DiRtY $oUtH™ Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 its ok....take it how you want....i'm just letting you know that simple minded people who use science as a belief simply because it benefits what you WANT to believe will find themselves lost when they are in need of guidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CagedCrado Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Again, dont argue if you dont want somebody with no point to flame you. I think im taking a pretty neutral oppinion here. If you have to work to believe dont waste your time. If you have to fight to defend your belief maybe you should rethink it. If you have no belief you should get one. (not necesarily in a religion or in science, just some belief even if you invent it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Originally posted by Darth Yoda85 I can't wait till all you atheists are facing judgement day...where will your precious science be then? We shall see.... And I cant wait until the day you are on your deathbed, weeping because of all that time wasted praying to some non-existant god.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 @ crado call it pre-emptive defense from attack this should appeal to americans @ Yoda85 So y do u believe in god then? explain urself without using the following phrases: "because i want to" (that would make u no different from the people u just flamed for believing in science) "because i do" (this is not an explanation) "because my parents do" (grow up and think for urself) "because i was schooled like this" (see above) etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider First I do not believe that God made the world only because the bible says so. Carbon-14 dating is not accurate. Why you ask? First you do not know how much Carbon a object started with thing could happen to change the carbon-14 to carbon-12 faster. All tests were base on the world being millions of years old and that the rate of decay has been the same. So you are uses evolution to prove how old the world is and then useing that to prove evolution??? I think that sounds like a circle don't you? Dinosaurs There is nothing to say that they couldn't fit into a biblical view. Math Mathmatics is disproving evolution every time. To get a man from a ape by slow change is 3.56X 102304956 then you need of course a male and female to continue the the line so double that number. Oh but then you need a big enough gene pool. So you need about 8 males and 8 females to continue the line. Now add the olds for getting 8 males and 8 female. And then multiply that by the number of animals on the earth. Genetics About 99.9% of mutations are harmful or useless to the animimal that has them. Also the animals are steral so they can't reproduce. Age of the Earth There is no way anyone can prove how old the earth is as if man wasn't around 2,000,000 years ago how would you know how much Carbon-14s there are in a rock? Life from a pool of goo. How is it we get life from a non-living pool? How did the pool get there in the first place? Have vans reporduced living mini-vans? And also the pool would create left-handed(Toxic) molcules and right-handed(Needed for life). Complexity Why is it all thing work so well? Why does your computer work? Why do you work? Why is it that you stay on the ground? And how could this come about by chance. Why aren't boeing 747s being put together in junk yards all the time if we got this complexity by chance? Evolution If things evolve why aren't they evolveing today still? Why can't we find missing links? So when you tell me that this is science. I think you are mistaken. It is just a theory that is being disproven. Carbon-14 dating: Scientists have measured the half-life of Carbon-14. Given available data, C-14 dating is extremely accurate concerning the material in question, and certainly does document the fact that the earth is several billion years old. Of course, you could assume that we do not know how much carbon-14 a material started out with, but then again - this makes my theory just as good as yours. If you do not work from available data, then you could just as well assume the whole world is 5 seconds old. Math, Genetics, Age Of Earth: On human development, the theory I read said 8 mil. years - and I'd like to know where you pulled that number from and the time interval that it covers (because you can make the number in question infinitly large if you make the time interval it covers correspondingly small). If, for example, the figure covers the chance of a spontaneus mutation occuring within an hour, then it is entirely useless - we're talking about 4 billion years 'ere. Yes, it is all seemingly impossible that life evolved, but if we're talking about an infinte amount of time then it suddenly becomes very plausible. And if it is plausible, then it could just happen. Evolution: Aren't things evolving today? Don't let me introduce you to quite a number of bacteriae, that are apparently able to evolve, so they become immune to the anti-biotics being used on them. Why can't we find missing links? Things decay, you can't expect to find every living organism that ever lived - dead organisms are constantly being recycled. Notice how it is by blind luck that we find some of the dinosaur skeletons - besides, there have been, in fact, found some dino skeletons that resembled a missing link between them and the birds - Feathered dinosaurs yey. Complexity: You are assuming that objects cannot function if they're missing even a small detail. 1) The eye - the eye is a tremendously complex structure, that cannot operate correctly if we remove even a tiny part of it. Yet there have been found creatures with light-sensitive cells. These creatures are the no-longer-missing-link between eye-less creatures and creatures who possess eyes. 2) A special kind of bacteria dies if exposed to an oxygen-rich environment, but if placed in an oxygen-poor, carbondioxide-rich environment they can evolve into plants over the course of many generations (bacteria generations that is. Some bacteria have a generation time of 20 min. in optimal conditions). Since plants convert carbondioxide to oxygen, we now have an evironment hostile to the original species, yet nonhostile to, and generated by, its descendants. Viola: A system where the whole is greater than the sum of the part, yet the sum did evolve from the parts. However, I will applaud you for not simply reaching for the Bible, point at it and cry: "Because God made it so". In scientific terms, a "Theory" is a confirmed hypothesis - the way you use it, it seems as though you think it is merely a hypothesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dath Maximus Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 ok lets stop with the attacking of each others beleifs, Dark Yoda, Tyrion, and Clem. atlthough i usually dont get into these philosofical mudslinging arguments, im gonna speak my thoughts in this one. Darwinism is what i beleive. You dont like it, then great! just dont bug me about it. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pisces Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Clem (science is a religion .... cept this 1 comes with and owners manual that has proofs) Some may not think religions have proofs but that's why most religions involve faith. Anyway, I'm going with a halfway perspective. There's a halfway point between creation and evolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Darth Yoda85 its ok....take it how you want....i'm just letting you know that simple minded people who use science as a belief simply because it benefits what you WANT to believe will find themselves lost when they are in need of guidance. I can name several other things that us simple minded creatures benefit from - such as electricity and running water BTW White raider, sorry for skipping your post at the beginning, I was making my post as you posted yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediNyt Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Me too Im out of this discussion. I expressed mine without flaming people and you cant attack me for that. Out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elijah Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Clem we evolved from monkeys we share 99.9% of our genes with them (not 86 whoever said that) we share about 80 or 90% with a banana btw. this all came from proteins which were floating about and happened to make some single cell organisms (im not entirely sure how this works .... im only 17 FFS) They where just floating about and just kinda made a cell that just kinda made another one and that just kinda kept happening and here we are today. What the heck? Where did proteins come from? O_o your saying that everything just floated togeather and this happened? if you made a small environment with absolutely no living thing in it, do you really believe that you'll get something out of nothing? if u believe in a god thats ok ... u may be right ... but i cant go with that ... religion requires me to believe blindly ... science provides me with proof and talks me thru it till it makes sense and you dont call evolution a blind belief? humans do not like the idea that they have no real purpose ... that when they die ... they cease to exist. Also alot of people think "why am i here". religion provides answers to these problems but now science has come along (it takes time to develop stuff) and is providing us with evidence and proof which added to a little logic gives us the answers. its the natural succesor to religion (dont flame me for that) LOGIC? LOGIC? Your telling me that things floated around and suddenly happened and you are telling me about LOGIC? How ignorant can you possibly be? Darwinism IS correct The man said it was all false and totally speculation on his death bed... how can you believe something that the author didnt even believe himself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiRtY $oUtH™ Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 I believe in my religion because there have been miracles worked and recorded in history. In addition, as it relates to humans in general, religions ppl tend to be more generous and thoughtful of others. They are role models and live a good life, most of them. Tell me that Mother Teresa was not a great exapmle to the world of how we should live our lives....she gave and gave without a thought of reward. She dedicated herself to helping others and that is enough to make me believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Darth Yoda85 Tell me that Mother Teresa was not a great exapmle to the world of how we should live our lives....she gave and gave without a thought of reward. She dedicated herself to helping others and that is enough to make me believe. So did the budhist monks, but you dont see them believing in god.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiRtY $oUtH™ Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 whatever you say.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Simpson Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 The man said it was all false and totally speculation on his death bed Just curious, where did you hear this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 im not attacking yoda (even tho hes attacking me) im working towards making him realise he believes in god because he WANTS to we all (above the age of being able to think for ourselves) believe in a religion because we want to .... cos it fits our way of thinking or our experiences @white raider some of your numbers are just plain wrong (we share 99.9% with apes (not monkeys as most people say) not 80 genes) so id check them all .... otherwise no1 will believe u @Yoda85 .... i wouldnt trust alot of the ancient recordings ... we know so little of them ... also alot of them are created from stories passed down generations (the bible for instance) and stories change when theyre told i also believe its better to be nice to people ..... but not cos i want to get into heaven (think about that) @Zdawg read cjais' explanation it seems to be much better than mine ...... whats life if not alot of chemicals in 1 place ... in 1 order ... there was alot of chemicals about after the big bang ... it was just dumb luck that they ended up in the right order. im not talking about it taking 15 mins to do it ... it took Millions of years just for the first life to be born from the chemicals Proof of evolution .... READ MY POST BE4 U KNOCK IT FOOL ... i have provided proof! (if u dont believe the taller proof .... read the bacteria proof) The man said it was speculation ..... thats what all theories are matey ... they dont become nething more untill u have ALOT of evidence (which we have) he may also have said that to make people happy .... he was ridiculed and hated etc. IN A BIG WAY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CagedCrado Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 I figured it out. and have determined these arguments go nowhere. The oppinions of what are fact are entirely different between the two groups. Group number 1, the darwins want something they can mentally grasp. Group number 2 wants something they can feel with their hearts (not literally your heart but you get the idea darwins) I give the points for this argument to group #1 because group #2 lacks arguments, their arguments in this debate are so poor they couldnt get a priest to side with them. This is in no way biased, in fact i do believe in god (contrary to posts i made at one time) I just feel that the people posting here have poorly supported what they have said and are flaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by ZDawg The man said it was all false and totally speculation on his death bed... how can you believe something that the author didnt even believe himself? The reason that I called this thread "Creationism vs Darwinsism" is because I think many people can relate to it better than "Creationism vs Science".... and some people might have been offended by that thread name. Darwin was the dude that started it all, one might say (he wasn't, really) - but that does not make him some idol people worship. He was very wrong on some points. ZDawg: See my large post above - things happen, given enough time. We are talking about 15 billion years - not your lifetime. If aminoacids can be made given an eternity, then it can happen in 20 years too, by chance - the chance may be very, very small, but it's there. Science/evolution is not a belief - it's the exact opposite. It's seeing, observing, thinking and then seeing again to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 this argument is indeed useless but i wont stand for my beliefs to be attacked also sumthing i missed we know how much Carbon 14 is in a substance cos we know the likelyhood of a carbon molecule being carbon 14 (not sure what the number is off by heart) we know how much carbon is in say 10 grams of sumthing .... so we know how many carbon 14s there should be .... we know how long it takes for a carbon 14 to turn into a carbon 12 ..... so we know how old sumthing is sure ..... it aint a perfect system ... but we come up with the same and similar answers for the age of the earth WHEREVA we test .... u telling me the whole world is useless for carbon dating?! every single bit tainted?! sure whatever also back on mother teresa .... she wasnt a great person because she believed in god .... she was a great person because she was a great person david beckham is a great footballer .... he also has a silly haircut (normally) .... does this mean having a silly haircut makes u a good footballer .... no ... QED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elijah Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Clem @Zdawg read cjais' explanation it seems to be much better than mine ...... whats life if not alot of chemicals in 1 place ... in 1 order ... there was alot of chemicals about after the big bang ... it was just dumb luck that they ended up in the right order. im not talking about it taking 15 mins to do it ... it took Millions of years just for the first life to be born from the chemicals I dont care if it takes seconds/years/millions it is impossible Proof of evolution .... READ MY POST BE4 U KNOCK IT FOOL ... i have provided proof! (if u dont believe the taller proof .... read the bacteria proof) The taller thing? i PROOVED your *proof* incorrect. PERIOD Bacteria? you call that proof? how does that make a human? or any life? The man said it was speculation ..... thats what all theories are matey ... they dont become nething more untill u have ALOT of evidence (which we have) I'm still waiting for this so called *evidence* and speculation isnt fact... although it ties into theory. but when somone who created it says its false, it than it is no longer speculation but is now just a though and has no PROOF to back it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Knight Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by ZDawg I'm still waiting for this so called *evidence* and speculation isnt fact... although it ties into theory. but when somone who created it says its false, it than it is no longer speculation but is now just a though and has no PROOF to back it up. give me evidence of how we just appered out of no where then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by ZDawg I dont care if it takes seconds/years/millions it is impossible ZDawg: I'm hoping I am not being to offensive here, and I certainly still respect you. But. Do you know what an insane person is? It's a person who have excluded a lot of options - has narrowed his view of the world down to something set on a rail. His vision of the world is a singular course, and he won't deviate from it. I'm not calling you insane here, even though this might sound like it - I'm trying to warn you against assuming something is impossible. God might exist. I don't know, and I haven't seen him yet. If I one day see overwhelming proof of the divine, I might change opinion - but until then, I study, observe my world around me, I calculate and I rely on my brain more than my faith. Thus far, the only thing I've seen is proof that "God" never existed - but I'm keeping my options open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Zdawg .... dont just argue ... think ... then argue 1 .. i was referring to bacteria evolving to be immune to drugs 2 .. life from chemicals is not impossible .... its just bloody UNLIKELY ... say theres a 1 in a billion chance of sumthing happening in a day ... theres been many billions of days since the birth of the earth ... therefore its likely to have happened a few times 3. we ARE taller now ... we know this from buildings and many other things (low ceilings doors etc.) partially this is due to better nutrition but also partly evolution 4. evidence ... skeletons of missing links between men and apes we find a really old skeleton that looks like an ape ... then a younger 1 that looks a bit more manly then a younger 1 a bit MORE manly ... and so on ... thats proof if u choose to ignore it ... then so be it .. but dont forget it exists 5. Zdawg stop clinging to darwin saying its false or wrong ... if he was wrong about the theory ... then couldnt he be wrong about being wrong?! its been proved since darwin .. we dont just believe what he says ... we go out and look Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qui-GONE Jinn Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 It seems like some people here are viewing theories as proof. Let me remind all you scientists that to prove a theory totally wrong, all that's required is one evidence against it. Then the whole thing crashes down. Be careful to build your lives on such "accepted" theories, you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 10, 2002 Author Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Qui-GONE Jinn It seems like some people here are viewing theories as proof. Let me remind all you scientists that to prove a theory totally wrong, all that's required is one evidence against it. Then the whole thing crashes down. Be careful to build your lives on such "accepted" theories, you know? <cross reference my above post> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elijah Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 I'm not narrow minded, I believe in many possibilities... but this isn’t one. I find it funny that you guys keep calling us Christians narrow minded and yet your stuck on the fact that evolution is FACT and our Religion is not. Without wrong there would be no right. When we die or the earth ends we will just see who is wrong/right… But until than we all choose our paths of life and mine certainly won’t be spent wondering how I got here or trying to prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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