawberries after they exercise? Indeed. :rofl: Don't know about anyone else, but my hubby does not smell at all like strawberries after running several miles. Which is evidence to the fact that smell and pheromones aren't always necessarily relevent to humans in choosing a 'mate'. Curious, God also seems fine with the fact that the human race is the product incestuous relations, as per his own words. Either we can bring up the "Genesis shouldn't be interpreted literally" debacle, or there's some glaring discrepensies that borederline hypocrisy that we'll have to address, if we give the Bible scientific merit in this debate. Well as long as it doesn't get heated beyond context. I myself find that sometimes, verses are taken out of context in a debate about contradictions in the Bible... And if this thread goes towards that realm of debate, I probably will avoid arguing about it because I am not an expert on the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vougalot Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Marriage is something that the government should have kept its hands off of to begin with. Marriage should have been left completely to the churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, etc. (or, for the non-religious who still hold it as important, civil ceremonies) and should never have been made a legal status. If politicians had kept their noses out of where they didn't belong, we would not be having quite as many problems with this issue today. The same goes for education. As for me, I can't say I am against same-sex marriage, but I definitely don't support it, either. I have my values, but I can't force them on others. People are free to be who they want to be. As such, I think this is a matter that should remain as is currently is: leave it up to the states. The federal government should not rule either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Which is evidence to the fact that smell and pheromones aren't always necessarily relevent to humans in choosing a 'mate'. I don't believe I've ever heard of anyone choosing a mate because they smelled like strawberries, before or after a workout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono_Giganto Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I don't believe I've ever heard of anyone choosing a mate because they smelled like strawberries, before or after a workout. And here I was about to ask Arcesious if he'd introduce me to this person... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 And here I was about to ask Arcesious if he'd introduce me to this person... He's already got his own eyes on his "hot cousin", M_G. 3'd only be a crowd, and kinky to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 He's already got his own eyes on his "hot cousin", M_G. 3'd only be a crowd, and kinky to boot. If you really want to know, she was a hot girl way back in elementary school whom I am in no way related to. I haven't seen her for three years, but I still remember her always smelling like strawberries after PE class. As such, I think this is a matter that should remain as is currently is: leave it up to the states. The federal government should not rule either way. Only problem is that this solution doesn't solve anything. States are just a different level of government. Even at the state level - making statutes either way is still a sweeping motion that will effect the millions of people in that state just like a federal law would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 If you really want to know, she was a hot girl way back in elementary school whom I am in no way related to. I haven't seen her for three years, but I still remember her always smelling like strawberries after PE class. Lighten up. Was just playing off J7's comment and M_G's "interest". It did remind me of a joke out of one of Dave Atell's comedy bits, though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hallucination Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I read this in the paper a day or so ago, it's about a polygamous sect of the Church of Latter Day Saints in the interior of B.C. that was busted a short while ago. Might be interesting fuel for this thread. If you really want to know, she was a hot girl way back in elementary school whom I am in no way related to. Quoted for lulz 2 da wulz. I haven't seen her for three years, but I still remember her always smelling like strawberries after PE class. Do you remember that time between PE and the next class? The one where you went into a room with the rest of the boys and she went into another with the rest of the girls? She put on perfume/deodorant/some kind of scent at that time. That or strawberries smell really weird where you live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcesious Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 ~snip~ You three are enjoying this, aren't you? Anyways... So are you pointing out that I'm probably wrong about the sense of smell thing? Maybe I am. I'll have to look into it further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Yeah. But seriously, Hal makes a good point. Unless she smelled like strawberries as soon as she finished gym class, before changing back for regular classes, it was most likely perfume.....or REALLY funky strawberries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hallucination Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 You three are enjoying this, aren't you? You have no idea. Anyways... So are you pointing out that I'm probably wrong about the sense of smell thing? Maybe I am. I'll have to look into it further. All I know is that no one in recorded history had sweat glands that produced strawberry juice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Guaranteed to attract Arc's since 2003 (especially if your his cousin ) On a more serious note. To address your point to me earlier Arc, there have been papers on twin siblings seperated at birth, then meeting in later life; being far more likely to fall in love with each other. Then they find out the truth - raises interesting question; in Britain there was a legal precident here Click Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono_Giganto Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 You three are enjoying this, aren't you? ...Yeah, basically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Do you remember that time between PE and the next class? The one where you went into a room with the rest of the boys and she went into another with the rest of the girls? *Jae falls off her chair laughing* *Jae pulls muscles guffawing* *Jae laughs so hard she's run out of air and is now twitching* She put on perfume/deodorant/some kind of scent at that time.Or a strawberry shampoo, but my bet is on Loves Baby Soft or Strawberry Kiwi body spray from Bath and Body Works. That or strawberries smell really weird where you live.You never know in that part of the US. My hubby read a study about pheromones in his genetics class about 12 years back--men worked out in t-shirts. Women came in after the men left and sniffed the shirts. Apparently the study paid quite well for them to do this. Anyway, women were attracted to the scent of men who were more genetically dissimilar to them, unless they were pregnant. Pregnant women had a tendency to pick the scent of men who were more genetically similar to them. I should add that there was no mention of strawberries, or any other fruit scent, in that study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono_Giganto Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I should add that there was no mention of strawberries, or any other fruit scent, in that study. How are you so certain? Unless you also read the study, that seems like an odd thing for your husband to have specified in his summarization. "So, basically, this is what happened. Also, nobody smelled like strawberries, in case you were wondering." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hallucination Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Or a strawberry shampoo, but my bet is on Loves Baby Soft or Strawberry Kiwi body spray from Bath and Body Works. Pfft, communal bathing is so passé, but that's a topic for another day. How are you so certain? Unless you also read the study, that seems like an odd thing for your husband to have specified in his summarization. "So, basically, this is what happened. Also, nobody smelled like strawberries, in case you were wondering." The study also ruled out kiwis, ginseng, and lilac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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