Jem Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 What am I trying to prove? well: Originally posted by Jem You know, socialism is good. Basically I'm proving that socialism isn't bad. Geez don't you guys read before posting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sceltor Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 I like my money, so of course I'm a capitalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tek Gunner Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 Originally posted by Jem What am I trying to prove? well: Basically I'm proving that socialism isn't bad. Geez don't you guys read before posting? haha, but you don't understand, socialism doesn't work. therefore, it sucks. it doesn't matter what it's intentions are, it doesn't work. here, let me make it simple for you <a align=center>Good Idea - Possibily of Success=Bad (aka: not good)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nute Gunray Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 best post ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 You're just not using the same notion of good/bad I am, I'm saying that it is good when it comes to it's intentions. Does everything has to be explained to the maximum details for you guys to understand or can't you just see/study my point of view in several ways and not only one before trying to contradict it... This reminds me of the philosopher Socrate who always spoke but never wrote his ways of thinking because he said that if he did, people would easily contradict him because he wouldn't be there to explain what he meant and what the reader has to understand. Now I fully understand what Socrate meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Nine Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 It's Socrates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nute Gunray Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 Good intentions are worthless. Even if socialism could work in theory, I'd still hate it. I find the current version of free enterprise too restricted as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 Originally posted by Rogue Nine It's Socrates. I wrote Socrates without the "S" because that's how it is written in french and it was in french that I read and learnt about Socrates. Now I will know that in english there is an "S" By the way Tek: the fact that socialism doesn't work doesn't necessarily mean that it's because it's bad. For instance, I previously said that socialism was too good to be true and Nute said it was against humain nature because they are greedy, pathetic and all those bad things, THUS this means that socialism doesn't work because human's are bad, not socialism itself: it is good. And also, Tek, even if socialism didn't work because it was bad that would mean you suggest that the only things that work in life are those that are good and that is simply not true. If it was so we wouldn't be saying "Too good to be true ";) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nob Akimoto Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 Hmm.. Am I getting something wrong or are people mixing up Socialism and Communism again? A mixed Socio-capitalist society is the only way it'd work. Mostly since the "surplus" made from such a society wouldn't exist without a capitalist means of creating it. In addition, I think anyone who advocates a single non-mixed system is on crack and are missing a few screws. BTW the most accurate form of government today would probably be pluralism in the US. Large multi-billion dollars have more say than the normal people do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 Originally posted by Nob Akimoto Am I getting something wrong or are people mixing up Socialism and Communism again? Exactly, Originally posted by Jem You know, socialism is good. It's communism that's bad... do not confuse both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr. Cracken Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 What the hell is pluralism!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 Nooooo! It's a new page! now nobody will read my previous posts which are suppose to enlighten all of you who don't understand socialism and think it is bad, specially you Tek... pluralism = being several/multiple... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr. Cracken Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 ah, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zargon Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 ya know what, its ingrained that ideas that don't work are bad, nto to mention we grew hearing that commies AND socialist are EVIL DEVIL PEOPLES, like the middle east thinks WE are......so I wouldnt waste your time here........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted January 10, 2002 Share Posted January 10, 2002 Originally said loads of time by Sen. Joseph McCarthy's Are you now, or have you ever been a member of..." ah yes, Sen. Joseph McCarthy's witch hunt propaganda lives on after all these years. But technically it has nothing to do with Socialism, it aims only Communism (still confusing both huh? Communism is what the Soviets made out of Socialism, so you can think of communism as an "evil" modification of something that is good) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Odin Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 Jem according to your belief on what makes something good then Communism=great, the intentions were that all would be equal. What does history teach us. That Communism sucks, doesn't work and is terrible. Socialism (I believe Italy currently uses it):ok idea. THe problems in government you have many political parties that run the government. This means no one party has control of the government and coalitions must be built to get anything done, and it is very hard to do that. The other thing is the gov. owns some businesses, and many services are free (like free medical). The problem with that is that you pay high taxes and well the gov. can control your business. Look at England's socialist health care system. It is terrible, long waits ect. Represenative democracy: Here there is usually only 2 parties run the gov. Things get done better, and capitalism is used. Taxes are lower, however health care and other services are far from free. The competition allows consumers to get thing cheaper, and makes businesses try and sell better/cheaper products. ALso it fulfills human nature by allowing some people to dominate, compete, while it doesn't surpress it's people. Anyone can do it Socialism/Communism=good idea, but goes against human nature=bad in practice=sucky=Captialism rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 Ok I don't know how many times I'll have to keep on quoting myself but here we go, again: Originally posted by Admiral Communism=great, the intentions were that all would be equal. Originally posted by Jem It's communism that's bad. If you study well how communism works you will see that it isn't meant to apply a real equality, for instance Staline wasn't really as equal as a peasant (this is a very extrem example) and it relied on terror (Goulags, assassinations etc) to work. Originally posted by Admiral Socialism (I believe Italy currently uses it):ok idea. THe problems in government you have many political parties that run the government. This means no one party has control of the government and coalitions must be built to get anything done, and it is very hard to do that. basically your saying that: Originally posted by Jem And socialism needs time to work, so once adopted they should stop organising votes for other ideologies... So if socialism is to take of in its pure form it should stay forever after it is applied (this of course can never happen) Originally posted by Admiral The other thing is the gov. owns some businesses, and many services are free (like free medical). The problem with that is that you pay high taxes and well the gov. can control your business. Look at England's socialist health care system. It is terrible, long waits ect. Socialism needs to be total in order to work. You said yourself: "the gov. owns some businesses". It needs to concern the whole society. Originally posted by Admiral Represenative democracy: Here there is usually only 2 parties run the gov. Things get done better, and capitalism is used. Taxes are lower, however health care and other services are far from free. The competition allows consumers to get thing cheaper, and makes businesses try and sell better/cheaper products. ALso it fulfills human nature by allowing some people to dominate, compete, while it doesn't surpress it's people. Anyone can do it One of the ultimate goal of socialism is to turn money useless. (this was one of Staline's dream but he never accomplished it and why? because he was in a hurry and it wasn't socialism, pur socialism.) Originally posted by Admiral while it doesn't surpress it's people Here is a very revealing statistics: _It would only take less than 4% of the total accumulated wealth of the 225 richest people in the world to grant access to the entire population of this planete the necessary needs and social services (health, education and food) that is only 255 of the richest.. now imagine if everybody would split it equaly... All of this just to tell you what Socialism really is: Socialism = GOOD but will never take off Why won't it take off? because of the majority of the human's current way of thinking. Socialism is positive but will never take off because the world is negative. You tend to study this idea in a single point of view, look at it on a philosophique point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nute Gunray Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 Actually most of the Red Scare was later proven to be true by Soviet records. Of couse, you'll never find that kind of stuff unless you go looking for it. <b>the point</b> is that since socialism and communism <i>don't</i> work, then even with all their good intentions, they are absolutely WORTHLESS. Saying socialism could work is as realistic as saying my car could travel to the moon on it's own. yes, if someone detonated enough explosives under my car it could travel to the moon, but it would destroy my car and also render it useless as a spacecraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edlib Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 I believe that eventually mankind will eventually evolve to a slightly less competitive state,.. if we manage to not make ourselves extinct before that can happen. We will then at that point be able to come up with a form of government that works on the strongest qualities of everything else we have come up with to date. Perhaps capitalism tempered with a touch of socialism, or vice versa. But it would requile a shift in base human instincts for this to occur, and won't happen in our lifetimes, or even our children's lifetimes. Socalism can work today on a somewhat limited basis, even here in this otherwise capitalist stronghold, as long as your expectations about it aren't too high. For example: my dad managed to get a free college education, just for putting in a few years in the army. Almost all his health care needs are provided by the state, courtesy of the Veterans Administration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold leader Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 Originally posted by Admiral Socialism (I believe Italy currently uses it):ok idea. THe problems in government you have many political parties that run the government. This means no one party has control of the government and coalitions must be built to get anything done, and it is very hard to do that. [/b] Italy, Germany, the Netherlands all have coalition governments. Their policy may have social-democratic features, but they are not socialist countries. Coalition governments are not equal to socialist ones. In fact, I think that a two-party system is less democratic than a multi-party system. I mean, there is only one party more than in a country run by communists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 Nute ok first of all don't mix socialism and communism, communism has no good intentions, socialism does. And your point is, well it nears mine (exept for that part on communism and worthless...) (I wont quote myself oncemore) Socialism will never work: yes I said it socialism is good: yes, I said it. socialism worthless? or are humans the worthless ones in not being able to handle it? I believe the second solution is the one. (This questions should be studied philosophically) And saying that man could one day understand is as realistic as saying that my car could travel to the moon on it's own. yes, if someone detonated enough explosives under my car it could travel to the moon, but it would destroy my car and also render it useless as a spacecraft. but, as edlib said, we never know what time will bring us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nute Gunray Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 Communism and Socialism are the same, regardless of anything anyone tells you. Why? <b>because Karl Marx said so</b>. In the Communist Manifesto he clearly says that SOCIALISM is the path to the establishment of a Communist society. If they aren't the same, then why bother with the one. Communism actually has MORE good intentions than Socialism. All want and need is ABOLISHED FOREVER HOORAY. Too bad that will never ever ever ever work. Socialism only promises SOME things for free, whereas Communism trades you everything in one shot. It's not the US nuclear arsenal, it's the PEOPLE'S nuclear arsenal and I could theortically borrow a nuke as long as everyone agreed. DOESN'T EXACTLY WORK. what was i talking about? oh yeah, Socialism is just a mechanism for government control over things the government and COMMUNISM is the good intentions that would never conceivably work unless you turned people into some kind of genderless Borg drone or something. Good intentions are worthless and always have been. Plus good intentions <b>aren't going to get my car to the moon</b> I wish my car could travel to the moon. That would be awesome. Back to working on my collage. OH YEAH: I don't think I'd count the US military's "pay for everything" as socialism. I think it's more of a "well pay for your schooling and health care if you become our property for a few years." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edlib Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 It may not exactly fit the textbook definition, but it's close enough for me. You do service for the greater good of the state, the state repays by taking care of many of your needs. Like I said, it's a VERY limited form of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold leader Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 Why do you want your car on the moon so bad? There are no speed limits, I know, but no real roads either. Plus the engine won't work because there's no atmosphere. The place sucks, apart from the view, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nute Gunray Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 I propose that the US government redevelop the means to land on the moon. Then nations can put up the money to purchase a Saturn V rocket and design some sort of "moon-buggy." Then there can be a rally on the moon. Observe this artist's rendering (note: artist is not an artist in any sense of the word): <img src="http://www.geocities.com/stormhawk337/moonrally2k2.txt"> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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