Arizona SB 1070. The "Illegal Immigrant law"

[Tommycat]

Now I have seen a LOT of misinformed people RAIL against this law. They call it racist(not true, American is not a race). They say it gives cops the ability to pull you over for looking Mexican(again NOT true).

 

For your edification the bill is here.

 

Feel free to read all 16 pages of it. If you do you will be more informed about the law than Arizona's former governor Janet Napolitano, and our President Obama who have admitted they have not read the law(benefit of the doubt, maybe by now they have read it). There are a few things that could have been abused, but there are also harsh penalties for falsely reporting.

 

What the bill does:

-Provides HARSH penalties for those companies caught hiring illegal immigrants.

-Makes it illegal to transport illegal immigrants.

-Eliminates the ability of a municipality to create a "Sanctuary City"

-Makes it so that IF an illegal commits a crime they must serve their sentence here prior to being turned over to ICE

-Makes it a crime to stop to pick up workers IF you are blocking a roadway

-Makes it illegal to solicit work if you are here illegally... again

-Provides harsher penalties for repeat offenders.

 

Common arguments I've heard:

They're taking jobs nobody wants- Kinda. Sure they may take the picker jobs that pay sub minimum wage, however couldn't we apply that logic to slavery in the south. We need the slaves to do the job nobody wants to do. Besides the point is moot when you see illegals working in restaurants, in construction, and housekeeping.

 

They aren't hurting anyone- Lowering pay expectations. As with the fruit pickers, they enter other fields and drive down the pay for the jobs. In order to compete in the landscaping business, you have to charge rates that make it unprofitable to use anything BUT illegal workers. This puts legitimate business owners out of work, while rewarding those that break the law.

 

You're racist!- Just stop right there. I have NO problem with Hispanics coming to this country. I am all for LEGAL immigration. Heck this argument goes way out the window when you consider that even many Hispanics in the state support the bill. If you want to talk about ME personally being racist, well my girlfriend just happens to have the last name Medina

[Totenkopf]

Exactamundo. Esp on last part. I've got 3 nephews and neices from central America myself.

[Tysyacha]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

Thirded. I had a friend, Lola Khatamova, who was a television celebrity in Uzbekistan before her unpopular (true) views on the corrupt government forced her to go into political exile. She came to the U.S. LEGALLY, became a citizen via marriage, and then her no-goodnik husband dumped her via divorce. Originally, she was going to be my apartment-mate and helper if I needed assistance grocery shopping or lifting things. Unfortunately, the immigration office told Lola that she'd have to live somewhere where there WAS an immigration office (aka not my neck of the woods). Lola now lives in NY.

 

I say, EVERY ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT WHO COMES TO THE U.S. GIVES HER A BAD NAME!!!

[Ping]

I think the bill meant well, but people are probably misinterpreting on both sides (hence some of the more...sensitive comments made by the Arizona gov). The only thing I'm curious about is the first thing:

 

-Provides HARSH penalties for those companies caught hiring illegal immigrants.

 

Is that for companies that knowingly hire illegals, or not?

[Totenkopf]

(hence some of the more...sensitive comments made by the Arizona gov)

 

To which ones do you specifically refer?

[Darth Avlectus]

eVerify. Harry Reid fought it and blocked voting on it. Yet Janet Napolitano says they're doing everything they can to crack down on employers who hire illegals. Does that mean Harry Reid is a renegade and acting against this administration's wishes or does one part of it not know what the other part is up to?

[Ping]

To which ones do you specifically refer?

 

I think she said something around the lines of "illegals are drug mules" or something similar, and she made it sound like everyone south of the border was trying to smuggle drugs.

[mimartin]

I have no problem with the law if it is implemented the same across the board and not based on someone’s skin pigment. What I mean if a blond haired white American citizen or a black haired brown skin American citizen are pulled over and cannot present proper identification that they are equally likely to be detained by police.

 

I have my doubts if that type of unbiased practice will be used. I’ve been pulled over twice this year in Arizona and the only question asked of me was I an American Citizen. They did not even ask me for my ID, but surely that has nothing to do with me being white.

 

As long as it is practiced in a non-discriminative way toward all American Citizens, I have no problem with the law. The Federal Government has failed in its obligation to protect our borders. I thought after 9/11 that error would be corrected, but I was completely and utterly wrong.

[Tysyacha]

^^^^^^^^^^^

 

Seconded.

[Tommycat]

mimartin, That's the thing though. It has to be applied across the board. I believe there was a house resolution passed later that amended parts of SB 1070 to specifically prohibit the use to target Hispanic citizens(sorry can't remember that one). Of course there are some who are so against SB1070 that they make outrageous statements.(This BBCode requires its accompanying plugin to work properly.)

 

As to the question re knowingly hiring illegals. First offense is light, however you are placed on probation. Second offense during the probation you lose your business license. You are also to go through eVerify and keep records on all your employees.

 

They also closed a few loopholes that people were using to get around it.

[mimartin]

The first thing that should happen is the police should go to the home of every Arizona politician to check the status of all their domestic employees. Anyone in the State Legislature hiring illegals should be punished to the full extent of the law and made to resign their office.

[Totenkopf]

Why stop at AZ. Lets look at all pols/bureaucrats that are/have been in violation of the law (drug use, tax cheats, bribery, etc..) and do likewise. Goodbye Timmy "tax-cheat" Geithner....

 

@Tommycat--saw that clip a few days ago. What a dumbass.

 

In general, I think a two pronged approach is best. Enforce penalties vs businesses that continue to hire illegals (after their first warning, afterall.....the govt has aided and abetted illegal immigration for ~25 years or more largely through inaction) AND go after the illegals as well. All of this AFTER the border is "secured" and the flow of illegals diminishes to a trickle.

[mimartin]

Go after AZ, since it is the topic of the thread and because if they do have illegal allies hired it is rather hypocritical of them to pass law punishing businesses for doing the exact same thing. You know hypocritical like Larry Craig’s political stance on a certain issues despite his own private life.

[Totenkopf]

I agreed with your sentiment (punish the guilty), just not the lengths you wished to selectively go with it. Frankly, anyone in govt or the private sector that is knowingly guilty of breaking the law on that issue should all be punished equally harshly or equally leniently. Since Craig's problems aren't pertinent to the thread either, I'll pretend you didn't bring it up (though I've no problem whatsoever w/his having been "outed" by his own stupidity).

[mimartin]

I agreed with your sentiment (punish the guilty), just not the lengths you wished to selectively go with it.

Selectively I know 2001 to 2009 taught this country that certain segments of this country is above the law. However, I was taught that those in power should be held to a higher standard.

[JediAthos]

I don't really have a huge problem with the law myself if it is implemented correctly and used in an unbiased manner.

 

At the same time, unfortunately, I don't believe in the good nature of humanity anymore. There are people out there that can and will abuse the law and likely despite what the bill says nothing will happen to them. I have seen it too often to believe all law enforcement officials (police, border patrol, customs agents) will use the law as it is intended.

 

Also...I think it is a little unfair to task police departments, who may already be undermanned and overworked, with having to figure out if someone is a citizen or not in the process of doing their job. It could create a lot of unnecessary paperwork for them and consume their time doing that instead of getting back out where they should be which is protecting the communities in which they serve.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

If you want to talk about ME personally being racist, well my girlfriend just happens to have the last name Medina

 

not sayin you're racist but this sort of 'you think i'm racist why don't you tell that to my black friends, pal' thing gets me lollin every time i see it

 

[Tommycat]

not sayin you're racist but this sort of 'you think i'm racist why don't you tell that to my black friends, pal' thing gets me lollin every time i see it

 

 

Yes, but if I WERE racist, I certainly wouldn't be in a committed relationship with a Hispanic. Heck I grew up in Texas, A majority of my friends were Hispanic(come to think of it I don't think I had ANY white friends... WAIT... I'm racist against WHITEY!!).

 

Honestly I don't absolve the Republicans of blame in this. Our borders have been so porous for a long time. That's what has led to this current situation in which now STATE governments feel the need to enact such laws that the Federal government SHOULD HAVE DONE YEARS AGO! Like after 9/11(actually before, but that SHOULD have been a wake up call). Which as you recall was a Republican presidency, with a Republican controlled congress.

 

mimartin, I actually agree with you. The VERY FIRST people to be investigated should be the ones who lead the state. If they are found to have knowingly hired an illegal, then they should not be allowed to retain office. Hiring illegal immigrants is a violation of law. Our state legislators should be held to a higher standard than even the citizens, as they are the ones who MAKE the dang laws.

 

@Ping I would need to see the quote in context to understand if your argument holds weight. She may have been talking about how some ARE drug mules as payment to get smuggled in.

 

For me the biggest problem with illegal immigration is the mentality we have of looking the other way. Should we look the other way and ignore the slavery that currently goes on in this country? YES, SLAVERY! Many are smuggled across the border at a cost too high to pay back, then bought by others to work for them at insanely low pay that ensures they will have to work for that person for an extremely long time. They are held in drop houses here in Phoenix where upwards of 50 people are held like cattle and under guard. I'm sure it's that way in other states as well. Just that with SB1070 we're getting more press, and people should know some of the reasons we're doing this.

[Ping]

My opinion is that the bill could work, but I get the feeling that not everyone is going to do it in an unbiased manner. That's a rather large loophole in the bill - it doesn't say how to do it in an unbiased manner.

[mimartin]

That's a rather large loophole in the bill - it doesn't say how to do it in an unbiased manner.

It shouldn't have to, there are plenty of Federal Laws that make it illegal if it is done in a biased manner. Frankly I have no problem if it is bias against someone here illegally. I’m just worried that it will be used as an excuse to harass legal immigrants, tourists and American citizens because their skin tone is different.

[Tommycat]

My opinion is that the bill could work, but I get the feeling that not everyone is going to do it in an unbiased manner. That's a rather large loophole in the bill - it doesn't say how to do it in an unbiased manner.

 

No more so than speeding tickets, or any other law for that matter. If a person is caught breaking the law, simply verify they are a citizen, regardless of race. I mean while Hispanics are the majority, they are certainly not the only illegal immigrants here.

[Ping]

It shouldn't have to, there are plenty of Federal Laws that make it illegal if it is done in a biased manner. Frankly I have no problem if it is bias against someone here illegally. I’m just worried that it will be used as an excuse to harass legal immigrants, tourists and American citizens because their skin tone is different.

 

^^Agreed 100%.

[Tommycat]

Course you could just start working on yer thick southern drawl...

 

Keep in mind that at a glance, Native Americans can to some appear to be Hispanic. And I doubt anyone would doubt their right to be here. (had a Native American friend that was told to "Go home to your own country" by someone the other day. It was hilarious when he said, "I can't they put a city on top of it"). So if you went after anyone who "looks Hispanic" it would be pretty obvious.

[Totenkopf]

Selectively I know 2001 to 2009 taught this country that certain segments of this country is above the law. However, I was taught that those in power should be held to a higher standard.

 

If you think that republicans are the only ones that seem to think they were "above the law", then selectively was the right word. There has often been a tendency by members of both parties to put themselves there. Congress has been guilty for years of applying laws to everyone else but themselves. As I said, I agree w/the sentiment that the people who make and enforce the laws should be scrutinized at least as closely as the rest of the people. But to take your example of high placed corruption, you need look no further right now than the head of the IRS (Geithener). However, I'd like to see the proof that all or most of AZ police are racist before I reduce myself to assuming that they're going to only/mainly go after "non-whites" in a fit of racist spasms. Seems there'd be too much scrutiny to even try something like that. Hard to commit such blatant behavior when everyone is watching you closely looking for the least opportunity to crucify you.

 

As to implied allegations of racism, I roflmao everytime I see people resort to such empty "arguments" (ie if you're not down with the liberal agenda, you must be racist).

 

It was hilarious when he said, "I can't they put a city on top of it").

 

[Tommycat]

As to implied allegations of racism, I roflmao everytime I see people resort to such empty "arguments" (ie if you're not down with the liberal agenda, you must be racist).

 

It's especially funny when it's said to someone like my old neighbor(a supporter of SB1070) that just happened to be a legal immigrant from Mexico.