Ft. Hood shooting

[jonathan7]

I hadn't been intending to post here, but Murph requested I respond, so here goes...

 

My thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of the wounded and the dead victims.

 

I second this; obviously this is an awful and horrible event and the victims have my sympathies.

 

The shooter, however; is a different story.

 

I'm not familiar with your religious background, however if it is of a Christian tradition I would urge you to pray for the shooter too. Jesus said to love our enemies, and to be honest I think the kind of personthat would go and indiscriminately fire on innocent individuals who are also colleagues and friends is actually in need of more prayer than the victims; in the sense that he is a lot further from God than any of them. It is of course good to remember Jesus reaction to his Roman killers "Forgive them father for they do not know what they do" or to remember that the Apostle Paul was a mass-murderer of Christians before his experience on the Damascus road.

 

I have been researching the Islamic religion as of late and have found some interesting points.

 

I speak now, as someone who has widely travelled the Middle East and worked in a Muslim country - where have you researched and what have you read?

 

Many tout the Islamic religion as one of peace. In their Qur'an, it is taught that there will be peace - once all people recognize Islam as their religion.

 

Firstly have you read the Qur’ān? For the record I have read the entire thing. I would say it is always very inadvisable to form opinions based on commentaries and the thoughts, opinions and conjecture of others. Especially if it is based off information from websites, which are frankly often questionable in their content, academic publications are far more useful. The Qur’ān can be seen to teach many things, the above is one such belief, widely held by many Muslim's but not a universal belief; like Christianity, Islam has many sects and "denominations" despite a Muslim's claim of them being united.

 

Until such a time, muslims are told in the Qur'an to offer non-believers three choices: conversion, subjugation (slavery) or death. The Qur'an also counsels followers to kill and make war with non-believers. (This site: Jihad Watch is one of the sites I regularly visit.)

 

Firstly, having briefly reviewed that website, I would advise the content is very questionable. Second reading the Qur’ān is a very complicated affair as it says very different things in different portions; the Meccan revelations are very different in tone and attitude to Christians and Jews to the Median revelations.

 

The Meccan Sura, are generally much more positive towards Christians and Jews, calling the former "men of the book" to be consulted on matters of faith. However the Median Sura, which followed Muḥammad's rejection by Christians and Jews are much more aggressive to those of none Muslim faith which calls for them to be killed by the Sword; so it depends which part of the Qur’ān you accept as to your attitude to non-believers if you are a Muslim.

 

I realize that not all followers of Islam practice all of those things. That doesn't make it a peaceful religion, though.

 

The action of a religions followers, I don't think define a religion as peaceful or violent. It's hardly as if Christianity has a wonderful past; general Islamic attitudes were much more acceptive towards Christianity until the Crusades, and indeed all through the Middle Ages, Muslims treated the Jewish far better than the Christians did. More over Christian Conquistadors battered Inca infants heads in to kill them to guarantee them a place in heaven! If you say they aren't real Christians, cannot the same be said for Muslim terrorists?

 

That said, I confess, I am not a fan of Islam, but I think this the most complex of matters which is far too often simplified and stereotyped. I think we would do well to remember that the Islamic terrorists, have killed far more of their "fellow Muslims" than they have Westerners.

 

In the end returning this back to the subject of the Gun man, there are many Muslims in the US Armed Forces who faithfully serve their country, and it would be a shame to tarnish them with the same brush as the evil done by Major Malik Nadal Hasan. Again our thoughts must go out to the victims, and I dare say the family of Major Hasan, it must be a terrible thing to have a relative do such evil things.

[Ping]

I feel bad for the victims of the shooting. Makes me wish there was more gun control.

 

@j7: Nice argument.

 

@Ten-96: Just by looking at the name of that site, I can already tell the content on there is questionable. Honestly, get a source that's completely objective.

 

You're being extremely rude to other Muslims, quite frankly.

[mimartin]

In their Qur'an, it is taught that there will be peace - once all people recognize Islam as their religion. Until such a time, muslims are told in the Qur'an to offer non-believers three choices: conversion, subjugation (slavery) or death.

I suggest you actually read the Qur’an and not rely on the msinterpretation of others. I’d also suggest you read the Bible and find how it too can be interpreted to advocate violence.

 

Personally I believe extremist are the problem, no matter if they are Muslim, Christian or any other religion.

 

However, without knowing exactly why Major Hasan acted in such a way with the current information. I believe it is dishonorable to his victims and their friends and family to speculate at this time about his motives. Now is a time to grieve and support, there will be time to blame in the future.

 

@Below, no just careless. Playing games while typing.

[Totenkopf]

I suggest you actually read the Qur’an and not rely on the miss interruptions of others. I’d also suggest you read the Bible and find how it too can be interrupted to advocate violence.

 

Personally I believe extremist are the problem, no matter if they are Muslim, Christian or any other religion.

 

However, without knowing exactly why Major Hasan acted in such a way with the current information. I believe it is dishonorable to his victims and their friends and family to speculate at this time about his motives. Now is a time to grieve and support, there will be time to blame in the future.

 

Were those emboldened misspellings on purpose? Also, regarding Hassan, I don't believe it's any real mystery as to why he did what he did. It was premeditated and he left a wake of clues behind him that were ignored b/c of the pc mindset in the govt. In that vein, it's not disrespectful b/c both the grieving/support and speculation can happen concurrently. I do agree that extremists, whatever their bent, are a problem.

[Ten-96]

I have read the Bible numerous times and consider myself fairly knowledgeable when it comes to the Holy Scriptures . I have, as I stated above, began to look into the Islamic religion (most online and a borrowed copy of the Qur'an from the local library). Jihad Watch is only one of the many websites I visit. There are numerous others. While there are many that view academia and the publications thereof as the place to go for information, I do not. The internet has a vast array of unfiltered information that is readily available with and without bias.

 

My view of the Islamic faith has changed. I used to believe that it was a religion of peace and would argue with others about it. I'm too old to read one opinion and base my views on that. Just because I view Muslims differently now doesn't make me rude or insensitive. My views of that religion are mine and I don't expect them to shared by everyone. I merely voice my opinion and debate based on my views and experience.

 

 

A lot of this may seem of topic until you consider the words uttered by Hasan before he began to shoot his fellow soldiers. Then, consider the reported internet postings and the FBI's interest in Hasan. You can also consider the statements made by those that served with him and knew him.

[mimartin]

@ Oh, really Tot, you are in the know. You actually know his motivations?

 

So what were they?

 

Was he afraid?

 

Did he not like supporting a military killing people that look like him? Similar to the Japanese Americans that fought during WW 2.

 

Was he a religious zealot?

 

Or was a Terrorist that had infiltrated our military?

 

And yes, I do find speculation disrespectful when the family and friends only want real answers. However, that does not mean anyone cannot speculate to their little hearts content, it is just my personal view. I’ll wait at least until the victims bodies are laid to rest.

[Ten-96]

Many news organizations have been releasing more and more details about Hasan's military service and troubles.

 

Hasan Article in the Examiner.

[Totenkopf]

Did he not like supporting a military killing people that look like him? Similar to the Japanese Americans that fought during WW 2.

 

Yeah, I'm sure a lot of white Americans were really upset about having to kill white europeans in WW1 and WW2.

[Web Rider]

I don't know why he did it and I don't feel right speculating. A lot of people simply snap and this is especially true for people in the military precisely because they DONT have enough mental health services and because of the hardships of war. Very few people close to him seem to think he's an extremist. I am however, that he actually survived. And I suspect that he will later wish he didn't.

[mimartin]

Yeah, I'm sure a lot of white Americans were really upset about having to kill white europeans in WW1 and WW2.

 

Nice one liner, but I was only replying with stuff I had heard on Fox News and ABC News. You may want to actually check out the difficulties shared by Japanese American "heroes" soldiers that fought against their own race and culture. It is very different for a common race and culture than for whites that have very different cultures and backgrounds. I would put it more along the lines of me fighting against fellow Texans than fighting Europeans.

 

Nice way to skirt the question though.

[Jae Onasi]

Maj. Hasan was born and grew up in the US and was quite American. He was scheduled to go to Afghanistan and serve as a psychiatrist--he was never going to see any combat, much less combat against fellow Palestinians.

 

Hasan having PTSD? The man never served a day in combat, indeed was never deployed anywhere outside of the US unless he went to some kind of international conference. If he had PTSD, it was from some civilian event. IF is the key word, here.

 

I think a lot of speculation is premature, since autopsies are still being done on the deceased, forensic evidence is being gathered, and Hasan is still in the hospital, but asking questions isn't inappropriate.

 

Vigilantism is never appropriate. Jumping to conclusions without facts does no one any good.

 

However, if asking questions now on how this could have happened can prevent another situation from happening, and it's done respectfully, then I don't think that's disrespectful to the dead. Indeed, we owe it to the dead and wounded to find out all the answers we can to prevent a similar disaster in the future.

[Totenkopf]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_fort_hood_shooting

 

 

Nice one liner, but I was only replying with stuff I had heard on Fox News and ABC News. You may want to actually check out the difficulties shared by Japanese American "heroes" soldiers that fought against their own race and culture. It is very different for a common race and culture than for whites that have very different cultures and backgrounds. I would put it more along the lines of me fighting against fellow Texans than fighting Europeans.

 

Well, the most decorated Japanese American unit in WW2 was the 442nd Combat Regiment*, and it was deployed to Europe. I'm sure there were probably some German Americans that weren't all that crazy about having to fight other Germans. But fact is, most Americans look like most Europeans, ie predominantly caucasian. In some cases they probably weren't all that culturally different either, given the last big wave of Euro-emigrants were from central europe toward the end of the 19th century. I'm sure there were individuals that may have felt conflicted b/c of that, or maybe they'd be killing distant or not so distant relatives. One of the hazards of being a nation w/a lot of immigration. No doubt the Civil War in America was a source of angst for many soldiers. As for those conflicted Japanese (be they nisei, sansei, etc...), I rather doubt many/any of them responded by killing a bunch of their fellow soldiers as Hasan did.

 

Problem with Hasan is that the act did NOT occur in a vacuum. Much of the "speculation" isn't of the aimless race-baiting kind (ie "dirty muslim" or somesuch). Just as the 442nd proved in WW2 that being Japanese American didn't mean being disloyal, it would be wrong to knee jerk assume that muslim Americans are axiomatically guilty of harboring seditious or treasonous attitudes. It would be equally unwise to assume that there aren't some who do.

 

*iirc, the most decorated unit in the army during WW2.

[Darth Avlectus]

<snip> Jesus said to love our enemies, and to be honest I think the kind of personthat would go and indiscriminately fire on innocent individuals who are also colleagues and friends is actually in need of more prayer than the victims; in the sense that he is a lot further from God than any of them. <snip>

 

While I would basically agree, I'd hope that "forgiveness" doesn't mean that we just simply let Hasan off easy (or scott free for that matter) for his crimes. Kindness should not be weakness. "Forgiveness but not without a price still to pay" or so the saying went.

 

That said, I confess, I am not a fan of Islam, but I think this the most complex of matters which is far too often simplified and stereotyped. I think we would do well to remember that the Islamic terrorists, have killed far more of their "fellow Muslims" than they have Westerners.

 

All the more reason to be skeptical*?

(*: That of being harshly fair and not slanted one way or the other)

 

Personally I believe extremist are the problem, no matter if they are Muslim, Christian or any other religion.

 

IIRC an imam from the shooter's own mosque who knew him personally was dumbfounded, or so he seemed on the phone live to one of those news organizations reporting on this. Members of his own family were shocked. So whatever it was, it was his (the shooter's) own hangup.

 

there will be time to blame in the future.

 

At that point we shall see, then, if all the evidence reportedly left in his wake were warning signs.