Acrylic Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Tyrion And I cant wait until the day you are on your deathbed, weeping because of all that time wasted praying to some non-existant god.. i respect everyones religions, but i took that as a major insult. I believe that there is one God, who created everything, and that is my beliefs. And when we all die, we will see who is correct. So I think we should stop all this evil flaming and insulting. Its not worth people's time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Ok, I usually stay out of these threads because I have strong minded views, and I am of the opinion that EVERYONE is entitled to their own view on life and existance, and noone should force their own beliefs on someone else...... but, I'll post my thoughts anyway. I, am an athiest. Many people seem to confuse athiest with antitheist, and attack us for it. A = No Theist= God Anti = Against Theist = God Athiests purely wish not to believe in a higher deity. I find life stressful enough without having to worship and appease some god every day. I used to be christian, back in the day when my parents made me attend Sunday School to learn about the christian world. When some of my family members and close friends started dieing long, slow, painful cancerus deaths, I asked myself why. As I was losing my faith, I asked christian their view. Most of the time they'd respond with a "Noone knows why it happens, but we know it's not god. It's the evilness of satan. But it's all in the master plan. We will find out why when the time comes" To be honest, I found that quite unsatisfactory. I wanted to know why my family and friends suffered. Good, honest people, who died long before their time. Many of my friends are strongly christian. I dont flame them for it. I accept that other people have views... however, it may be a generalization, but something I've noticed is that out of all the religions of our world, the one that seems to force itself onto people time and time again is christianity. I used to attend many young group nights with my friends, as theyd be invited to bring someone along every week or 2. We'd all get talking about stuff, and then the group would ask me my faith. So, I was honest with them. I told them I didnt believe in god, and I was happy that way. These normally benign, friendly people quickly turned almost hostile and were fast in telling me I was wrong, and the next hour or 2 was a "Try and convert Ian into a god-loving christian"-fest. (Note to all, I'm not flaming christians or their religion. I'm telling my observations. Feel free to post your opinion on what I'm saying. Just don't attack me with unjustified insults or objections) I've encountered many religions in my travels, and I'm intrigued by them and compelled to learn more about them. Not necessarily to follow them, but to learn how these people think and live. Most religions I have found, have an open mind to other religions, and are not quick off the trigger to point the gun at them and say they are blatently wrong. But, I have found many christians to be guilty of this (if this is not you, dont take it personally. It's a personal observation, not an attack). Many people of the christian faith consider their religion to be the ONLY correct religion, and that all who do not believe in and pray to the christian god are going to hell.. Now, pardon me for noticing, but this oh-so-common view seems to say that all non-christians are doomed to a fiery eternity. Isn't far less than half the worlds population actually christian. Half the worlds population alone is in china/india. Is that to say that all these people, who may never have been EXPOSED to christianity, are condemned to hell forever? Is it their fault they never learned the christian way of life? Certainly you cant say they deserve what is supposedly coming to them. Back on the evolutionary front, I have this wonderful document I found a long time back. But before I post a fe quote from it, lets be sure we know the difference between creationists and everyday christians. Creationists believe the bible as the word of god, right down to the biblical creation. They disregard any scientific view on creation, and believe that all rules for life and truths have been laid out for us by god, in the bible. Christians need not fit into this category. They can love their god, worship him in hope that an eternity of happiness in the end. They need not take the bible as truth word for word, but they can believe many parts, such as the existance of jesus, and take on morals and lessons from the book. Anyway, the document... Someone mentioned the perfection of the human eye, and how it could come about in a choatic world. First, creationists trot out that old saw about how nothing as complex as an eye could evolve in stages, since a half-eye is no good at all. Darwin himself trounced that one roundly by merely observing that there are creatures alive today with eyes in all "stages of development", from a few light-sensitive cells, to a cup-shaped receptor with no proper lens, to eagle eyes far sharper than ours. Other creatures seem to get along fine with half-eyes and even 1/100 eyes. Then for the final insult, human (the pinnacle of creation) eyes are clearly an engineering mistake! The retinas are inside out. The nerves and blood vessels come out through the light-sensitive area of the retina, producing a blind spot, then spread over the front of the light-receptor cells, so that light has to get past the fibers into the receptors. Why aren't the nerves and capillaries behind the receptors, where they would be out of the way and there would be no need for a blind spot? Squid eyes are arranged just that way. Since ours aren't, one is reminded of the maxim that evolution has to work with the materials at hand, adapting systems already in place, with results that often seem jury-rigged or needlessly complicated. Would an Ultimate Engineer make such an obvious blunder, especially having got it right in creatures created earlier? I quite like that one "In our image" That's how God made man, according to Genesis, and therefore according to creationists. But every moderately bright 8-year-old immediately comes up with two questions which are never satisfactorily answered. If any answers are offered, they are usually cobbled-up rationalizations from outside the Bible. Generally, the kid gets the message that he's better off not asking such things. The first is whom the One and Only God meant by "our"--but that's really a theological question, not related directly to creationism. The second question, however, is right on target: If man was made "in [God's] image", then Adam must have looked just like God--right? But wait--it gets more confusing. Man is immediately referred to as "them", so maybe it's not just Adam who looks like God. Then to further confound literal-minded youngsters, "...in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." If God is male (the assumption of 97.83% of all creationists), then how could a female be made in His image? Let's grant the general creationist assumptions (correct me if I'm wrong): God is male; men are made "in [His] image" in only a general way (maybe even Adam didn't look exactly like Him); and women were made with necessary differences to enable reproduction. Still a load of embarrassing questions arise. Much has been made of Adam's navel, and why he would have one, having never been attached to a placenta. I want to know if God has one. I want to know if He has a digestive tract. If so, why? Does He eat? If so, what, and why would He need to? Does He excrete? Where? What happens to it? Does He have lungs? Why would He need them? Does He have sweat glands? And naughty stuff: does He have genitals? Why would He need those? Does He even have two legs, and feet, and toes? Why would He need them, unless He's bound by gravity, as we are? Childish questions? Of course, but only because they arise from a literal (i.e., childish) reading of Genesis. But the point is profound: either God has human-like organs and glands and body parts, or He doesn't. If He does, why, and what does He use them for? If He doesn't, then made "in [His] image" has no literal meaning. (For those creationists tempted to inform me that the human soul was what was made in God's image, let me save you the trouble and thank you ahead of time for backing up my point: the phrase has no literal [physical] meaning. I would point out that a great many generations of Judaeo-Christians have taken the phrase to mean physical resemblance, and that most fundamentalist believers still do. Ever see a painting that showed God with anything but a human form? Let me also direct you to the section of Exodus wherein Moses is covered with God's hand, and then allowed to view His backside. Note also numerous other biblical references to God's hands, face, and other apparently human-like body parts. One of my favorites is Jacob's wrestling match with God, in which Jacob didn't recognize the Lord of All Creation until later, and God couldn't win until He cheated by using magic!) Truth This isn't about the things creationists are just wrong about, like how old the Earth is, but about things that I suspect a good many know are not true, or gross distortions of the truth. The general one is that there is a great debate among scientists about whether species have evolved. A joyous update is that only a few die-hards still believe in the Big Bang. There are plenty of other amusing examples: • human footprints alongside dinosaurs • human artifacts found among dinosaur bones • a geological column that is almost never in the "proper" order described by geologists • proof from all over the world of a worldwide Flood • the "NASA computer" that revealed the "extra day" when the sun stopped to give the Israelites more time to conquer Jericho • the deep hole geologists drilled and then had to fill in hurriedly when they heard the screams from Hell • Darwin's "deathbed recantation" (the "Lady Hope" story) Nothing seems too silly or too obviously wrong to pass along. As far as I'm aware, Darwin calling his work a falacy on his death bed is a crock of you know what. Beetles Does God have a beetle fixation? Why else would He create so many different kinds? Maybe He loves them more than man. After all, can a beetle sin? --Noah Riggins An amusing point, but one to think about Here's one for the 747 comments Tornadoes, Junkyards, and 747's It used to be a pocket watch that "proved" evolution can't happen. Now that lame creationist analogy has apparently evolved to demand that it be possible for a tornado to assemble a 747 out of a junkyard before we can admit the possibility of evolution. What the creationist always conveniently leaves out of the analogy is the power of NON-random selection on repeated events. Allow a little leeway here for differences between mechanical assembly and natural systems (chemistry and life). Have the tornado roar through repeatedly, several times an hour (representing the speed of chemical reactions, or of cells multiplying). Allow selection pressures to "favor" parts or accidental assemblies that could function as part of a 747 (they're allowed to "survive", i.e. not torn apart). Let the experiment run a few million years and you will have your wide-body jet. Admittedly, that's still a pretty lame analogy, but it represents evolution way better than the creationists' single windstorm. This would make it even closer to evolution: Don't demand a specific product at the end (like a plane or a human). Instead, "favor" any chance assembly that would be useful for any purpose. Allow assemblies to reproduce with occasional random changes. Select the most useful. Hey, that is evolution. Give it some time and you will have some amazingly "well-adapted" and useful mechanisms. Granted, the chances of one being a 747 are effectively zero (unless it was intentionally selected for), but no biologist I know of ever claimed that evolution "intended" to produce a person If anyone has any quotes, like about Darwin on his deathbed, please source them, so that we may read these for ourself I like my life. It has its ups and downs. Everyone has ups and downs. The rollercoaster way of life is so prevalent now that we accept it as 'life'. The world isn't perfect, people have their own views. We're not all the same. That's what makes this place so damn interesting. That's why we travel. To experience others and their culture. If you're of a faith, by all means, think what you want about the poor souls who dont agree with you, but dont try and change them, no matter what your god tells you to do. "Spread the word of god" by all means, but dont shove it down people's throats and change their way of life by force. If someone's happy how they are, let them be. And lets not attack people personally I'd like to keep this thread open long enough for Kurgan to get his ass in here. He's actually studying theology I believe, and he's a great guy to talk to for a logical debate. Keep openin the worm cans GonkH8er. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by AcrylicGuitar i respect everyones religions, but i took that as a major insult. I believe that there is one God, who created everything, and that is my beliefs. And when we all die, we will see who is correct. So I think we should stop all this evil flaming and insulting. Its not worth people's time. Well, I'd consider what he said to be a viable comeback to a prior post, stating that someone else cant wait til we Evolutionists and Atheists are at our death beds or being judged by god and sentenced to hell. He was simply retorting in a manner that echoed the post that insulted us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by AcrylicGuitar i respect everyones religions, but i took that as a major insult. I believe that there is one God, who created everything, and that is my beliefs. And when we all die, we will see who is correct. So I think we should stop all this evil flaming and insulting. Its not worth people's time. It was all in response towards Darth Yoda. No harm meant towards you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Rogue15 mods, close this thread, it's going to make me bypass the censor and say some necessary words... evolutionists need to evolve themselves a brain. Rogue, I'd expect better from you. The thread is staying open, as long as it's respectable, but words that like will get it closed quick smart, or at least posts edited. I've never had to edit another mod's posts... but I'm willing if they contain material like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Tyrion, there's more evidence in the Bible than evolution... I believe the ruins of babylon, the ark (not sure, but it could be..), and some other artifacts that are known were in the Bible, and there's alot of evidence of a flood that covered the entire earth. As well as dinosaurs in the bible (read last chapters of Job). *drags redwing in here to finish you off* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiRtY $oUtH™ Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 i agree with rogue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Rogue15 Tyrion, there's more evidence in the Bible than evolution... there's alot of evidence of a flood that covered the entire earth. source it and we'll believe you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Rogue15 Tyrion, there's more evidence in the Bible than evolution... Does the bible explain about Australiopithicas,Homo-Habilis, Homo Erectus, Homo Sapien, and Homo Sapien Sapiens? We evolutionist/anagontists/anthesits have our "bibles" too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elijah Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Tyrion Then who made that god? If God was created than would he be God? What comes before beggining? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhiteRaider Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Tyrion Then why was my science teacher talking about the big bang..? Teachers are 1-20 or more years behind. They don't keep up to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by GonkH8er Rogue, I'd expect better from you. The thread is staying open, as long as it's respectable, but words that like will get it closed quick smart, or at least posts edited. I've never had to edit another mod's posts... but I'm willing if they contain material like that. i was just kidding. :/ All these atheists are asking for PROOF that god exists. well, if the anti-christ showed up and started doing all kinda of ****, they'd believe he was god and end up going to hell. just something for u atheists to think about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 So you're willing to say that god is eternal and always has been, but you blatently deny the possibility of a creational point in the universe where everything came to be, without the aid of a supernatural force? What exactly was god doing in that eternity before he made man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by ZDawg If God was created than would he be God? What comes before beggining? But who created him. He could not have created himself, because he was non-existant before he created himself. And, if he did create himself, then why did he take so ass long to make humans? Edit- Oh god, me and Gonk-H8ter are thinking alike! Double-edit- Hmm Rouge 15? Maybe we -could- think of him as god. Heck,for all you know the Anti-Christ could be coming here faking as god and would you be the wiser? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Tyrion Does the bible explain about Australiopithicas,Homo-Habilis, Homo Erectus, Homo Sapien, and Homo Sapien Sapiens? We evolutionist/anagontists/anthesits have our "bibles" too. and they're not 'Holy' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by GonkH8er What exactly was god doing in that eternity before he made man? he was inventing the blueprints of man. duh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider Teacher are 1-20 or more years behind. They don't keep up to date. Up to date with what? Christianity? Is the bible being updated with new christian evidence? Am i missing something here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Rogue15 he was inventing the blueprints of man. duh. rofl. " No no,you see. That part cannot go there, or else the babies would look like ants! damnit luther,go to hell!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhiteRaider Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Does the bible explain about Australiopithicas,Homo-Habilis, Homo Erectus, Homo Sapien, and Homo Sapien Sapiens? Do you have proof that they ever were here? Most so called "Missing links" we fake. Piltdown man was too much of a hoax as fossilize chewing gum was in one of his tooth cavitys. There is no proof. Untill you guys come up with some you have no case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Tyrion But who created him. He could not have created himself, because he was non-existant before he created himself. And, if he did create himself, then why did he take so ass long to make humans? Edit- Oh god, me and Gonk-H8ter are thinking alike! Double-edit- Hmm Rouge 15? Maybe we -could- think of him as god. Heck,for all you know the Anti-Christ could be coming here faking as god and would you be the wiser? the first question is a good one if you're tired and don't want to sleep. The second one is: The Holy Spirit will let me know if it's God or not. think of the Holy Spirit as a Holy Jiminey Cricket, i'm tired and don't want to embarrass myself trying to spell that C word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhiteRaider Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by GonkH8er Up to date with what? Christianity? Is the bible being updated with new christian evidence? Am i missing something here? I am talking about their fields. And heck some teachers are so stupid that they shouldn't be in there in the first place. I know of a teacher in Denver that could even spell and he was teaching grammar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Rogue15 The second one is: The Holy Spirit will let me know if it's God or not. think of the Holy Spirit as a Holy Jiminey Cricket, i'm tired and don't want to embarrass myself trying to spell that C word. Wouldnt the holy spirt let me also know if it was god or not? Hey, I have my ears open for god,only problem is he aint givin back no detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhiteRaider Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Tyrion Wouldnt the holy spirt let me also know if it was god or not? Hey, I have my ears open for god,only problem is he aint givin back no detail. He could be in this debate. You may not have seen it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Tyrion Wouldnt the holy spirt let me also know if it was god or not? Hey, I have my ears open for god,only problem is he aint givin back no detail. maybe you're not listening to what god has to say to you. and maybe he's waiting for a response back from you, but you're so blind and deaf that you're not seeing or hearing clearly. no offense meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhiteRaider Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by GonkH8er So you're willing to say that god is eternal and always has been, but you blatently deny the possibility of a creational point in the universe where everything came to be, without the aid of a supernatural force? What exactly was god doing in that eternity before he made man? Tell me something. How did time start? How are we moving forward in time if time was not planned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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