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Is JK2 dead/dying? (merged)


D.L.

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Originally posted by Nobodi Kenobi

I have been absent from this game and forum for about two to three months and publically quit the game sometime in May/June.

 

I posted a "farewell thread" where I explained I quit the game because of my frustration with the horrible patches Raven put out (1.3, 1.4) that basically destroyed the base Jedi Outcast game which resulted in splintering the community into over a billion Mods and server settings that go way beyond player perference and made the game boring because of the limited number of choices -- nerfed saber, weapons and force powers -- That a player could use to have fun or defeat an opponent.

 

I still stand by that statement and do not play online that much anymore if at all.

 

I think this is relevant because I do know for a fact that I wasn't the only one to leave the game altogether -- The MP portion -- For the reasons I stated above.

...

Again, while I realize that isn't enough to make a generalization on whether the community is dying or not, I think it is a fair indicator of perhaps how popular the game is right now and even if people don't want to admit it, it is tapering off (as all games do over time)... And I see no real ressurgence in sight unless Raven releases an expansion or other high visibility product/update to get the general public interested in the game again (like AOTC did).

 

You have described nearly verbatim my own "farewell/retirement" post some months ago. I quit for exactly the same reasons, and left my reasons posted publicly in an effor to spur whoever was in control of JK2's future into taking some kind of action to repair the game. It was only when 1.04 came out that I realized that Raven/Lucasarts was incapable of completing the game.

 

Yes, I said, completing the game. No game is complete until the people who bought the game are satisified with their purchase.

 

You are exactly the kind of person that ProMod was created for in the first place. If you haven't tried it, please do. It really does fix a bunch of the beefs you had with the official versions. It's not a gimmick mod that you'll play for a bit and realize that under the surface it's no different from the regular game.

 

It makes the saber fighting, and some other aspects a lot more interesting than before. It really does take skill to win now. Go read the "About" section at the main site (http://www.oculis.org/promod/), then read the strategy section. Find yourself a server, and get into a private duel or duel gametype. You'll see that you're having to do a lot more physical and mental work to win.

 

But don't take my word for it. Just ask those who've been playing ProMod lately.

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Originally posted by ArtifeX

 

It was only when 1.04 came out that I realized that Raven/Lucasarts was incapable of completing the game.

 

Yes, I said, completing the game. No game is complete until the people who bought the game are satisified with their purchase.

 

 

Ya can't please everyone ...

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Originally posted by ArtifeX

 

.It's not a gimmick mod that you'll play for a bit and realize that under the surface it's no different from the regular game.

 

 

If u read my other posts from today you will see how I feel about promod...but for the most part I like it.

 

But other mods do offer things that the original does not and DOES allows the server the ability to increase the skill of the game. The mod that I run most right now is Jedimod v1.2.

 

Under the skin of the emotes is a system that alows for moves that were removed from the game to be put back in. And the ability to change some of the damage skills as well as the zoned damage.

 

Meaning that if you are to slice someone in heavy stance in the head they die...period.I also run always trace saber first, always box trace, ghoul 2 collision and a box trace size of 0 as well as knockback set to 1.2. and lower blocking values...meaning if your swinging you are not blocking.These allow for some serious duels. If you do not know what u are doing then you will die in one move.

 

So please do not say that these games are "just like" the regualar game. True they do not have the + and - system of promod...but more skill is needed than any standard game of JK2. You add in the variety of dual sabers and the extra stances and you can have one hell of a fight.

 

But some nights people just want to have fun and goof off. Things like jetpacks and emotes allow for this. Promod is for those who take the game very serious indeed, and sometimes I like that. Other times goofing off is more fun.

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Originally posted by Sith Maximus

So please do not say that these games are "just like" the regualar game. True they do not have the + and - system of promod...but more skill is needed than any standard game of JK2. You add in the variety of dual sabers and the extra stances and you can have one hell of a fight.

 

I wasn't specifically referring to jedimod1.2, or any of the other mods. I was only trying to differentiate ProMod from the average mod you'll find in the jkii.net files section.

 

You're right, jm1.2 is great for goofing off with the emotes and such. Some of the more role-play-style jk2'ers have told me they use it for that reason. I can understand that. Nobodi Kenobi doesn't sound like he runs with that crowd. I was attempting to tell him that ProMod concentrates on substantive gameplay, which is what he seems to crave.

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Originally posted by Sith Maximus

 

So please do not say that these games are "just like" the regualar game. True they do not have the + and - system of promod...but more skill is needed than any standard game of JK2. You add in the variety of dual sabers and the extra stances and you can have one hell of a fight.

 

ProMod changes the way the game "feels" not just the way it "looks"

 

The new Footspeed changes have brought back that fast and fluid feel of the original without bring back the bugs. No longer is the game full of constant slow downs.

 

The blocking system is reliable, you know what is going to happen when you block. You don't have these partial break or some buggy system that sometimes blocks and sometimes doesn't.

 

The game feels much more polished then 1.04 and any of the Mods that run the same system with a few extras.

 

Other Mods are great fun, but thats it. Deep down at their core they are the same as 1.04, they just have some added features. ProMod has a different system, that is almost as radical as the change from 1.02 to 1.03.

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Here is a list of the new variables in Jediplus 3.4. These are the defaults. My new setting are about 20% higher.

 

Notice the box trace settings. If you have not played this way then you need to before you post a comment..not bitching....just I think you need to test these settings.

 

mod_damagecontrol; Turns full server-side saber damage contol on if set to 1

 

mod_redmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Standard Attack (default 2)

mod_redmax; - Maximum Damage of Red Stance Standard Attack (default 120)

mod_rspmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Special (default 2) (Jump Attack)

mod_rspmax; - Maximum Damage of Red Stance Special (default 180) (Jump Attack)

mod_rbsmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Backstab (default 2)

mod_rbsmax; - Maximum Damage of Red Stance Backstab (default 30)

 

mod_yspmin; - Minimum Damage of Yellow Stance Special (default 2) (DFA)

mod_yspmax; - Maximum Damage of Yellow Stance Special (default 80) (DFA)

mod_ybsmin; - Minimum Damage of Yellow Stance Backstab (default 2)

mod_ybsmax; - Maximum Damage of Yellow Stance Backstab (default 25)

mod_yellowdmg; - Damage of Yellow Stance Standard Attack (default 60)

 

mod_bspmin; - Minimum Damage of Blue Stance Special (default 2) (Lunge)

mod_bspmax; - Maximum Damage of Blue Stance Special (default 30) (Lunge)

mod_bbsmin; - Minimum Damage of Blue Stance Backstab (default 2)

mod_bbsmax; - Maximum Damage of Blue Stance Backstab (default 30)

mod_bluedmg; - Damage of Blue Stance Standard Attack (default 30)

 

mod_ospmin; - Minimum Damage of Orange Stance Special (default 2) (Tornado)

mod_ospmax; - Maximum Damage of Orange Stance Special (default 70) (Tornado)

mod_obsmin; - Minimum Damage of Orange Stance Backstab (default 2)

mod_obsmax; - Maximum Damage of Orange Stance Backstab (default 25)

mod_orangedmg; - Damage of Orange Stance Standard Attack (default 55)

 

mod_pspmin; - Minimum Damage of Purple Stance Special (default 2) (DFA2)

mod_pspmax; - Maximum Damage of Purple Stance Special (default 70) (DFA2)

mod_pbsmin; - Minimum Damage of Purple Stance Backstab (default 2)

mod_pbsmax; - Maximum Damage of Purple Stance Backstab (default 25)

mod_purpledmg; - Damage of Purple Stance Standard Attack (default 30)

 

Saber stuff:

seta g_saberboxtracesize "-1"

seta g_saberdmgvelocityscale "1.2"

seta g_saberdmgdelay_idle "350"

seta g_saberdmgdelay_wound "0"

seta g_saberghoul2collision "1"

seta g_sabertracesaberfirst "1"

seta _saberalwaysboxtrace "1"

 

And yes Promod has a different "feel" to it than other mods. If you also read you will see that I do LIKE Promod, others on my server did not.

 

Blocking in the current Jedimod/Jediplus is also a variable command. You can make it higher or lower. At lower settings you do not block unless you are not swinging your saber. A swinging saber is open to attacks because it is unable to fully block them.

 

seta mod_blockscale "0"

 

This setting means NO autoblocking. If you swing and miss and your opponent has an opening that they can use to strike before you bring your hands back to the ready position to block....then you are prob dead. This settings in plain english means do not swing unless you know your going to hit someone. This comes from lots of practice.

 

Most servers I have been on none of these settings have been used and indeed it is just a "window" dressing of 1.04.

 

But the way I have the saber damage set and the way the blocking works is more like 1.02, which is what I feel Promod is a close kin to in many ways.

 

Also I get no slowdowns on my server of any kind and if you feel that Jedimod/Jediplus it is a slower game it is not....

 

seta mod_timescale "1.2"//default is 1.0

 

This setting speeds the game up sligtly and takes away the "slow" feeling of standard 1.04.

 

I think all mods have a place...Promod for those fans who take games in general very serious, and the other mods for those who play for fun.

 

I find myself in the middle....so I will play both. I just felt that it was time someone got to the plate and took a swing for jedimod/jediplus. But the clients speak out the most.

 

I ran Promod for 2 1/2 hra last night and had three (including me) clients. twocame because they always do, one was even my co admin, and I sent them the Promod link. No others came to my door.

 

Then, at their request, I launched the Forcemod and within five minutes of being up we were full.

 

If Promod becomes the dominating mod then I will run it reguardless of what others feel. But for now I will stick to the most part Jedimod and Jediplus with the heavily modified settings I have talked about here.

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All this negative talk makes a n00b like me discouraged. I just got the game and am looking for some good games. But all I hear is nerfed weapon balance and spam/cheap moves. What would you vets suggest for a beginner? Where can one find good servers to train/play without having to put up with any immature crap?

 

Thnax in advance.:o

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didnt i mention that would be the opinion of new players when reading these threads? - Thankyou

 

*hears echos of you were right spy*

 

Please lets have no more whine threads about jk2. Its a great game or u would be playing it.

 

Daxon Rai where are u from? If ur from uk i can direct u in the way of some good servers

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Originally posted by Jedi Spy

didnt i mention that would be the opinion of new players when reading these threads? - Thankyou

 

*hears echos of you were right spy*

 

Please lets have no more whine threads about jk2. Its a great game or u would be playing it.

 

Daxon Rai where are u from? If ur from uk i can direct u in the way of some good servers

 

And the constant threads bitching about 1.03, 1.04, DFA, Red Stance, Backstab, Cheating, Bugs in the game and so on and so forth wouldn't have had the same effect regardless of this thread?

 

No one is disputing the game itself. Obviously if you are posting here, you are still playing it. This thread is looking at the future (or lack thereof, for some people) of the game.

 

He's from NYC as it plainly says under his avatar.

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Originally posted by Sith Maximus

Here is a list of the new variables in Jediplus 3.4....

 

mod_damagecontrol; Turns full server-side saber damage contol on if set to 1

 

mod_redmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Standard Attack (default 2)

mod_redmax; - Maximum Damage of Red Stance Standard Attack (default 120)

mod_rspmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Special (default 2) (Jump Attack)

...

 

This is exactly what I want to avoid in ProMod. This is way too much customizability for an admin to have. I would bet there are no two servers running this mod with the exact same settings. How are you supposed to formulate and practice a set of combat techniques when they'll work differently on every server you visit?

How are you supposed to get any better if you don't frequent the same server?

 

I can't imagine how frustrating this would be to new players. There are so many variables for them to grasp already. Throwing in one more variable for every single type of swing would make the learning curve extremely high for someone truly wanting to improve their skill level.

 

The worst part about it is that there's no way for them to realize what these variables are set at before they join. Even after they join they would have to play for some time before they could figure out what all the damages are set at (they'd have to allow themselves to be hit by the different swings and look at the resulting damage).

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We have enough tweak/window-dressing mods! All of the mods that are coming out that only make small changes are doing nothing to expand the community. They are only serving to confuse those new to mod-playing. I've heard tons of people say that they hate playing mods. When I ask why, they say that all the mods do is change "stupid" stuff like their saber color, or make their model a midget or a giant, or that they add the completely unnecessary grappling hook.

 

You forget one thing: people like them. By that stament you basically say "All mods that do not change saber combat are useless". Different saber colors was a very requested feature before Tchouky began doing his mod. A very good mod at that. Scaling models? What about Yoda? It was necessary to get scaling working to make him into the game.

 

Grappling hooks? You say they are unnecessary. From the comments I got, I can say that people liked my mod. Even in the basic state that it was (I never intended originally it to be a true mod, rather a feature to prove that it was possible to do) people liked it. Even in SW universe (and I hate the blatant statements that JK2 mods need to follow the rules of that universe, and if they not, they are worthless/stupid/etc.) there are grappling hooks. Mercenaries use them. That's why in jediVmerc it was limited to mercs only. Because that was according to SW facts (if you can call science fiction a fact). No mod is worthless/unnecessary if people play it and love it. You have no permission to say that "mod A,B,C is useless". If you think it is, don't include the feature in your own mod.

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Originally posted by ArtifeX

 

This is exactly what I want to avoid in ProMod. This is way too much customizability for an admin to have. I would bet there are no two servers running this mod with the exact same settings. How are you supposed to formulate and practice a set of combat techniques when they'll work differently on every server you visit?

How are you supposed to get any better if you don't frequent the same server?

 

I can't imagine how frustrating this would be to new players. There are so many variables for them to grasp already. Throwing in one more variable for every single type of swing would make the learning curve extremely high for someone truly wanting to improve their skill level.

 

The worst part about it is that there's no way for them to realize what these variables are set at before they join. Even after they join they would have to play for some time before they could figure out what all the damages are set at (they'd have to allow themselves to be hit by the different swings and look at the resulting damage).

 

Ah man artifex,

 

You miss the point entirely. I know you will never agree. If you think that what people need is a common set of damage values why are they changed in promod?!?! OK I use Duel SE and will be for the forseeable future, simply because you can turn blue lunge into a strike that does its specified ammount of damage even including the draeded double hit.

 

Also why in promod did you take the easiest possible move :- red downward hack and make it a one hit kil, LMAO you are truly midguided or a lover of red stance to the extreme.

 

ultimately artifex your standpoint on this topis ic heavily biased nuff said...

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Originally posted by ASk

 

You forget one thing: people like them. By that stament you basically say "All mods that do not change saber combat are useless"...

 

That's not what I'm saying at all. The idea that I was trying to get across was that the community doesn't need any more mods that do things like this. They've been done already. The modding community needs to focus on widening the gameplay options rather than tweaking things that have been done in other mods. The saber combat modifications of ProMod are only one example of that. There are innumerable other ways to enhance the fun of the game than by adding more cosmetic mods to the mix.

 

I actually think the customizable saber color mod that tchouky did adds significantly to the gameplay. It makes it very easy to tell one player from another from a distance when both players have the same or similar models. I actually plan to include something similar in one of my next releases. I would just hope that someone doesn't try to release a tchouky-saber-color++ mod.

 

...

Grappling hooks? You say they are unnecessary. From the comments I got, I can say that people liked my mod. Even in the basic state that it was (I never intended originally it to be a true mod, rather a feature to prove that it was possible to do) people liked it. Even in SW universe (and I hate the blatant statements that JK2 mods need to follow the rules of that universe, and if they not, they are worthless/stupid/etc.) there are grappling hooks. Mercenaries use them. That's why in jediVmerc it was limited to mercs only. Because that was according to SW facts (if you can call science fiction a fact).

 

I'll admit that the grappling hook comment was just my opinion. You can jump 20 meters straight up in this game, after all. That would just seem to make them unnecessary to me. Jedi vs. Merc I can see them being useful though.

 

No mod is worthless/unnecessary if people play it and love it. You have no permission to say that "mod A,B,C is useless". If you think it is, don't include the feature in your own mod.

 

Though i don't think anyone needs "permission" to speak their mind here, I wasn't calling anyone's mod "useless". I do think that the mod makers should take some responsibility for the mods they release, and decide whether their release will further confuse new players and water down the pool of jk2 mods.

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Originally posted by Jah Warrior

 

Ah man artifex,

 

You miss the point entirely. I know you will never agree. If you think that what people need is a common set of damage values why are they changed in promod?!?! OK I use Duel SE and will be for the forseeable future, simply because you can turn blue lunge into a strike that does its specified ammount of damage even including the draeded double hit.

 

Damages changed from what? 1.02? 1.03? 1.04? Damages have always been in a state of flux. ProMod's damage scale is just an attempt to bring them into balance. The blue stance's lunge swing damage only varies by about 5-10 points in ProMod, btw.

 

Also why in promod did you take the easiest possible move :- red downward hack and make it a one hit kil, LMAO you are truly midguided or a lover of red stance to the extreme.

 

ultimately artifex your standpoint on this topis ic heavily biased nuff said...

 

Actually, I haven't done anything to the red downward hack. It's always been capable of hitting twice since 1.02. It's just benefitting from the general damage boost I gave the entire red stance over 1.04. That swing is also nearly impossible to hit with in ProMod, as it will almost always strike the defenders saber before it hits their body. I actually had someone last night complaining that swing was too strong, so I asked them to hit me with it. They couldn't. They sure tried, but they couldn't hit me even once with it, let alone get a solid enough hit to strike twice.

 

Guess I'm in kinda an argumentative mood today. :)

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Originally posted by ArtifeX

 

I can't imagine how frustrating this would be to new players. There are so many variables for them to grasp already. Throwing in one more variable for every single type of swing would make the learning curve extremely high for someone truly wanting to improve their skill level.

 

The worst part about it is that there's no way for them to realize what these variables are set at before they join.

 

True a learning curve can happen from server to server and it does depend on the way that the server has been setup. But by playing a mod they should realize that it will not be a standard game in any way and they should ask what changes have been made.

 

Plus as far as style go...I do not change mine from game to game. I stick with what I know and use it to the best of my ability. All of the basic saber moves are the same from gametype to gametype.

 

As for new players myself or my co admin always asks if they know how to do the air lunge for example. If they do not we will show them. Heck I even let people kill me every night just to show them how things work.

 

Most people who visit me come back to play again becuase of the way I have it setup as well as the variations in gametypes. Some times its fun to be serious and other times its fun to just have fun.

I was on your server over the weekend and let me say that it was full of very unhelpfull people. They were running around overhead slashing each other over and over again. Better than 1.04 for sure but not any where near as fun for the AVERAGE gamer than a Jedimod or Jedplus server.

 

Games need variety thats for sure, look at Quake, UT or Halflife. These games survive and flourish with variety.

 

Jedimod was made for the crowd who wanted to "get jiggy" with a lightsaber or a destroyer saber. You get to taunt your attackers in all sorts of ways or just sit down and relax for a while. The fun is in the extras for most players. I duel my coadmin and a select core of players most nights. We take the game a little more serious than the others, but I want everyone to enjoy themselves.

 

You wanted a more difinitive combat style system, so you made it. And it is great for what it is. I have even upped my damage scales to make the saber fights more about skill and less about flair.

 

But all mods have their place. Next month Jedimod will prob be replaced by something else.

 

Heck If I were you I would get the Jedimod code and add in those saber colors you stated above as well as the scaling of the models.

 

I would say that would boost the mod popularity through the roof. Not all players are good, heck a great deal of them just plain suck. But they want to have fun and thats the bottom line.

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Originally posted by Sith Maximus

...

I was on your server over the weekend and let me say that it was full of very unhelpfull people. They were running around overhead slashing each other over and over again. Better than 1.04 for sure but not any where near as fun for the AVERAGE gamer than a Jedimod or Jedplus server.

...

 

You must have been there with some players new to the mod. In practice, I've found that anyone repetitively doing any move gets beaten pretty handily by any of the regular players. Look for ZeroWingZero, FatalStrike, or Blind Moradin sometime in my server. I think you'll find that combat amongst the skilled is very different from what you experienced.

 

Just ask Zero how many times I've carved him up like a turkey with Blue stance. :)

 

Heck If I were you I would get the Jedimod code and add in those saber colors you stated above as well as the scaling of the models.

 

I would say that would boost the mod popularity through the roof. Not all players are good, heck a great deal of them just plain suck. But they want to have fun and thats the bottom line.

 

At some point I will be adding some more cosmetic details such as the RGB sabers (though it won't be Tchouky's), but I've been pretty vocal in my resistance to the model scaling idea. I haven't yet seen an implementation that handled this in a way that preserves game balance. The fact that 80% of the normally-scaled saber swing animations go over the head of the scaled-down Yoda model (sometimes even when ducking) makes this just too great of an advantage.

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Originally posted by ArtifeX

Actually, I haven't done anything to the red downward hack. It's always been capable of hitting twice since 1.02. It's just benefitting from the general damage boost I gave the entire red stance over 1.04. That swing is also nearly impossible to hit with in ProMod, as it will almost always strike the defenders saber before it hits their body. I actually had someone last night complaining that swing was too strong, so I asked them to hit me with it. They couldn't. They sure tried, but they couldn't hit me even once with it, let alone get a solid enough hit to strike twice.

 

Guess I'm in kinda an argumentative mood today. :)

 

Man you aint swinging it right then, if you time it right for when the opponent is in an attack it will cut the poor sod in half, my main gripe with promod is that its far too easy. I actually had to pull the mod off my server because it got to the point where you can win sooo easily with an easy shot that people were winning 20-30 matches in a row (not naming names... ok it was me;) ) some people got the real hump because it had shuffled the deck so much.

 

Ultimately this may sound contradictory, but i really loved promod it was ingenious if flawed. I'll wait till its finished then give it another go, but in the mean time I cant put up with the bugs - turning dfas,lunges, running around during yellow finisher and spinning backstabs. may aswell go back to 1.03 LOL.

 

Anyways Artifex if you want someone who is a sceptic to test your mod rather than one of your fanclub let me know and you will get an honest appraisal of it rather than simply fawning to you. Damn this sounds pissy but hey I'm speaking my pissy little mind.

 

;)

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To Jah Warrior

 

The downward Red slash is SOOOOOO easy to avoid or counter that if you get hit with it, well then DIE!! It will take no time for people to actually anticipate it and make it damn near impossible to land. What is this nonsense that people win over and over. I've played Promod a lot and I NEVER get owned by that silly swing.

 

Also the turning DFA, yellow DFA, and spinning backstabs happen very rarely. They are still less of a bother then random blocking.

 

This is just my opinion, please don't go all apesh!t on me. I really don't understand why you are so anti-strong hits.

 

 

 

Also Razorace this topic is about JKII dieing and ProMod is one of the things breathing life back into it. Your constant anti-Promod attitude is starting to tick me off. If you don't want to read about it, skip the posts that cover it.

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Originally posted by ArtifeX

 

You must have been there with some players new to the mod. In practice, I've found that anyone repetitively doing any move gets beaten pretty handily by any of the regular players. Look for ZeroWingZero, FatalStrike, or Blind Moradin sometime in my server. I think you'll find that combat amongst the skilled is very different from what you experienced.

 

 

I shall do that, thanks.

 

Also I think you may have the wrong idea about the model cfg. Its nice to have a variety of sizes of players, just like in real life. Plus the fact some are faster and some are slower adds to the difficulty factor of the game.

 

Yoda may be small but he is wicked fast and quite hard to hit even for a std size player. In blue stance Yoda kicks some serious behind. On the other side the wookie has great reach, but is slowed down as well, just as in real life.

 

Your mod has made the combat somewhat more realistic than std JK2 so the addition of different model sizes should only improve the game.

 

Your welcome to come to Crazy Yoda to see what I mean. Dueling with a yoda is far different than with a wookie for the average player.

 

Oh just so we dont get slammed again.........

 

I LOVE RED STANCE. RED STANCE IS GOOD. RED STANCE MAKE ME WIN.:D

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