Lynk Former Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Yeah, I gotta totally relearn how to tank in 2.0 too now that the Vanguard Tanks have to keep an eye out for buffs and such a lot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassat Hunter Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Okay, wizard. Teach me to play my class. I am a DPS Jedi Shadow. Tell me how I can get the same DPS-output using *other* skills (that cost force to boot) instead of force-free tumult (as stated, the second most damaging ability). Teach me my class. Learn me how I can improve my dailies. What's better than "Force in Balance, Rock or 2 in face, boot in face, only strength left"... Maybe I need to use my finishing move (the -20% health one). Why? It costs force points. It's recharge is long. I rather want to use it on the strong instead, which is then not possible. That's not an improvement. Double strike? Again, force points. Less damage. I fail to see better. Rock (project)? I just used it, can't do twice in a row. Enlighten me, go ahead... I seriously doubt you're going to give me a tumult-less way that does more damage per second. EDIT: Also I keep reading "classes get new stuff to compensate". Tell me how removing a lvl 30 and adding a lvl 51 skill is compensation. Instead of leavind 20 levels with less skills, for what? What magical rule is there that if you increase levels no more skill can be added, so for each one added one is taketh away? It's as stupid as making orange items lvl 40 required. Then adding a new color at lvl 55. And call that compensation and balancing out. (It's not) EDIT2: Kinda funny you complain many DPS don't know their job and there should be more good DPS'es killing weak thrash first. And just before that said to me I should use a slower, less efficient way to clean weak thrash and move to the more powerful afterwards, fuller powerbar than when I used what was said "more efficiency." Allowing me more powerful attacks against the more powerful too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynk Former Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 If you want to ask anyone specifically about the Shadow, Mim's your man since he's been playing a DPS Shadow through ops and is quite skilled even without using the ONE move you're pinned all of your hopes on. The DPS players I've played with and the DPS toons I play seem to do just fine without them because the players involved know how to adapt. If you don't know how to adapt or are too rigid to adapt then that's on you. If you can't find a way to get more DPS out of your toon when you've lost your crutch move, that's your queue to start adapting. My Vanguard tanking has to adapt too in 2.0 since there are a lot of changes with my class and role too. I'm not going to sit here and bitch and moan about having to relearn all this stuff and spend time and effort having to go over my rotations and priorities. I'm just going to do what I need to do to get efficient at the new system. Another example, my Marauder who uses the Carnage tree has also had some major changes which a lot of people aren't happy with. We have a harder job of keeping up buffs and rage and it's just gotten even harder. A lot of people are complaining about it but a lot of people are also trying to figure out what BioWare had in mind with these changes since a lot of changes were made... NO ONE is talking about the loss of Pommel Strike and Savage Kick (yes, we get TWO trashkill moves) because there are so many abilities so much more important to be worried about that have wider and more important uses. Changes have been made, more changes will be made... everyone continues to try to figure out the best way to get the most DPS or threat or healing or whatever out of changes when they're made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassat Hunter Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Do ops only wield elite or higher enemies (I don't know). Sure, I can adapt. It would however still mean I lose my most powerful attack I can use on thrashmob, which would overall reduce my DPS however you look at it. Hardly "useless"... I'm not too fond of looking forward to dying more or generally taking more damage just because it takes longer to take weak stunned enemies down. It's not really "more DPS" as "lose as little DPS as possible" (on thrash, on elite+ I of course already don't use it, so it wont change before and after)... yes, it's definitely doable. But I ask you... Why exactly am I forced to do that? What possible reason could there be the move has to go from the game? Just so some people save a slot they already have by not putting it on the quickbar? Because that's just the most stupid reason to remove a power ever. Imagine if KOTOR1/2 the least used feats/powers were removed. Wouldn't that hurt people using them? Wouldn't it make less possible strategies. And would it really make any difference for those who never picked them anyway? No? Then why force it on everyone else? You've also got 3 skill trees to pick from, choice in tactics. Why take that away again? I don't know. BW has yet to give a reason at all... I'm sure there are changes to the Assassin too that makes me evaluate over. But that doesn't mean combat gets more hollow if the only powers remaining are no-prequisits, dumbing down combat since you're just spamming attack after attack, and nice combo's that were useful (stun+power) before are gone. I just don't see a good reason to hollow combat out like that, so yes, I do object... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynk Former Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Ops have regular trash too, plenty of them, larger groups considering it's an 8-player thing. If tumult and moves like it really are that important to DPS, I must not be pulling my weight as a DPS at all with Priss (Gunslinger) or Silvana (Marauder) since I never used their equivalent moves at all. Don't really have all that much trouble managing their energy/rage unless I end up doing something stupid like over extending a DPS burn and not pulling back when I'm supposed to. I dunno... I guess since I've never relied on it, it's value is just non-existent to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mav Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I'll miss Tumult on my Shadow Tank and Sorc Healer and yeah don't really know why the abilities are being removed, but it ain't the end of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassat Hunter Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I don't use whirlwind. However without reason removing it I would still object to it. If there was a good reason, okay. And if the requirements are the issue, what about the Sith Warrior's Retaliation? Do you use it on your maurader? Since I find it a lot harder to trigger than stun, since you can do stun yourself, and this relies purely on the enemy. So far my lvl 29 maurader also has no rage issues, ever since getting the skills that make the +6 rage skill regenerate 3s faster and force choke. Of course, most rage-taking skill suck and the rage-giving are more awesome. I only really spend rage on 3 skills (smash, scream and the red saber thingie I don't recall the name off). Energy with the consular is a whole other matter, since pretty much everything relies on it but wave (also stuns!) and tumult. Having plenty of additional power for Force in Balance, rock in face (I still can't remember the name) and the finisher move (same here), tied in with "continues-rock" (yeah, bad with skill names) consumes plenty of it. Makes me happy when I can use 'free' wave, although it annoys most people apparently in pugs, making me limited to just boss-fights (in which it's still very useful). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynk Former Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I don't use Whirlwind much either, but I still consider it useful, the moves that are being removed I still consider useless Carnage Marauder's have a harder time with rage than you realise. Force Choke is used sparingly at higher levels if at all... mostly not, retaliation is used sparingly too, if at all. For us things are focused around Gore and Massacre and firing off Force Scream when it can auto-crit. Smash is only really good for trash mobs, however only really effective when everyone else is aoeing them down too. Generally, people who play a Carnage Marauder all agree that you have to be extremely careful with them otherwise you'll become rage-starved very quickly... even more quickly in 2.0. Requirements aren't the issue, there are a lot of times when you have to use one ability to build onto the next, wait for things to proc, etc, with every class. Some classes need more management than others in this area. Tell you what though, I'll put Tumult back on my quickbar for my assassin and play around with it before 2.0 hits... there's plenty of time before that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pho3nix Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 More revamps are gonna happen in the future too though... don't get too comfy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miltiades Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 I am screwed. I just tested my merc out on the PTS and my heat management is gone. I am about to lose all my dps. This is horrible. They messed up my rotation severely. Can't judge for myself as I'm not on the PTS, but from what little impressions I've read, there does seem to be more difficulty in heat management. Which, if you think about it, isn't really that hard to understand, considering how easy heat management is right now with a merc (I barely run out of heat with my regular rotation and even if I did, I have Vent Heat and Thermal Sensor Override). Still, I'd have to see for myself. It does seem like the skills hit harder and Power Shot's cast is shortened (still almost useless - oh, I remember the day Power Shot was instant). Some people say 2.0 favors Pyro over Arsenal, which would be nice for once, but not holding my breath. Others say they've made it a more effective class for PvP, which would also be nice. We might all have to adjust our rotation and say farewell to some skills, but that's the way it is. If skills disappear or are changed, I assume there must be a reason for it and that reason should be balance. So I'm hoping 2.0 balances out the classes better, then. Fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 If you want to ask anyone specifically about the Shadow, Mim's your man since he's been playing a DPS Shadow through ops and is quite skilled even without using the ONE move you're pinned all of your hopes on.My suggestion for endgame raids with a infiltration shadow is, level a watchman. Leyn'a was my second toon to 50 and I personally love the class as it was my first character than was leveled just for me. Meaning I still consider my sawbones and main property of The Walking Carpets (guild). Leny'a on the other hand is all mine, she is pretty useless, or at least lacking in group play beyond stealth and CC's. I can understand you being upset with losing it before cap. It is a very useful ability for solo leveling, however for end game I don't even have it on my UI. No clue, if it is more useful for balance, but to me it is a useless move for endgame, since it does nothing to set up my next move and it is only good for a knocked out enemy, something I let the tank or raid leaders do. Don't even miss it during dailies because in dailies nothing lives long enough for me to worry about focus management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassat Hunter Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Well, shadows have a ton of stunning powers... so using it isn't that hard. Outright stun. Lift. Wave. Rock-to-face. They all allow tumult. And maybe once I get better gear I may also not worry in dailies (though it still helps clearing stuff in flashpoints), but for now, I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I don't use most of those either. Stealth>Force Breach>Clairvoyant Strike>Clairvoyant Strike>Project. Then use Force Breach every time it is off CD, Use Shadow Strike anytime find weakness is up, and after every two Clairvoyant Strikes, use Project. Once at less than 30%, use Spinning Strike anytime off of CD. energy management, use blackout and throw in a few Saber Strikes here and there. In group play (ONLY) you can use Force Cloak to get Blackout instantly back up. However, solo it will just knock you out of combat. As long as find weakness or 2 Circling Shadows are up, you are better off using Shadow Strike or Project than Tumult. According to Mav, Infiltration may actually be viable in 2.0 for group play, this excites me, but I am taking a wait and see attitude. I have heard that before. Still Shadows are great for SM TfB where burst dps is King. So I have one ops at least where I don't feel she is carried. Also we 5 manned Xeno the other day, thought she did alright there too, but the healer and tank were the real heroes there. : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canderis Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 3 tracers, an unload, one heatseaker missiles and one railshot maxes my heat. That's not alright. I had to get full black hole before I could keep up with the columi geared dps of any other class. This isn't cool. We don't deserve another nerf... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 3 tracers, an unload, one heatseaker missiles and one railshot maxes my heat. That's not alright. I had to get full black hole before I could keep up with the columi geared dps of any other class. This isn't cool. We don't deserve another nerf... You and Hassat Hunter do understand this is only on the PTS to be tested? It does not mean this will be the final version. They are testing it for a reason. If it does not work, then they will fix it. Anyone that has been around since beta have seen these types of changes before. I have had my rotations changed more than once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassat Hunter Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 I hope they change it. And I'm a "Balance" shadow, not infiltration. So I don't even have those weaknesses or clairvoyance. I don't tend to use shadow strike either. Stealth is generally for avoiding combat or cc, not aiding it (for me). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Well I asked you more than once and instead of answering you just continued whinning, so I just assumed you were infiltration because then at least you would have something to whine about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassat Hunter Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 That's cause I really don't know what the trees are called from out of my head. I could only mention it now because I looked it up ingame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynk Former Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Well, may as well put it bluntly then. You're f***ed. Utterly totally f***ed if you're basing your entire rotation around Tumult. Guess there's just no hope any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassat Hunter Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 I don't have a rotation. I just do what's best for the problem facing me, with the resources I have. And if that problem has weak/normal/strong enemies, yes, tumult is used. But I suppose having no fixed rotation is making me a noob, right? I should burn in hell for my variation. I should burn in hell for having fun. Good thing BioWare's on the case of lessening it for me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 i dont know what they mean by rotation? is that order of specials used vs mob? i never done a flashpoint or an op...the group finder never works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 But I suppose having no fixed rotation is making me a noob, right?No, but it makes the game more difficut for you and give you no leg to stand on when talking about energy/force/focus/heat management. So your complaint about bioware taking away a skill is irrelevant since you are not playing you toon to its full potential now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynk Former Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 @ hassat: As for having fun... I seem to be having more fun in this game than you XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miltiades Posted February 26, 2013 Author Share Posted February 26, 2013 i dont know what they mean by rotation? is that order of specials used vs mob? It means using specific skills in such an order that it maximizes your DPS, heals or tanking and keeps your energy/focus/heat/force in check. You can have different rotations based on the situation (boss fights, single targets, multiple targets). In a way, you pick a certain amount of skills that are both useful and complementary to your other skills, and use them in a way so you are most effective in combat and don't run out of your energy/focus/whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassat Hunter Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 No, but it makes the game more difficut for you and give you no leg to stand on when talking about energy/force/focus/heat management. So your complaint about bioware taking away a skill is irrelevant since you are not playing you toon to its full potential now. Meh, I don't need a predifined rotation to see what skill is best for me in what instance. Because, really, there aren't that many (useful) skills anyway. So it's boring enough already as is using the same abilities. It only gets worse with another perfect combo/power gone. Ability bloat apparently skipped the consular? Oh, and only when you're at full potential is using a certain skill useful. Not while leveling, getting gear still? Taking a lvl 30 ability away and giving a 51 back, all good? I rarely played KOTOR2 as Force Lightning everyone. Maybe I shouldn't have worked on TSLRCM, obviously knowing nothing about that game, and being unable to properly feedback it and it's issues. Right? @ hassat: As for having fun... I seem to be having more fun in this game than you XD Apparently. I guess I would have more fun if stupid stupid things Bio does wouldn't upset me and I can overflow them with some blind love ("repair costs? Lovely! New people don't ever need to learn FPs. I love grinding dailies hours at end. You should be super-pro at start or be punished"), but I am afraid I am incapable of such blind ignorance. I suppose I would be happy playing my PvE server and getting grieved just trying to do my stuff because "hey, that pvp person is happy"... but I can't. Especially since I need to travel all the way back on ridiculous large maps. I suppose I should just be happy that they replaced the server screen with an infinite loading screen and I have to manually terminate the game but I can't. I suppose I should be happy I can no longer search "22" when I want to sell a 22 augment, but I can't. I suppose I would have more fun if I can do combat however I want... but Bio doesn't want me to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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