Weapons Debate: Heavy Weapons

[DeathBoLT]

Concusion Rifle - should it be in there?

My view on it depends - the gamespeed Q3 operates on, Concusion Rifle would demonstrate too much splash damage and you cannot do too much of a reduction without its weapon's fire appearance changing too much.. If the game speed can be bumped up I think it might have a place.

 

Rail Detonator - what about it?

I think it could work well.. its splash damage could be reduced to resemble the q3 rocket launcher..

 

Other Weapons -what about 'em?

other possibilities of weapons along the lines of concusion rifles and rocket launchers and also those of the redeemer(from UT) sort? What do you guys think?

 

I'm interested in the opinions/arguments of not just the 'expert scene' in JK(i.e. HDKers, JCS, NBK, DIK, etc. etc.) but also the ppl that play it non-competively.

 

[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: [eVe]DeathBoLT ]

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Conc and Rail should def be in JK2. Redeemer? Know way lol. Think of what a expert coulda done with that in oasis FF hehe. And the newbies already complain about conc and sometimes rail lol.

 

One weapon that was really stupid in MotS was the carbonite gun. It was way to cheap, and so were the seekers. I would for like JK2 to be based on skill like JK was, not on who has the bigger gun.

 

[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: -WD- ToRMeNt ]

[Ice Man1587246496]

Concussion Rifle has been in all the DF and JK games, so I think it should stay. It is a unique and powerful weapon and think of beautiful the blast of that gun will be when Raven gets its hands on it!

A flamethrower would be pretty cool, but not very useful. The optimal short-range (and now even longer-range) weapon is the light saber.

[OnlyOneCanoli]

I think they should keep both. As long as the gameplay is balanced and there are effective counters for weapons, as in JK, I'm fine with it.

 

If they keep the carb. gun, they should change it so it doesn't spray so often. And it shouldn't go through objects like in JK either. Or just make the ammo so rare and hard to get that it isn't as dominating as it was in MotS.

[MaDMaN1587246505]

I never played with a carbonite gun (freezes stuff?) so i dont know about it but i liked the rail gun and conc rifle but i think a sniper rifle with a massive damage potential would be my favorite weapon if they implement it.

[Tre Lightshadow]

How bout a nuke? It kills everyone... NO, but seriously, I think there should be some big guns available, at least as an option in MP. Like those big Turok guns. Star Wars has cool technology, so I want to see what those would look like in the Star Was universe.

[MaDMaN1587246505]

Oh and I also think it would be kool if they put in a kind of shotgun but is prolly just me.

[SAB0TEUR]

OK... let me put my two cents in as a 'competitive' player. Guns and multiplayer levels are going to make or break this game, so here are my opinions on guns.

 

The internet is a laggy place, and splash damage weapons are a needed. In JK and MotS, I generally don't bother to engage unless I have a C-Rifle or a railgun, given the situation.

 

C-Rifle: I say keep it. Its been here since the first Dark Forces, and has always been a favorite in single and multiplayer games.

 

Rail Gun: I'm half and half on this. Either replace it with a grenade launcher, or let it be, i don't care.

 

Carb Gun: If Force speed, protection and absorb can be used together, keep this gun. In FF MotS games, the carb gun is the most efficient, and at times the only gun you can realistically fight with. Either drop some of those forces, or get rid of this gun.

 

Sequencer Charges/Mines: For gods sake keep em.

 

Bryar pistol/Stormtrooper Rifle: Get rid of the bryar. its too slow, its too weak, and its just not very fun. The rifle should be kept, but the bullets/lasers should move much faster. Take a lesson from that machine gun in quake 3. Hit the trigger and bam, the shot is there.

 

Crossbow: I don't think i've ever uesd this in single or multi, and I'm not the only one, so get rid of it. Replace it with some star wars version of the shotgun or flak cannon.

 

Repeater: Keep it, but again, speed the bullets up. The repeater should be like a Quake II chaingun or a UT minigun.

 

Thermal Dets: Leave em' be. They're fine the way they are, and yes, they are frequently used in anything from a last resort to a freaking boom balls game.

 

Saber: Personally, I would just say get rid of it, but since this is a Star Wars game, I guess ya gotta have it.

 

Fists: Hah... thats the biggest joke in JK and MotS. Why on earth would you punch someone to death when you could slice em up in half the time? Pack em up and leave em out.

 

If i forgot something, its probably not worth mentioning anyways, so don't bother with it.

 

sabo

[TornSoul]

The internet is a laggy place, and splash damage weapons are a needed. In JK and MotS, I generally don't bother to engage unless I have a C-Rifle or a railgun, given the situation.

JK and MotS are really bad with a lot of lag. Q3 is a lot better. Weapons without splash damage can be really good in a game (see counter strike).

 

C-Rifle: I say keep it. Its been here since the first Dark Forces, and has always been a favorite in single and multiplayer games.

I've never liked the C-Rifle. I usually play NF sabers. I hardly even used the C-Rifle in single player.

 

Rail Gun: I'm half and half on this. Either replace it with a grenade launcher, or let it be, i don't care.

This is my favorite weapon (other than saber) in JK. So, I'd say, leave it the way it is (especially the sticky things ).

 

Carb Gun: If Force speed, protection and absorb can be used together, keep this gun. In FF MotS games, the carb gun is the most efficient, and at times the only gun you can realistically fight with. Either drop some of those forces, or get rid of this gun.

I do have MotS, but I don't like playing it in MP and I've never used the Carb Gun in SP.

 

Sequencer Charges/Mines: For gods sake keep em.

Mmmm mines I remember we use to play the demo: mines all over cloud city. Keep them!

 

Bryar pistol/Stormtrooper Rifle: Get rid of the bryar. its too slow, its too weak, and its just not very fun. The rifle should be kept, but the bullets/lasers should move much faster. Take a lesson from that machine gun in quake 3. Hit the trigger and bam, the shot is there.

I think they will keep the Bryar pistol in JKII. It'll probably be the gun that never runs out, for the times you run out of everything else.

Stormtrooper Rifle should be more accurate and it should have a sniper mode like in MotS.

 

Crossbow: I don't think i've ever uesd this in single or multi, and I'm not the only one, so get rid of it. Replace it with some star wars version of the shotgun or flak cannon.

I used this in single player. It is a lot better than the Stormtrooper Rifle. But I've never used it in MP.

 

Repeater: Keep it, but again, speed the bullets up. The repeater should be like a Quake II chaingun or a UT minigun.

I agree with you there (WOW)

 

Thermal Dets: Leave em' be. They're fine the way they are, and yes, they are frequently used in anything from a last resort to a freaking boom balls game.

Leave them in. Smoke granates might be cool too.

 

Saber: Personally, I would just say get rid of it, but since this is a Star Wars game, I guess ya gotta have it.

Sabers are the entire reason I play JK. I think the game should focus on sabers as much as possible. There are a lot of FPS out there. JKII has to be different to be a success and I think the saber is one way it is different (force powers is another way).

 

Fists: Hah... thats the biggest joke in JK and MotS. Why on earth would you punch someone to death when you could slice em up in half the time? Pack em up and leave em out.

Fists are cool I remember having a couple of fists only games Anyway, how else would you be able to see if someone is AFK or typing or something.

 

 

I don't think the weapons are really that important for JKII, just as long as they get the saber and force powers good. Good weapons are important, but I think I'll mainly use my saber anyway.

[MaDMaN1587246505]

I play gunz and sabers. The reason i havent picked up my copy of Q3A or UT is because JK has a saber. Weapons are important but as Cann said the Saber is waht makes it stand out in my opinion

[wardz]

I am not sure If I have read this somewhere (on the video?), but the foucs on the heavy guns will be reduced in this game, mainly because you are now a Jedi Knight and you can utilise the saber to full effect.

 

This means that the saber will be your weapon of choice and the others used as an option as it were for when needed.

 

This could lead to the heavy weapons either becoming 'heavier' to rival the saber for MP or becoming weaker in SP to make the lightsaber MORE powerful.

 

Personally I would like the heavy weapons in SP to give more damage - for more of a challenge. In MP the 'elites' will have to become more skilled and think more. That will make them better players but still give everyone else a fighting chance..

 

wardz

[Darth Lunatic1587246489]

The lightsabre has to be the main emphasis of this game. Sure you can chuck some guns in for good measure. But this game is called Jedi Knight , therefore the sabre should be the weapon of choice for most players. Simply because its so lethal if used correctly.

 

I love playing against people who use guns in Jedi Knight. Its force pull heaven. Take there weapons off them and there gone! Then its a matter of catching them as they force run their arse away in fear of my wrath!

[DeathBoLT]

Concusion Rifle I thought about it, and could you have balance in game.. imagine the conc in UT.. a gun of it's power level/rate of fire really throws out the balance of other weapons.. i wonder if it shouldn't be replaced. im all for a heavy weapon that still fits in.. the thing with q3 is that rocket launcher isn't the weapon that'd you always pull out - b/c there are other weapons that have killing power that rivals the rocket launcher. thats what i'd like jk2 to be like.. where every weapon 'cept the machine gun/byrar is about as good as the next weapon.

 

Bryar pistol/Stormtrooper Rifle: they suck in jk, they'll be more powerful. stormie will also have a scope and might be as powerful as the UT sniper rifle.

 

Crossbow: charge it up to 5, get right up to them and unload 5 shots into their face. instant death whether they have 200 shields + 100 health or not. it could stand for some work, but its not a bad weapon.

 

Repeater: I'd like to see it as the q3 plasma gun tho.. its a lovely thing i think..

 

Thermal Dets: make 'em more powerful and maybe have a seperate throw key...

 

Saber: Crazy talk, removing the saber.. it always made you deadly no force or not, and created different aspects of gameplay.. im looking foward to it in jk2.

 

Fists: how would you fight a krayt dragon next time the hutts capture you? although it really isn't useful, it'd just kind of feel wrong not to have 'em.

 

Sequencer charges very useful especially in nf matches.. keep 'em.

 

 

if the saber autoblocks, i wonder what balance the weapons will demonstrate.. if any..

 

[ June 17, 2001: Message edited by: [eVe]DeathBoLT ]

[DeathBoLT]

if they balance the guns like q3 does, I think they could fit an saber in there nicely.

 

if they have to dump all the JK weapons and start new to make sure the guns are balanced, I say do it. throw out the conc to make for an more approriate weapon.

[Guest Krayt Tion]

http://www.jediknightii.net/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000107

 

I much of a die hard dark forces as I am, it is time to start thinking outside the box.

 

There was a Cannon Fodder mod for mots that once you collected the proper amount of energy and weapons enabled you to press a button and setup up your own version of an E-Web in game. Now that was fun.

 

My personal opinion is scrap half of jk's weapons if you want (except the saber). Time for something new fresh, and fun, but still stars. Converting all of JKs weapons to modified q3 engine with minor tweaks = boring.

[NeJJa]

my humble (BEST) opinion is as follows:

 

concussion rifle : really i think this gun is awesome. i can only see making splash fire less powerful and the railgun type 2ndary fire more.

 

mines : NO CARPET MINES

if there is more than ONE mine in like a 5 foot radius they detonate. automatically.

 

lightsaber : just make sure its bright, because hey we all know the only thing sabers are good for is a sign of peace.

 

rail det : hmmm regular fire shoots out a rocket thing with a SMALL blast radius but HIGH damage, secondary shoot one with LARGE blast radius but LOW/MEDIUM damage with lots of momentum (pushing people of ledges)

 

thermals: there should be a thermal launcher or something to make them cool.

 

bowcaster : could have been so cool

if im playing DM and i dont have conc or rail ( yeah right ) i always use this gun.

instead of just the 5 shot spread, use the UT rocket launcher idea of holding down alt fire while primary is cahrging, and shoot all 5 blasts in a cluster. MUCHO DAMAGE VOILA!

 

repeater: like i said before, instead of the 3 shot spread, shoot 3 bullets that weave in and out of eachother in a triangle pattern, so it can be effective at medium range too.

 

strifle;

 

for gods sake make it instant hit.

how about and alternate ACCURATE fire that goes slower.

 

 

and deathbolt for making this topic you get free cookies for 1 day.

 

 

[Luck]

It depends on what the multiplayer maps look like.

 

Open spaces=lots of long distance splash weapons, conc would be good for a lvl as open as canyon oasis.

 

Rail's better for more enclosed fighting, a lot like the rocket launcher in q3. Actually, its almost exactly like the rocket launcher in q3 just a lil more powerful.

 

in q3, their rail gun, is precisely like the 2ndary fire for the conc. Thought i'd toss that out there.

 

I like the idea of homoginizing the weapons a lil bit. Make their FUNCTION *more* important than the ammount they can blow you to bits.

 

But, it looks like we're gonna have much more open space than in q3, so the balance of q3 isn't going to apply here too much. The balance of JK is a lot more applicable. It's tough to kill someone who knows what they're doin with a rail from across canyon oasis. Conc shot travels fast enough tho, so its a lil eassier =P

 

So i'd use, long distance fast moving splash for far off, + blasters, cause they seem to be moving pretty fast now, and if they're powerful enough you could spray em around. I'd also keep blasters and slow moving 1 hit gib explosives like the rail for enclosed fighting. Then to tie the 2 disparate aspects of the game together, i'd give all the guns a 2ndary function that would let them be useful in either setting. IE, conc rifle's insta kill 2ndary would be pretty good in some close quarter situations. +the conc jump. The rail gun gives you a bigger boost, so it would be useful in vertical outdoor settings. you could add a grapple to it or somthin. make it a climbin man's weapon =P

 

Basically, I see it as a 2 setting game, outdoor and indoor. The weapons have to function well in both settings, and thats the real challenge of balancing the game.

 

 

Lucky

[wardz]

Don't expect a carbon copy of the guns you saw in MOTS, Conc prolly won't be in it anyway. It's time for a change...

 

wardz

[NeJJa]

wardz i think your wrong

from what i know and have seen so far

they are incorporating new gaming elements but still bringing over many DF and JK traditions. i would be really suprised to not see the conc, not to mention adding raven developers to "the list"

 

[DeathBoLT]

what weapons do u think could replace the 'concussion rifle'?

[acdcfanbill]

well, i think most all of the guns are useful, i think they should keep the concussion rifle, even tho it eats power cell like no tomarrow, it still a part of the game. and i dont think that flamethrowers or grenade launchers would be approprate, because they have never been heard of anywhere in SW. course neither have rail guns, or imperial repeters, but, they are more set to the star wars concept than something like a flame thrower. anyways, thats my two and a half cents...

[ReAcToR]

It was way to cheap, and so were the seekers. I would for like JK2 to be based on skill like JK was, not on who has the bigger gun.

 

I haven't played MotS as much as alot of people, so I may be missing something, but how can something that can be controlled, be cheap? Everyone has the chance to control items. Those who choose not to control a certain item, can't complain because someone else does. The seekers were very easy to evade in all of the levels that had them and I'm sure that most of the skilled MotS players have found ways to evade the Carbonite gun as well. I find that I usually evade being Carbo-whored when I'm in an open area, but am easy to freeze in enclosed spaces(especially in NF). I could be missing something though, like I said, I haven't played MotS alot, although I find it to be a great game.

 

i think a sniper rifle with a massive damage potential would be my favorite weapon if they implement it.

 

I think that one of the previews stated that one of the guns(a blaster?) would have a zoom/sniping mode. I was fascinated by the idea of a Tusken Rifle with scope in Obi Wan and I would be just as turned on to the idea of it in JK2.

 

I also think it would be kool if they put in a kind of shotgun

 

There are many primitive worlds in the Star Wars universe, and I don't think that a Shotgun would be too out of place. Something similar to the shotgun in HL would be interesting. I always loved that weapon because one shot to the dome ended your opponents life.

 

Get rid of the bryar. its too slow, its too weak, and its just not very fun.

 

I have a feeling that the Bryar will be in JK2. The Rate of Fire in JK was a tad too slow IMO and the speed in which the laser bolts traveled were as well. If they were to increase the speed in areas of this gun, I think it would fit in nicely.

 

Crossbow: I don't think i've ever uesd this in single or multi, and I'm not the only one, so get rid of it.

 

The Bowcaster was a great gun in both SP and MP. Primary fire enabled you to kill an opponent with one hit and secondary fire allowed you to bounce the bolts off of walls to keep your opponent from blocking them with a Lightsaber, because they would hit him/her at odd angles. With some minor work, I think that the Bowcaster could be a great addition to JK2.

 

The repeater should be like a Quake II chaingun or a UT minigun.

 

The Q2 Chaingun is one of the greatest guns of all time IMO and anything even remotely similar to it in JK2 would be great.

 

Thermal Dets: Leave em' be. They're fine the way they are, and yes, they are frequently used in anything from a last resort to a freaking boom balls game.

 

They are also a great asset for NF CTF. Good for setting off mines.

 

Fists: Hah... thats the biggest joke in JK and MotS. Why on earth would you punch someone to death when you could slice em up in half the time?

 

I would like to see some martial arts movements implemented into JK2 and possibly even a Hand-2-Hand Combat Arena similar to Rocket Arena, but with martials arts instead.

 

JK and MotS are really bad with a lot of lag. Q3 is a lot better. Weapons without splash damage can be really good in a game (see counter strike).

 

Depends on how you look at it. I get 300-500 ping in JK and that is easily playable, but I get 500+ in Q3 and that means that I'm basically frozen the entire game. I do however support the use of dedicated servers, I just thought that I would point out that there are still thousands of us who won't be able games such as Q3 very effectively if at all.

 

JKII has to be different to be a success and I think the saber is one way it is different (force powers is another way).

 

And the guns are another way. There are many elements that make JK unique. A combination of them all is what makes it the most unique IMO.

 

The lightsabre has to be the main emphasis of this game.

 

I'm sure everyone thought the same thing about Jedi Knight before it's release.

 

But this game is called Jedi Knight , therefore the sabre should be the weapon of choice for most players.

 

Let's not forget that this game takes place in the Dark Forces storyline and that Kyle Katarn hasn't always been a Jedi. Let's also not forget that the majority of characters in the Star Wars universe didn't use a Lightsaber and not everyone wants to play as Kyle Katarn or even a Jedi in MP. The game should represent all of our needs, not just those of you who want to play as a Jedi. This is the way it was in Jedi Knight and will probably be the way it is in Jedi Knight II.

 

It all comes down to this:

 

Raven is perfectly capable of making the weapons in this game balance out nicely. Balancing weapons is probably one of the easiest issues to deal with in creating a game. My only concern about this issue, is that they make the Lightsaber alot more powerful than the rest of the weapons and making it where it can block just about anything that you throw at it. I don't think that is "balanced," I think that some of the evasion should be left to good old fashioned movement/foot-work. Flips and rolls like we see in UT would be ideal.

[crazy_padawan]

I think your'e right Reactor! A good old fashioned "Swing 'n' slice-em-up" was the one (and sometimes only) element of JK that actually kept me going back for more! But I do think that more time should have been spent on the sabre itself as a

'weapon system' rather than just another weapon. Too many first-person action games have a hand to hand combat weapon, i.e; knife, sword, axe or whatever. and they all serve pretty much the same purpose; to be able to cut your opponent up with max damage at min range, smash crates or get through holes in walls! No! What we need is a sabre dedicated system that will interact properly with other sabres! Look at that patch that came out for Mysteries of The Sith: "The Art Of The Lightsabre" now although it was a bit of a touch 'n' go concept, the idea was there, urging players to put their sabre's to use and develop their own skills and moves with it! It might not have been perfect in practise, but with a little time and effort, you could get pretty much the EXACT result you wanted e.g; 'left+fire' caused the sabre swing left, 'right+fire' to the right etc. Now if this kind of concept is gonna get put into play, then just think of the possibilities... No more sad freaks who like to run at you full speed and press 'double swing' all the time. no sir! none of that! you'll actually have to use your own skills with your own sabre to actually penetrate someones block!

Now that will definately sort the men from the boys!!!

 

any views on this?

[MaDMaN1587246505]

Crazy you arent totally off base I think that would be very kool in starwars.

[Wilhuf]

concussion rifle - It appears in both DF1, JK and MotS. Concussion rifle should appear in Jedi Outcast, carrying the tradition as a powerful weapon. Secondary fire graphics effect should be ramped up to give sniper mode more oomph. Projectile speed, damage, or concussion radius will have to be reduced if the overall game tempo is slower.

 

rail detonator What does this weapon have that concussion doesn't have? Not alot, but we can fire rounds into the ground and stick a few rounds into our enemy, different damage and firing rates. And unload seekers in MotS. Good all purpose rocket launcher. I'd drop the seeker rounds in Jedi Outcast though.

 

Imperial Repeater Raven should ramp up the damage and rate of fire on this weapon, and attach a thermal detonator launcher to it for secondary fire. Make it a dual machinegun/grenade launcher weapon. Imperials would issue a weapon like that.

 

carbonite rifle Fun to use. Raven should keep the carbonite rifle, but ramp up the number of rounds required to freeze your opponent, or reduce the rate of fire if Jedi Outcast tempo is slower than jk/mots. Consider making carbonite collision detection server-side instead of client-side. Stun baton may make this weapon redundant.

 

wookie bowcaster Ramp up this weapon considerably. Primary fire could fire bouncing, deflecting rounds. Damage should be greater than in the original jk/mots to make it viable. Make it more shotgun-like for close quarters battle: Secondary fire could be a hitscan 'shotgun' blast of energy.

 

imperial issue blaster rifle Ramp up the damage per round, include a hitscan zoom/sniper mode. Might be good to make the weapon entirely hitscan.

 

stun baton if this immobilizes its target, then there won't be much need for a carbonite rifle.

 

bryar pistol default spawn weapon. Make it hitscan to give a fresh-spawned player half a chance to survive long enough to get a more powerful weapon.

 

 

lightsaber beef up the damage, add a just a few more combination attacks. But keep it simple. Also lightsaber should block concussion rifle rounds. Film canon (Ep 1) shows Jedi Knights blocking blaster cannon fire. If the saber will dish out more damage and deflect concussion rounds it'll have more respect. This doesn't mean the saber deflects concussion explosion so of course you could still get splashed. But if the round fires directly at you, there is a chance the round will be deflected back to the sender.

 

sequencers keep em they're fun. May have to limit the number than can be placed if the overall game tempo is reduced.

 

In general: make the weapons other than Concussion and Rail more powerful. Give us a reason to use a different weapon than concussion rifle and rail detonator.

 

[ June 18, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ]