no automapping

[Bartolo_JCS]

to me, I think

[digl]

now it makes more sense

[Bartolo_JCS]

hello Wilhuf! welcome back!

[StephenG]

Originally posted by Wilhuf

It is confirmed in the FAQ there will be no overhead map.

 

... Reminds of the good old days gone by... many first person shooters had an automap feature. JK/MotS, the doom series, Outlaws, Heretic, etc.

 

The overhead map will be missed.

 

before, before! quite living in the past man, your living in the past!

[Vagabond]

Sorry, digl, I was referring to Bartolo_JCS.

 

StephenG, one does not discard good ideas from the past simply because they are not new. Otherwise one might consider not walking upright any longer, as that's so yesterday, and start scooting around on one's belly. Suit yourself if change is your goal. But if your aim is to keep alive the successful concepts of the past, then one would be wise to not be so dismissive of history.

[StephenG]

Originally posted by Vagabond

Sorry, digl, I was referring to Bartolo_JCS.

 

StephenG, one does not discard good ideas from the past simply because they are not new. Otherwise one might consider not walking upright any longer, as that's so yesterday, and start scooting around on one's belly. Suit yourself if change is your goal. But if your aim is to keep alive the successful concepts of the past, then one would be wise to not be so dismissive of history.

 

it was a joke. i got it from the Simpsons. you know the part when beer is no longer allowed and homer starts making his own beer.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

OMG GAY! No automap is bad news. Yes it was kinda pointless in SP but it was in reality the most useful power in FF MP. Without it, JK2 is looking more like Q3 with a lightsaber. Seeing+map, force powers (not the useless newbie ones), and map design (BGJ and Oasis, not the newbie ones) made JK differant then any other FPS, so much more...

 

This kinda dashes my hopes that it'll be worth playing MP, I already own Quake 3. At least Unreal2 will be out at about the same time.

[DeathBoLT]

map design (BGJ and Oasis, not the newbie ones)

 

newbie ones translation=

any closed maps that inhibit speed/jump use.

 

[thrEEpaGe]

im going to miss the overhead map a lot, but in that interview it said that the game would not benefit very much from an overhead map, so im still interested in seeing what they have up their sleeves.....hmm.....i dont think it will be QUITE like q3 w/ sabers....hehe...there ARE force powers after all ;-)......actually i really want jk2 to succeed, but going up against a new (well updated, since unreal engine is simply unreal engine) U2 engine won't exactly help lucasarts recent less than stirling record at putting out decent games (force commander, racer, etc...) these games didnt exactly sell well....lets hope jk2 breaks this record...

 

(and if it doesnt, im gonna be a U2 crazy fool!) hehe

[bsbuckeye21]

Think about it: if you were a jedi, would you "force see" by somehow getting a bird's eye view? I think it'd work rather nicely if they had silhouette of the enemy that could be visible through walls. (Sorta like the monitor on the rocket launcher in Red Faction) .

 

The more I get to think about it, we should have never seen a top-down map in an FPS in the first place. We aren't sailing some ship and checking our bearings with a map. We're exploring uncharted territory (in most cases). However, I'll admit that the map was handled very nicely in DF, in that it logged where you were (but not the whole map already) with some PDA mechanism which actually makes sense and fits in with the universe. Besides, I'm not "spacial reasoning"-challenged, or have Alzheimer’s, so getting around is no problem and downright enjoyable. (And therefore I do not whine. ) [Wups, I bet that last comment will stir things up...]

 

And lastly, by Raven not having to implement an automap only cuts down on dev time!

[DeathBoLT]

Think about it: if you were a jedi, would you "force see" by somehow getting a bird's eye view? I think it'd work rather nicely if they had silhouette of the enemy that could be visible through walls. (Sorta like the monitor on the rocket launcher in Red Faction)

 

well the radar effect seems like it would be more useful than simply seeing through a set of walls...

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Ok this is gonna sound newbie, and I hate to use this type of argument but since I think It'll work....

 

A jedi should be able to use the force in some way to be more aware of his environment. That is just what seeing + map does. If you want to talk about being true to the movies I'm sure we can find plenty of scenes that go along with this...

 

- "Do no trust your eyes"

- "Trust your feelings"

- Remember when Luke in EP4 block like 4 laser blasts from the remote while blinded by the helmet?

- Vader Knew that Obi-wan was on the death star because he felt him

- Vader knew Luke was on the shuttle to endor

- Luke knew what ship vader was on

- Leia Knew Luke out off the 2nd Death star before it exploded

 

... I'm sure there are more....

 

It's just like hitting some one by the rails @ oasis from across the map with conc/destruct spash damage even though you're on the other side of the wall and you cant see them. With map/seeing you know they're there.

 

Force seeing + map was the perfect in bringing this into the game. The force should be more then just throwing lighting or moving faster. Without this JK2 becomes a Quake 3 mod where basicaly everyone having a lighting gun (ala Force lighting), moves faster and jumps higher, and has a good melee weapon. *YAWN* I might as well play UT/U2 with the speed turned up and gravity off.

 

I could at least live with a map being set off to the side or in a corner and still have the affects of JK seeing but I doubt that's gonna be an out of the box feature. Having the map in the middle of the screen so I could focus on map and look at what was happeing in the normal view without moving my eyes was beautiful though.

 

Hopefully they'll add this in a patch, because I'd perfer it to be official rather then a 3rd party mod. Some one will prolly code it if Raven won't though.

-

[ed_silvergun]

I don't think that the only way to implement the Jedi's "sixth sense" as it were is to have an automap feature. Think about it. Jedi aren't able to know the precise location of objects or people behind walls/in other rooms etc. Rather, a Jedi can sense the presence of an approaching being or object.

 

The automap was, in this respect, too cold and scientific for me. I would prefer a more organic approach to the Jedi's extra-sensory perception. Perhaps, as Kyle's connection with the Force grows throughout the single-player game, he could develop the ability to sense the approach of other beings.

 

This could be done, for example, by the use of a small icon in the top right-hand corner of the screen. A small flashing sillhouette of a person would indicate the approach of a being. It could flash slowly when they are some distance away, getting faster as they come nearer. It could flash red for an enemy, yellow for neutral, and green for an ally. Two such icons could indicate multiple beings in close proximity.

 

In addition, there could be slightly different icons to indicate a) a humanoid (eg. human, Gran, Rodian) presence, b) a creature (eg. Kell dragon/Rancor) presence and c) a droid presence.

 

As long as the icon was small and unobtrusive, so that you were barely aware of it most of the time, and you had the option to turn it off if you so wished, I think that this would be a very good way of implementing a truly Jedi-like connection to the Force without the need for an automap feature.

[digl]

Both of you have good arguments

what you describe ed is what was talked some days ago about a "danger sense"

In the movies they dont know exactly where the people is, however, when Luke blocks the remote bolts he knows exactly where he must block, so Im not sure what would be the best way to interpret that "sixth sense" in the game

We are all used to JK map+seeing, but If they are decided not to do it, they must do something that replaces it

[Wilhuf]

The automap was fun to use. But it also made the game much easier to play.

 

Which is easier? Always knowing where your opponent is and never being vulnerable to ambush? Or having to hunt for targets without a map, and always being vulnerable to ambush?

 

It takes more skill to navigate without a map than with an all-seeing map. It takes awareness and wit to use cues such as sounds and the absence of powerups to find your targets.

 

The 'newbie' would (and has) argue in favor of the overhead map since it is a crutch he can use to help him find his targets. The 'elite' would say that no overhead map is necessary since he is very familiar with, aware of, and responsive to his environment.

 

[bsbuckeye21]

Originally posted by [eVe]DeathBoLT

well the radar effect seems like it would be more useful than simply seeing through a set of walls...

 

The jedi do not come with a radar - that's my point.

 

This could be done, for example, by the use of a small icon in the top right-hand corner of the screen. A small flashing sillhouette of a person would indicate the approach of a being. It could flash slowly when they are some distance away, getting faster as they come nearer. It could flash red for an enemy, yellow for neutral, and green for an ally. Two such icons could indicate multiple beings in close proximity.

 

Good ideas here, Ed. If we mushed my little idea in here, we could see the sillhouette of the object (just the sillhouette through cel shading tech) through the walls with a solid color indicating whether it's friend or foe.

[DeathBoLT]

maybe this warning sense would indicate which direction they're coming from, indicate how far away they are and maybe even identify them(ie gran, etc.)

[jesseg88]

I liked how in Elite Force there would be maps on the display screens on the wall.

[digl]

that could be used in sp, but it would be useless in mp, and thats when the map is needed, unless there is some kind of danger sense

[Lord_FinnSon]

C'mon people, you are talking like not having automap in JK2 is end of the world! I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here, because if this makes some of you to choose Unreal 2 over JK2, that just means that in the end it doesn't matter, how much work Raven people have done getting things like lightsaber and Force powers to work and really shine. You must take what you get and like it was said before, even some of the newer games doesn't have automap feature and navigating through their levels isn't too complicated... I do, however like that danger sense, but it needs more developing and might be a little bit problematic, when there are a lot enemies coming your way: colourful icons here and there all over screen.

[Vagabond]

Wilhuf:

Which is easier? Always knowing where your opponent is and never being vulnerable to ambush? Or having to hunt for targets without a map, and always being vulnerable to ambush?

 

Were a Jedi a typical FPS Red Shirt , I'd agree with you. But a Jedi is supposed to be able to know where an opponent is; is supposed to be aware of one's surroundings; is supposed to be very difficult to ambush. Note, that I said very difficult to ambush a Jedi, not impossible, but I digress.

 

The point is that if JKII is to be a true sequel to Jedi Knight, then most veteran JK gamers are going to expect most, if not all, of the signature features to reappear in JKII.

 

This should not be confused with prettying up the original Jedi Knight, then then calling it a sequel. No, the core functionality - and what that is can be debatable - needs to be migrated to JKII, and then the gameplay expanded, not contracted.

 

It's a big gamble when beloved gameplay features are missing from a sequel. Hopefully Lady Luck will smile on Raven.

[StephenG]

Originally posted by Vagabond

Wilhuf:

Were a Jedi a typical FPS Red Shirt , I'd agree with you. But a Jedi is supposed to be able to know where an opponent is; is supposed to be aware of one's surroundings; is supposed to be very difficult to ambush. Note, that I said very difficult to ambush a Jedi, not impossible, but I digress.

 

yeah ok, jedi are supposed to know where everything is BUT what fun is that? it wouldn't be fun knowing were the bad guys are all the time...i'd get really bored...i thing it would be like aim-botting in CS. You have to remember this is a game and you have to think about gameplay...i want to explore, find things, be scared, being ambushed etc.

 

Originally posted by Lord_FinnSon

C'mon people, you are talking like not having automap in JK2 is end of the world! I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here,

Totally agree. no automap isn't gonna reck this game.

 

even some of the newer games doesn't have automap feature and navigating through their levels isn't too complicated... I do, however like that danger sense, but it needs more developing and might be a little bit problematic, when there are a lot enemies coming your way: colourful icons here and there all over screen.

 

i'm about 80% sure that most of the levels will be half-life/Elite Force-ish type levels. never needed an automap for those games and i dont think JO will need one either

 

edit: i had to fix some errors. cant spell for crackers!

[Vagabond]

StephenG,

 

yeah ok, jedi are supposed to know where everything is BUT what fun is that?

 

If you'd ever played the original JK/MotS, then you'd already know the answer. For me, it was quite fun. And while I could go into various ways of balancing one's ability to view others and conceal one's presense, the discussion would be academic since I can only conceive of these powers being implemented with some manner of overhead map. Is there another way? Probably, but I can't think of another scheme that would work as the JK-method. Like the saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

And let me reieterate one more time - listen up; the reason for wanting an overhead map is not because any of us feel like we'd get lost in the map. You're not the only ones whose 3D-navigational abilities become honed by playing FPS games. Rather, the need for the map is to provide the backdrop upon which the location of other life forces appear. I would ask people to reread the preceeding sentence several times before considering making statements equivalent to, "But game X doesn't need a map, so JKII won't either". The needs of other games are not a valid basis for determining what the needs of JKII are. Using JK/MotS as a basis, on the other hand, is a much more valid starting point.

 

And in the end, perhaps the reason there is no overhead map is becaause there is no longer any Force See power. This possibility would be very difficult to reconcile with both the previous games, and the movies.

[ed_silvergun]

I disagree. My objections are based not on the fact that you don't really need a method of finding your way round the levels, but on the fact that I, personally, don't believe the automap is entirely consistent with the way Jedi sense other beings and/or items. It isn't supposed to be a "second sight", and the Jedi are not supposed to be all-powerful.

 

In official Star Wars canon, we are led to believe that, whilst Jedi can sense their surroundings, other beings, etc. in a general way, this does not amount to an omniscience which allows them to perceive the very nature of their surroundings and the exact placement of objects and beings.

 

In short, Jedi can sense the presence of a being. That is not to say they know exactly where and what it is. This is why I suggested some sort of "danger sense" which would reflect this (see my above post).

 

I agree absolutely with you, Vagabond that the game in some way needs to reflect the Jedi's extrasensory abilities. What I disagree with is your opinion that automap is the only, or indeed the best way to go about this.

[Agen]

I had an idea a while ago.... actually i wrote it out but i forgot to press post because i had to go to the shops. what about a sense where colours come up and fade quickly when u come near a player. and then u can confirm to the computer u know they're there.therefore knowing they're there but not exactly. mayeb they can give htme specific colours or dark jedi get red and lgiht get green or something but something liek that anyway.