Is indoctrination of children child abuse?

[Totenkopf]

Atheism is a lack of belief in gods in general, but still a belief that none actually exist (ie they don't actually know it to be the case one way or the other). In that sense it is an incredibly simple "belief system".

 

And, while the whole charity as indoctrination thing has deviated from the OP, it might be interesting to get an actual statistic about how many said charities are actually "forcing" religion on the people they help, rather than merely speculating in an overly general way about all of them. On top of which....perhaps someone can explain how indoctrination is actually applicable in these cases, as I'm not aware of anyone being turned away from these charities b/c they choose not to except their views as a precondition to actually receiving any aid.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

Atheism is a lack of belief in gods in general, but still a belief that none actually exist (ie they don't actually know it to be the case one way or the other). In that sense it is an incredibly simple "belief system".

 

And, while the whole charity as indoctrination thing has deviated from the OP, it might be interesting to get an actual statistic about how many said charities are actually "forcing" religion on the people they help, rather than merely speculating in an overly general way about all of them. On top of which....perhaps someone can explain how indoctrination is actually applicable in these cases, as I'm not aware of anyone being turned away from these charities b/c they choose not to except their views as a precondition to actually receiving any aid.

Well said, and a good question raised.

 

It could be said that Atheism is not a belief system at all, rather the absence of belief.

 

As for the indoctrination part of it... I like to think that most shelters are similar to Edith Keeler's friendly home for wayward souls. A shame Kirk had to stop McCoy from saving her, but thus we have a future.

 

In that mythical Trek setting, the shelter was a warm and dry place that offered food and help to those less fortunate, as long as they followed the rules of the place. This jives with my admittedly limited experience in helping out the homeless and destitute. People get in line, are glad to get what they can, and behave themselves as best they know how because they are being treated like human beings, even if a little belief system is being thrown at them from signage on the walls or a brief sermon. I know that there are cases like WCH mentioned, but I think that those are a minority. That being said, they definitely exist, and cannot be thrown out as if ridiculous - it is not.

 

This question, "Is indoctrination of children child abuse?" has no definitive answer to the positive or negative, although the term "indoctrination" certainly has negative connotations, especially in light of many people on this forum being familiar with the word due to their playing of Mass Effect

[Primogen]

Well, I would consider Atheism to be a belief - it's the belief that God's absolutely do not exist. The only 'belief system' that is really no belief at all would be agnosticism as I see it. Not saying Atheism is a religion, but it is a belief. It's just more akin to say, Pacifism or Egalitarianism than it is to Christianity or Judaism. It's really irrelevant whether you call it a belief or a lack of beliefs, you get the idea.

 

Also, Sovereign raising children is a -hilarious- mental image.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

Belief: See Merriam-Webster

Atheism is not a belief. It may be wrong, but it is not based on any belief. It is usually reached by finding it unable to believe.

 

Not to duel in semantics, but belief and Epistemology in particular are my pet studies, and I think I can argue this point convincingly, although it may be overly scholastic in form.

 

Agnosticism is also not a belief, but is a more willingly open doubt. So I grant you that point.

 

I do not see how you can compare Atheism to Pacifism or Egalitarianism... perhaps you can express that more fully. They may be akin in some ways.

[purifier]

Athesim can be considered as a belief, because atheists do believe in some things. Atheists, as well as materialists, skeptics, nearly all believe in some kind of superhuman power manifesting in the world of nature. You'll often hear this power called destiny, fate, luck, chance, or an act of nature from their perspective.

 

Of course athesim may not owe these beliefs unto any god or specific religious creed, but as I said before, athesim can be considered a belief because of the atheist belief in these particular things.

[Primogen]

I have -never- heard a typical atheist express belief in 'Fate' or 'Destiny'. Luck is another word for Chance, and Chance is just random crap.

 

Anyway, I would say Atheism -is- a belief - any atheist is definitively -believing- that there is No God. An agnostic is someone without a belief, as they are uncertain, but an atheist firmly believes in the absolute nonexistence of deities.

 

At any rate, my perspective that atheism is more akin to pacifism and egalitarianism as opposed to Christianity or Judaism is that Pacifism and Egalitarianism are, like Atheism, beliefs but not belief systems, whereas Christianity and Judaism are belief systems.

[Sabretooth]

Of course athesim may not owe these beliefs unto any god or specific religious creed, but as I said before, athesim can be considered a belief because of the atheist belief in these particular things.

 

The atheist is defined by his or her lack of belief in the existence of gods, that is absolutely all. Even if 'most' atheists believe in something, that particular belief does not change the definition of an atheist.

[Totenkopf]

Belief: Definition of BELIEF

1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

2: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group

3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

 

Atheism fits the second and third definitions of belief, b/c atheists believe (remember that absence of incontrovertible evidence for their position) the existence of God/gods is nothing but the thing of fables. They have come to the conclusion that they can find no evidence of said entities existence and thus believe none such exist. Still, this whole topic--despite how frequently it crops up in these forums--is tangential to the OP.

[Tommycat]

Still, this whole topic--despite how frequently it crops up in these forums--is tangential to the OP.

 

Hi. Welcome to the internet. You must be new here

 

Still the topic was about religious indoctrination. It should be no surprise that a debate on the legitimacy of religion came up. I was trying to deflect it a bit, because the reality is that IF their religion is right, it may be more abusive NOT to teach it. I don't claim any religion is right or wrong, merely that should it prove to be then warning of foretold consequences should not be labeled as abusive any more than warning of global warming's possible consequences(which happens at the education institutions around the world) should be considered abuse.

[mimartin]

I look at it like this... If I gave my child a candy bar, that would not be child abuse. However should I only give my child candy bars and nothing else to eat, then that could be considered child abuse. Nothing wrong with a candy bar once in awhile, the problem comes from excess. Do I consider teaching a child the values of the parents child abuse? Not normally for the average family, but that does not mean that when they take anything, including religion, to the extreme it is not child abuse.

[Totenkopf]

Hi. Welcome to the internet. You must be new here

 

Still the topic was about religious indoctrination. It should be no surprise that a debate on the legitimacy of religion came up. I was trying to deflect it a bit, because the reality is that IF their religion is right, it may be more abusive NOT to teach it. I don't claim any religion is right or wrong, merely that should it prove to be then warning of foretold consequences should not be labeled as abusive any more than warning of global warming's possible consequences(which happens at the education institutions around the world) should be considered abuse.

 

Hi. Thanks for that friendly and sincere welcome, TC.

 

Seriously, I just sensed we were looking to get bogged down...yet again...in the perenial age old LF spat about the existence of god, hence why I said tangential.

[Jaevyn]

Peace? You do realise that there have been many wars started in the past over which religion was praising God the right way right?

When you say positive moral values which bible are you referring to? If (for example) you think what the old testament was proposing was good moral values then i'd strongly disagree. But I keep forgetting that the church can review their "Papal infallibility" and change their views to keep up with society whenever it suits them.

 

@ Topic: Yes, it is child abuse. If you're religious the decent thing to do would be to not poison your childs mind.

 

Are you aware that many wars were started by ambitious individuals who cared little for religion, and used it merely as an excuse to get what they wanted? And what is this about warning children about hell being child abuse? If I remember, a few years ago I was taught about the supposed "stranger danger", is that child abuse too?

[Sabretooth]

And what is this about warning children about hell being child abuse? If I remember, a few years ago I was taught about the supposed "stranger danger", is that child abuse too?

 

It can be scientifically proven that the number of strangers you talk to as a child has a direct correlation with your chances of getting abducted and sold off into the flesh trade, or worse. Hell, not so much.

[Tyvark]

I have no problem with children growing up with religion.(Apart from baptism at birth). When people enter the adolescent stage of their lives they begin to think more critically about these sorts of things anyway. Some turn it away and some stick by it. It makes no difference in my eyes.

[Q]

It most certainly makes a difference if the child is sent to a religious indoctrination center that is thinly disguised as a psychiatric facility and deliberately brainwashed into questioning their own sanity simply because they've begun to doubt the existence of the almighty sky fairy.

[TWINKEYRUNAWAY]

Our wonderful civil dispute is forfeit. Well no use into getting on the bad sad of others right? Peace is now, may forever be.