[Debate] Starkiller alive?

[Darca Lar]

That's on the Salvation, right before you encounter the Terror Troopers for the first time. You see Juno on the floor through some glass (which, unlike any other glass in the game, is inexplicably Force- and lightsaber-proof). Then you backtrack a bit, take the long way around, and smash through an identical looking glass just as Fett takes her away.

 

Actually I believe its a shield like from ep. 1, not glass. But the second was glass that also acted as a data screen

[Sordid Dreams]

Which of course leads to the question of what kind of ship designer would put impenetrable forcefields between rooms on the inside but would make windows out of ordinary glass that breaks if you so much as cough at it.

[Sir Vougalot]

Okay, there's one thing you need to keep in mind with videogames, and this applies to every single game ever made: Gameplay is never ever canon. Ever. The plot is canon, the non-combative character interactions are canon, and the general progression of the story is canon; but all of the elements that make up the game which the player interacts with and manipulates are purely representational because they are subject to the player's activities. Sometimes this includes some of the level designs, or even the entirety of them. With situations like the one in question, you just have to take the suspension-of-disbelief road and realize that it's only part of the gameplay.

 

This is the one universal rule of gaming. For The Force Unleashed in particular, we've got a higher level of storytelling that supersedes all other presentations of the story, and that is the novels. I'm not saying that the games should be dependent upon the novels in order to tell the entire story (which, unfortunately, they are in some cases), but that if ever there is a question as to how the story truly plays out when the gameplay factor leaves it ambiguous, the answer is to be found in the novels. If it isn't in the novels, then it's up to your own imagination.

[Mandalorian Mercenary]

It'd be kind've nice if everything was destructible, just cut your way through the whole starship But then the game would be over in less than 30 minutes..

[gallandro]

If we follow the George Lucas rule of "If it didn't happen on-screen, it didn't happen," then it's completely possible he's alive. The only evidence to the contrary is that Vader and Palpatine said he was dead about 30 seconds after the explosion.

 

One deep breath, followed by a, "Lord Vader, he lives still! Perhaps we can use this to our advantage" and we're completely back on track.

[Sir Vougalot]

George Lucas doesn't really adhere to that philosophy, though. He says it, but then he turns around and reveals something that happened off-screen. What he really means is, "If happened on-screen, or if I say it happened, it happened."

[Sordid Dreams]

Well yeah, but who pays any attention to what George says anymore?

[gallandro]

Well yeah, but who pays any attention to what George says anymore?

 

Ha. Fair point.

 

My only point was that the book in no way can be considered proof that he died. I mean, in the Empire Strikes Back novel, Yoda is a 12" tall purple elf with long white hair.

[Sordid Dreams]

What? Seriously?

[Sir Vougalot]

It's not the same thing. The movie novelizations were adaptations of early versions of the scripts, when things weren't very clear, so the films take precedence over their novel counterparts. The same isn't true with The Force Unleashed, where both the game and the novel technically exist on the same level of canon ("C-Canon," to be exact). However, it has been said (either by the development team of Leland Chee at the Holocron Community, I can't remember which; possibly both) that the novels take priority over the games. So where there is a contradiction, we are to look to the novels first to see the way things "really" happened, and any additional info from the games is only canon if it can fit in with the events in the novels without contradicting them. (That, plus what I said in another thread about gameplay never being canon, ever).

 

For example: In the first novel, PROXY is possessed by the Core--the collective consciousness of the planet Raxus Prime--when he fights Starkiller. In the game, however, he's simply seizing the opportunity to achieve his primary function (which I was a bit disappointed to discover that it wasn't like the novel, personally). In this case, the novel's account is "truer" than the game's. In fact, the novelization of the second game references this event as it was told in the first novel, rather than the first game.

 

However, if there is a retcon at play, then yes, all of this information can certainly be overridden. However, I believe all of this Starkiller-isn't-really-a-clone business is just a bunch of fan wanking, and the Occam's Razor explanation is what is a play here: that he is indeed a clone.

[gallandro]

It's not the same thing. The movie novelizations were adaptations of early versions of the scripts, when things weren't very clear, so the films take precedence over their novel counterparts. The same isn't true with The Force Unleashed, where both the game and the novel technically exist on the same level of canon ("C-Canon," to be exact). However, it has been said (either by the development team of Leland Chee at the Holocron Community, I can't remember which; possibly both) that the novels take priority over the games. So where there is a contradiction, we are to look to the novels first to see the way things "really" happened, and any additional info from the games is only canon if it can fit in with the events in the novels without contradicting them. (That, plus what I said in another thread about gameplay never being canon, ever).

 

For example: In the first novel, PROXY is possessed by the Core--the collective consciousness of the planet Raxus Prime--when he fights Starkiller. In the game, however, he's simply seizing the opportunity to achieve his primary function (which I was a bit disappointed to discover that it wasn't like the novel, personally). In this case, the novel's account is "truer" than the game's. In fact, the novelization of the second game references this event as it was told in the first novel, rather than the first game.

 

However, if there is a retcon at play, then yes, all of this information can certainly be overridden. However, I believe all of this Starkiller-isn't-really-a-clone business is just a bunch of fan wanking, and the Occam's Razor explanation is what is a play here: that he is indeed a clone.

 

Good point, although I disagree. Not with the facts of your statements, but with the implication. No matter what the developers have said, for 3 decades now, there has been one flat rule with Star Wars products: If it didn't happen on a screen, it didn't happen. Until the Force Unleashed, video games were excluded, but this game was specifically declared canon, which changes the rules, and if they later decide the game's ending was the ending, it's not entirely invalid. It wouldn't be a retcon, as this is new territory. If they want to change their minds and say the game itself was the "true" canon, there's no rule saying they can't.

 

I also disagree (respectfully) about the fan wanking. They purposely created it as a mystery in the context of the story. This isn't a "Boba Fett survived" thing. This is a fundamental plot element to the point that main characters declare he can't possibly be a clone because force users can't be cloned. It's not fan wanking when the story deliberately sets it up as a mystery. It's perfectly reasonable and fair speculation. It's actually a fundamental part of the story itself, in the book and the game. I can't see - in any connotation - how that could be considered fan wanking.

 

My personal belief is that he's not a clone. Not because that's what I want to happen (I personally hoped the sequel would be about a new character, as I felt the Force Unleashed story was complete with the first game). But since they didn't go that route, I think he's not a clone for two reasons:

 

1. Since this is now part of the official Star Wars saga, it would throw a massive hydrospanner into the works in regards to episodes IV, V, and VI. If Vader and the Emperor have perfected cloning, there's simply no way I think it can be explained away that they never tried it again, considering they have infinite resources. Luke should have been fighting twenty Palpatines. A hundred. I think the trilogy will motivate them - from a story standpoint - to make it so Starkiller is the real deal, and they'll find a way to conveniently get rid of him.

 

The only other option I can think of is if they decide to declare that only the first game/book was canon and the rest is just an offshoot reality. If that's the case, all my theories are void.

 

2. Kota. His absolute confidence that Starkiller isn't a clone is guided by his logic, but also because the force told him (in the book and I think in the game). I think the inclusion of magic (the force) is the single strongest indicator that he will be Starkiller. Kota has yet to be wrong, that I recall.

 

So far they have (barely) managed to tell a genuinely good story without directly contradicting the events of the movies. If Starkiller is a clone, they'll have a much, much more difficult time doing this (IMO).

[gallandro]

What? Seriously?

 

Yup. Tiny, purple elf.

 

But to be fair, Zerimar is correct in that those novelizations are based on early screenplays.

 

That aside, I definitely recommend them. In Return of the Jedi, the unspoken interaction between Luke and the Emperor during the final confrontation is really, really cool.

[Sir Vougalot]

That it is, and I couldn't help but notice that it retroactively feels like a reference to Yoda's and Sidious' battle in Revenge of the Sith.

 

The "if-it-didn't-happen-on-screen-it-didn't-happen" rule corresponds only to the films themselves (which, as I mentioned, has the unfortunate unspoken addition of "It also happened if George Lucas said so"). This isn't the same as video games. Yes, the game has been declared canon, but it wasn't the first time; almost all Star Wars games are canon. C-Canon, that is. The films are G-Canon. Even if George Lucas pointedly declares that he considers the events of a certain game, novel or comic book to have "truly occurred" within his universe, it doesn't automatically elevate that piece of media to G-Canon (because he's also made the same declaration about Knights of the Old Republic as well as the Dark Empire comic series, the latter of which he would later come to denounce).

 

So just because something has George Lucas' stamp of approval doesn't automatically put it on the same level of canonicity as the movies. After all, Lucas has the notorious habit of going back on his word and contradicting those stories, or even flat-out disowning them.

 

Further, how can The Force Unleashed possibly be G-Canon if Lucas' own animated television series, The Clone Wars, isn't even that high? (It's on it's own level: "T-Canon," which a new category and the second highest, between G and C.)

 

Yes, The Force Unleashed is canon, but in the same sense that the rest of the Expanded Universe is canon.

 

As for your points about Starkiller, they are fairly convincing, except for one small factor: the Dark Apprentice from the dark side ending and the "Distant Thunder" videos. Now, there's a perfect clone of a Force user, as Vader stated. They can't both be the real Starkiller. (And let's not get into the whole debate over whether or not the Dark Apprentice truly exists despite the non-canon ending. I've made this argument at length in the past. In short, the only logical conclusion is that he does exist.)

[Sordid Dreams]

Gawd. C-canon? T-canon? G-canon? And I get told off for taking this stuff too seriously?

 

As for your points about Starkiller, they are fairly convincing, except for one small factor: the Dark Apprentice from the dark side ending and the "Distant Thunder" videos. Now, there's a perfect clone of a Force user, as Vader stated.

Considering how little we've seen of him, I wouldn't make such a bold statement. If Vader was telling the truth and imperfect clones eventually go insane, he may well turn out to be unstable. Maybe his insanity just manifests later. Indeed, being able to suppress memories and convince himself that he's somebody else than he remembers would make him pretty damn crazy in my book.

Alternately, of course, he may actually be the real Starkiller, whom Vader managed to convince that he's a clone. The protagonist would then be just another clone, and indeed towards the end he does seem to become more unstable and obsessed, and experiences hallucinations complete with hearing voices.

[gallandro]

That it is, and I couldn't help but notice that it retroactively feels like a reference to Yoda's and Sidious' battle in Revenge of the Sith.

 

The "if-it-didn't-happen-on-screen-it-didn't-happen" rule corresponds only to the films themselves (which, as I mentioned, has the unfortunate unspoken addition of "It also happened if George Lucas said so"). This isn't the same as video games. Yes, the game has been declared canon, but it wasn't the first time; almost all Star Wars games are canon. C-Canon, that is. The films are G-Canon. Even if George Lucas pointedly declares that he considers the events of a certain game, novel or comic book to have "truly occurred" within his universe, it doesn't automatically elevate that piece of media to G-Canon (because he's also made the same declaration about Knights of the Old Republic as well as the Dark Empire comic series, the latter of which he would later come to denounce).

 

So just because something has George Lucas' stamp of approval doesn't automatically put it on the same level of canonicity as the movies. After all, Lucas has the notorious habit of going back on his word and contradicting those stories, or even flat-out disowning them.

 

Further, how can The Force Unleashed possibly be G-Canon if Lucas' own animated television series, The Clone Wars, isn't even that high? (It's on it's own level: "T-Canon," which a new category and the second highest, between G and C.)

 

Yes, The Force Unleashed is canon, but in the same sense that the rest of the Expanded Universe is canon.

 

As for your points about Starkiller, they are fairly convincing, except for one small factor: the Dark Apprentice from the dark side ending and the "Distant Thunder" videos. Now, there's a perfect clone of a Force user, as Vader stated. They can't both be the real Starkiller. (And let's not get into the whole debate over whether or not the Dark Apprentice truly exists despite the non-canon ending. I've made this argument at length in the past. In short, the only logical conclusion is that he does exist.)

 

Before I get in argument mode, let me just say it's a pleasure debating this with you. I love debates that aren't full of attackery (new word!).

 

That said, I think the distinction of the Force Unleashed is the Lucas did the story for it (the first one, that is), and has even made comments to that he's toyed with the idea of a movie about Starkiller, although he later recanted - in classic Lucas fashion.

 

And as for Starkiller, I'm talking about the story of the game, not the game itself. There is a difference. The devs stated that the "lightside" ending is the actual ending and the darkside breaks off in a "what if" tangent. At least they said that about TFU1. I'm not sure about part 2.

 

My actual position that Starkiller isn't a clone isn't based on my love of the character. Like I said, I wish they had left his story alone with the first game and told someone else's tale with the second. My hope that he's real is because if he's not, it'll be the final straw that - for me -turns this story from a good story to absolute cheese. Just IMHO.

[Sir Vougalot]

Well, I think the new DLC kind of solidifies the dark side ending as apocryphal, because we're shown that it leads into a version of the original Trilogy that is very different from what we know. Plus, the light side endings are always canonical. It's just how LucasArts rolls.

 

Hey, likewise. It's so good to not have a debate end with all parties going for one another's jugulars. I'm used to that from other forums, though there I tend to argue politics, which is always a touchy subject.

[Darca Lar]

Lightside is how they roll. They should make something that of the Darth Bane novels.

[JediOrinDavari]

Honestly I believe that Starkiller was just presumed dead. vader lied to Palpatine and told him that hes dead. But then after the emperor wasnt looking, he had took starkiller to kamino to make clones of him, but Starkiller woke up suddenly and broke out. Though vader did make some clones that went mad. I mean seriously, Starkiller is too powerful for them to just claim him as dead. And in the dark side ending when the dark clone sees the body of starkiller/ The body he sees is of a clone. Thats my opinion.

[Klw]

I can find no evidence that Galen knew of this technique, so I would assume that he faded into oblivion as any other soul that doesn't possess this secret knowledge.

 

I don't know if you've seen this yet, but on the official Facebook page a developer said:

 

(Original Question: "At the end of TFU Starkiller supposedly dies (LS ending) yet didnt become one with the Force...why not?" - Joe Tapp)

 

Answer: "Without touching spoiler territory (I'm not about to reveal whether or not he died!) it is important to remember that the technique to become one with the Force like Anakin, Yoda, and Obi-Wan was something passed on through Qui-Gon Jinn. Yoda even had to teach Obi-Wan about it after Episode 3."

 

Considering that Starkiller was the student of Obi-Wan's student, what do you make of this? Does it help at all, or is it just a useless answer? Maybe he's just relating some handy SW knowledge.

[starkiller1157]

..it is important to remember that the technique to become one with the Force like Anakin, Yoda, and Obi-Wan was something passed on through Qui-Gon Jinn. Yoda even had to teach Obi-Wan about it after Episode 3."

 

Also in the Revenge of the Sith Novelization, Yoda was speaking to Qui-Gon in the force and he(qui-gon) was teaching Yoda.

 

It's hard to understand if Anakin was ever taught this. There is no mention of it in the prequels. And originally, before I saw The Phantom Menace, I assumed it happened to all Jedi.

 

I'm curious where the developers were going with the story. At this point, I highly doubt there will be a 3rd game. It's gotten some pretty bad reviews and was even nominated as the top 5 worse sequels =/

 

I prefered the idea that Starkillers soul returned and entered one of the clones, but I don't think that's what the developers chose, since all the clones had the memories...

[Sir Vougalot]

I don't know if you've seen this yet, but on the official Facebook page a developer said:

 

(Original Question: "At the end of TFU Starkiller supposedly dies (LS ending) yet didnt become one with the Force...why not?" - Joe Tapp)

 

Answer: "Without touching spoiler territory (I'm not about to reveal whether or not he died!) it is important to remember that the technique to become one with the Force like Anakin, Yoda, and Obi-Wan was something passed on through Qui-Gon Jinn. Yoda even had to teach Obi-Wan about it after Episode 3."

 

Considering that Starkiller was the student of Obi-Wan's student, what do you make of this? Does it help at all, or is it just a useless answer? Maybe he's just relating some handy SW knowledge.

 

Yes, I know. That's why the novelization of The Force Unleashed describes his soul sort of fizzling out, because he doesn't know the technique.

 

Also in the Revenge of the Sith Novelization, Yoda was speaking to Qui-Gon in the force and he(qui-gon) was teaching Yoda.

 

It's hard to understand if Anakin was ever taught this. There is no mention of it in the prequels. And originally, before I saw The Phantom Menace, I assumed it happened to all Jedi.

 

Yeah, we all assumed that. The official word from "the man" is that Anakin sort of received a crash course in performing this technique from Obi-Wan and Yoda upon his death, before he had a chance to fade away. He'd already achieved it halfway with his selfless sacrifice to save his son, so all that was left was knowing how to preserve his consciousness in the Force. We're also told that he achieved this, and that Luke merely burned the suit and mechanical portions of Darth Vader, the body having joined the Force.

[gallandro]

Also in the Revenge of the Sith Novelization, Yoda was speaking to Qui-Gon in the force and he(qui-gon) was teaching Yoda.

 

It's hard to understand if Anakin was ever taught this. There is no mention of it in the prequels. And originally, before I saw The Phantom Menace, I assumed it happened to all Jedi.

 

I'm curious where the developers were going with the story. At this point, I highly doubt there will be a 3rd game. It's gotten some pretty bad reviews and was even nominated as the top 5 worse sequels =/

 

I prefered the idea that Starkillers soul returned and entered one of the clones, but I don't think that's what the developers chose, since all the clones had the memories...

 

Anakin wasn't taught it because Obi Wan wasn't taught until after Anakin became Vader. Yoda first tells Obi Wan of it on the Tantive IV, just before they go into hiding.

 

That said, it's well established that Starkiller is an anomaly that seems to naturally come across some abilities that others had to be taught. It's completely possible that he developed the ability on his own, just as Qui Gon did.

 

I think Qui Gon was able to do it because his focus was on the "Living Force." The force that focused on the here and now. He followed his instincts more than any jedi code, and Starkiller lives by that exact same path. I think that opens the door to all sorts of possibilities with Starkiller and death (sadly).

[Sir Vougalot]

Anakin wasn't taught it because Obi Wan wasn't taught until after Anakin became Vader. Yoda first tells Obi Wan of it on the Tantive IV, just before they go into hiding.

 

See my post above.