Return to Monkey Island

[Asterothe]

Just to recap: LeChuck had plans for Guybrush to make a chair off him then after he escaped he made a voodoo doll of him to send him to another dimension. It did not work well only send him in the next room. While doing the voodoo he brought up brothers story. Their (or guybrush's parents being around and voodoo doll that Guybrush made working implied they could be really brothers too. Then there's the theme park indications: the employees around, the the tunnels with electric lamps, rail road tracks. They all complete the theme park story and them being there to have fun.  Guybrush wandered off and LeChuck went after him to agonize to avenge his toy.  But on top of all that there's Elaine out saying LeChuck casting spell on Guybrush. So at what point would the spell be act ive? Even during the back story we see hints of eveything being in a theme park, tunnels to Rum Rogers' cottage are like the theme park tunnels (not the user  ), also the cargo delivery guys seem like the theme park employees.

[Goury1]

5 minutes ago, Asterothe said:

hile doing the voodoo he brought up brothers story.

A very good summary! When LeChuck reveals that he is Guybrush's brother, he also mentions that they have a sister (in one of the dialogue options). I wonder, could Elaine be the sister?

[Lagomorph01]

 

26 minutes ago, Goury1 said:

A very good summary! When LeChuck reveals that he is Guybrush's brother, he also mentions that they have a sister (in one of the dialogue options). I wonder, could Elaine be the sister?

If that’s gonna be another Star Wars “parody”, with Elaine being the sister, I’ll be surely dissapointed.

[ThunderPeel2001]

7 hours ago, Zaxx said:

I think trying to explain away Monkey 2's ending was really bad because the people who liked that ending didn't want an explanation anyway

 

I do understand the power of mystery and not having everything explained. However just throwing unexplained things into the end of an otherwise straightforward tale -- without explaining it when you're given the opportunity to -- feels very lazy.

 

I also think it's very unfair to Larry Ahern and Jonathan Ackley to say their attempts at explaining it was the "worst writing" of the entire series. Most fans wanted an explanation, and they felt the pressure to provide one. That was definitely the more difficult path for them to take. (Not addressing it at all would have been easy, so I applaud them for trying.)

 

There's a fine art to mystery. Not explaining things can be provocative and interesting... but it can also just be lazy. Throwing random elements into a story without explanation doesn't automatically make you David Lynch. 

 

I think one of the primary reasons people are so excited by the announcement of a new Ron Gilbert Monkey Island is because they're expecting to see his explanation.

 

[ThunderPeel2001]

29 minutes ago, Goury1 said:

A very good summary! When LeChuck reveals that he is Guybrush's brother, he also mentions that they have a sister (in one of the dialogue options). I wonder, could Elaine be the sister?

 

I don't recall that? Could you refresh my memory?

[ThunderPeel2001]

40 minutes ago, Asterothe said:

Just to recap: LeChuck had plans for Guybrush to make a chair off him then after he escaped he made a voodoo doll of him to send him to another dimension. It did not work well only send him in the next room. While doing the voodoo he brought up brothers story. Their (or guybrush's parents being around and voodoo doll that Guybrush made working implied they could be really brothers too. Then there's the theme park indications: the employees around, the the tunnels with electric lamps, rail road tracks. They all complete the theme park story and them being there to have fun.  Guybrush wandered off and LeChuck went after him to agonize to avenge his toy.  But on top of all that there's Elaine out saying LeChuck casting spell on Guybrush. So at what point would the spell be act ive? Even during the back story we see hints of eveything being in a theme park, tunnels to Rum Rogers' cottage are like the theme park tunnels (not the user  ), also the cargo delivery guys seem like the theme park employees.

 

Given they cut back to Elaine and even capitalised the word "SPELL", I think that's especially important for understanding what happened.

 

 

[Zaxx]

13 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

I also think it's very unfair to Larry Ahern and Jonathan Ackley to say their attempts at explaining it was the "worst writing" of the entire series. Most fans wanted an explanation, and they felt the pressure to provide one. That was definitely the more difficult path for them to take. (Not addressing it at all would have been easy, so I applaud them for trying.)

Note that I didn't say explain as in "they tell you what is going on", I said explain away as in "trying really hard to desperately squish all the meaning and intention out of MI2's ending in order to fit their limited interpretation of what MI is". They were cowards about it in order to please a vocal part of the playerbase that didn't like MI2's ending and that's why it's a terrible solution, not because they gave you an explanation.

 

Guybrush floating on that dodgem saying "well that was a thing" and leaving it at that would have been an explanation too but it's one that respects the idea of MI2's ending having multiple meanings. Something like how Blade Runner 2049 didn't give you an answer to Deckard being a replicant or not in order to keep all interpretations of the original movie still intact.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Zaxx

[Asterothe]

5 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

Given they cut back to Elaine and even capitalised the word "SPELL", I think that's especially important for understanding what happened.

 

 

 

Yes. That was the part that gave me most hope when I first played it. But at what point that spell got cast?  It has to be after they met where the X was otherwise when they met he was already under the spell. The cargo guys like theme part employees and the lights to the tunnels to the cottage in Phatt Island, are other hints that everything can be in a theme park. If spell is the reason we think there's a theme park, then it had to be cast even before.  

[Goury1]

9 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

I don't recall that? Could you refresh my memory?

 I haven't played MI2 for a long time, but I'm very certain that the sister is mentioned during Guybrush's conversation with LeChuck in the tunnels. She is mentioned in one of the dialogue options, but I don't quite remember if she is mentioned at the beggining of the last section of the game or when LeChuck lies on the floor defeated in the end. 

 

Monkey Island Wiki has this much to say:

 

Little is known of Guybrush Threepwood's true origins. As a kid he loved to collect fireflies in a jar. He also had a Stretchy Strongman toy. He once mentioned that he (or rather his sister) owned a dolls house. 

[Asterothe]

He mentions of her sister's doll house, when he looks at the bed of Wally's. 

[Goury1]

1 minute ago, Asterothe said:

He mentions of her sister's doll house, when he looks at the bed of Wally's. 

Does he? I would need to replay MI2, but I'm quite certain that the sister is also mentioned in the tunnels... 

[Asterothe]

1 minute ago, Goury1 said:

Does he? I would need to replay MI2, but I'm quite certain that the sister is also mentioned in the tunnels... 

I finished MI1 last week and MI2 last night to quench my MI thirst while waiting Return and also to refresh the "canon" knowledge.  It does not mean that she's not mentioned anywhere else. I will reload  Dinky Island save and try all the combinations. The dialogues with LeChuck are so critical. 

[Zaxx]

When it comes to the idea of making Elaine into Guybrush's sister I can imagine Ron Gilbert just sitting in a room saying "I know what Monkey Island needs: incest!" So yeah, hard pass, how about Kate Capsize instead?

[Goury1]

1 minute ago, Asterothe said:

I will reload  Dinky Island save and try all the combinations. The dialogues with LeChuck are so critical. 

 It would be great, thanks! If you find the right dialogue option, please, share it here!

 

I'm planning to replay MI1 and MI2 myself very soon!

[Asterothe]

Just now, Zaxx said:

When it comes to the idea of making Elaine into Guybrush's sister I can imagine Ron Gilbert just sitting in a room saying "I know what Monkey Island needs: incest!" So yeah, hard pass, how about Kate Capsize instead?

I'd say if Elaine is the sister, it was to magnify Star Wars spoof, eventually when all this talk would turn to be a result of the spell and these will be left behind.

[Asterothe]

1 minute ago, Goury1 said:

 It would be great, thanks! If you find the right dialogue option, please, share it here!

 

I'm planning to replay MI1 and MI2 myself very soon!

I will do so!

[Lagomorph01]

I replayed part 1 and 2 last year and I can’t remember anything being said about a sister in the tunnels.

[Goury1]

22 minutes ago, Lagomorph01 said:

I replayed part 1 and 2 last year and I can’t remember anything being said about a sister in the tunnels.

 i could swear that I first learned about the sister in the tunnels, but it might be that my memory is playing tricks on me... 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Goury1

[ThunderPeel2001]

2 hours ago, Zaxx said:

Note that I didn't say explain as in "they tell you what is going on", I said explain away as in "trying really hard to desperately squish all the meaning and intention out of MI2's ending in order to fit their limited interpretation of what MI is". They were cowards about it in order to please a vocal part of the playerbase that didn't like MI2's ending and that's why it's a terrible solution, not because they gave you an explanation.

 

Guybrush floating on that dodgem saying "well that was a thing" and leaving it at that would have been an explanation too but it's one that respects the idea of MI2's ending having multiple meanings. Something like how Blade Runner 2049 didn't give you an answer to Deckard being a replicant or not in order to keep all interpretations of the original movie still intact.

 

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think anyone was hankering to play Willy Beamish Has a Mental Breakdown and Thinks He's a Pirate. Monkey Island was always about actual voodoo pirate tales. Moving away from that would have been brave, certainly, but it's not what I think anyone wanted (to play or to make).

 

I also don't think you can compare it to the Deckard thing. Whether Deckard is a replicant or not doesn't change the elements of the story... whether it's all in his head or not (as you're suggesting for Guybrush), certainly does. It would become the focus. I mentioned previously that the whole "is it fiction or is it reality?" thing has been done before in Buffy and K-Pax, too.

 

For me the idea that it's all a child's fantasy is very unfulfilling. And I'm not sure you can have your cake and eat it: Either I'm going to be invested in the story and the characters, or I'm going to be detached because it's all a fantasy. I can't see how it can be both.

 

In the end, I just want a good pirate story, but let's see what Ron and Dave have cooked up!

Edited April 19, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[Asterothe]

23 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

....Willy Beamish Has a Mental Breakdown and Thinks He's a Pirate. Monkey Island was always about actual voodoo pirate tales. 

...

In the end, I just want a good pirate story, but let's see what Ron and Dave have cooked up!

Ron said it will be a solid pirate adventure in the adventure's interview. So we are good!

And Willy Beamish! Oh my , only makes me remember disk swapping. On Amiga you had to swap disks 1000000 times. Disk 2 had something every part of games needed so it was hell. 

 

[Zaxx]

2 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

For me the idea that it's all a child's fantasy is very unfulfilling. And I'm not sure you can have your cake and eat it: Either I'm going to be invested in the story and the characters, or I'm going to be detached because it's all a fantasy. I can't see how it can be both.

This is the part that I never got about people who don't like what the MI2 ending suggests: this idea that the adventure has to be real because if it's not real then what's the point? The way I see it the story and the adventure IS real even if it's only in Guybrush's head since we got to experience it and there's nothing more real than that. On the other hand Guybrush Threepwood is not real and we've known that from the moment we launched the first game so the thought experiment of "what if it's all in his head?" has no consequence.

 

But hey, I was baffled at people who thought that Thimbleweed Park's ending was terrible "because nothing matters" too, meanwhile it did matter a lot to the game's characters and seeing them deal with the truth was the best part of the whole experience.

 

As for how it can be both: it already is both, that's why CMI's need to explain it away was a really bad choice (though you can to interpret that as Guybrush desperately trying to keep the walls of the fantasy up and succeeding). Every single game in the series is constantly referencing the amusement park / circus theme if you pay attention to that stuff. On top of that it's also the best explanation to why the MI world is full of contemporary elements: because it's a child trying to imagine a world of pirates.

 

On the other hand the story also works if you ignore all that stuff, for example you don't have to think it important that LeChuck dies with a bunch of amusement park noises at the end of ToMI if you don't want to, he just does that.

[Zaxx]

Anyway I only have one "want" from Return to MI and it's not related to the story at all. I really miss the scale of MI2 from the later games, I'd love to see the structure of Act 2 (when you're looking for the map pieces) return where you can just go to all the islands whenever you want. Bigger and more complex is better.

[Asterothe]

 

The length and complexity of MI2 Part2 and MI1 Part 1 are amazing. They consist most of their respective games. You can do 3 trials in any order or find map pieces in any order. i hope MI3 will have something similar! Also there are very short parts like MI2 Part 3 or MI1 Part 2 which are defined by travelling to a new location. 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Asterothe

[Goury1]

I hope that RTMI starts with this music:

 

 

[Rum Rogers]

Hah would be awesome! Now that you said it, I really hope it starts with an amusement park variation of the Monkey Island theme, to then transition to the "real" one!