Promod 3.0 Released!

[Luc Solar]

I've never really been a gunner but...

 

Force and sabers are/were more to my liking, but in a 1.04-FFA guns are definetly the way to go. You can not stay competetive swinging the glowing stick. Seems that the only use for it comes when some newbie charges at you firing their blaster (=comitting suicide).

 

But in Promod, you really start Ph34ring jedis!!!

The jetpack is awesome, but using it means you get No Force. And fighting without force & a saber means that Jedis mop the floor with you in a second if you let them get close!

 

I love the fact that you have to take sabers seriously again!

 

Now gimme more Promod servers!

 

Perhaps we should make a thread that helps people find Promod servers. Put one up, post about it and I'll be there

[zerowingzero]

Actually jedi + force DOES NOT beat gunner + nf no matter what the gunner is holding, how long have you played the game for? If you dug a bit deeper you would see that lack of for powers does not make the gunner useless.

 

Take this screenshot for example: http://members.rogers.com/zwz/shot0013.jpg My and sinakaro were pure gunners, both had equal time, but look at the difference in scores. The rest were pure jedi, and Laz can be considered the best jk2 FF saberist, yet i still managed to kill him, with no speed, absorb, or push/pull. What the screenshot clearly indicates is that THE BEST PLAYERS WIN. peroid.

We all had different settings, some came out on top and some didnt. Please try to fully apreciate the mod before you judge.

 

As for flag capping, i've capped with the gunner before, it's not easy, but it's possible. Now i know that could have been a one time thing, but it shows you that pure guners arent ment to be falg runners, there role is support and defence. Because everyclass can't flag cap the mod sucks? What would be the point of the class system if they all had the same advantages and disadvantages?

 

Now i'm in the process of writing a gunner vs saberist guide to help those of you who don't know the stratagys and that all weapons arent useless, rather than just saying "wtf he can pull my gun from me so this mod sux"

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

I played JK1 because I loved using Force and Guns together, that is why I bought JK2. I DID NOT BUY JK2 FOR THE SABER

 

This mod takes away the reason I bought JK2, so as a result I have no interest in playing it.

 

Oh and my post was specifically geared towards the only gametype I ever play, ie CTF. In FFA the idea is to kill the opponent so obviously a Gunner will have an advantage since they can just keep their distance. But in CTF the person who wins is the person who moves fastest.

[mrlove]

It´s so easy to judge...just relax wait and see if some servers get this mod running and play it for a few months come back here then we can judge the game if we still want to.

[Rad Blackrose]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

I played JK1 because I loved using Force and Guns together, that is why I bought JK2. I DID NOT BUY JK2 FOR THE SABER

 

This mod takes away the reason I bought JK2, so as a result I have no interest in playing it.

 

Oh and my post was specifically geared towards the only gametype I ever play, ie CTF. In FFA the idea is to kill the opponent so obviously a Gunner will have an advantage since they can just keep their distance. But in CTF the person who wins is the person who moves fastest.

 

By god, you have repeated yoruself time and bloody time again. The solution is rather simple: Don't f***ing play it, and shut the f*** up. I'm sick and tired of *******s like you who think that because the system is not to your every whim, that you whine, bitch, and complain. After that little stint, the entire game is nerf.

 

It is clusterf***s like you that caused the game to be nerfed to the point it is at now. Artifex is doing one hell of a job creating the best medium available while LucasArts and Raven sit on their hands. I don't give two s***s and a f*** if you don't play ProMod. That is one less person I have to hear bitching because he didn't get his way.

 

And for the note, it is pretty damn even between gunners and saberists in CTF. So here is something for you:

 

 

/angry rant due to idiot finished

[Toonces]

That's very true zwz. I was lucky enough to have been part of the beta team (sorta) durring the final phase of the Beta, and one thing really stuck into my mind...Balance! If your a gunner and run into a Jedi of equal skill level, you can essentually fight each other to a draw. Same with a Hybred. It's all about skill and strategy, not luck or twitchy reflexes. I'm not the master at JO, far from it, but I was able to frequently kill Laz(he IS the best) through carefully planned strategies, and when he could out think me, he wiped the floor with me (which was frequently )

 

It's also definatly balanced for team play. It's pretty hard to capture the flag as a lone pure gunner, but it's just as difficult doing so as a lone Jedi. With 1.4 you could charge in as a "One Man Army" and completely dominate the game by yourself, now it takes strategy and teamwork to capture the flag, as it should be

 

What Promod 3.0 has essentually done is take the core JO game, and transform it into what it should have been from the start, a class based game where skill and strategy really matters, and not just who controls the Fleche

 

I respect that it's not your cup of tea Det, have fun with 1.4

[Moradivh]

In a pure Saber VS guns faceoff, I promise you that no-force jetpack gunfighters can EASILY stand toe-to-toe with Jedi. If anything the gunners have a slight advantage over saber users, even with the lack of force and increased saber damage, though I can't be positive about this without more research.

 

I AM positive that gunners absolutely mop the floor in duel gametypes, FFA's and team FFA's. Time and time again I have seen gunners come out with top scores when fighting the most experienced force-wielding saberists in promod today. This is especially the case in duels where the Jedi has nowhere to hide from their superior firepower. Make no mistake: as a gunner you have tremendous destructive potential at your fingertips.

 

However, CTF is another beast entirely. I can understand how die-hard force gunners from the vanilla game feel jipped at the apparent slowness and thrown-around-like-rag-doll feel of their preferred class in promod. I mean, why does the guy with the TWIN ROCKETS STRAPPED TO HIS BACK have to be the slowest-moving character class in the game? Granted, in a defensive role gunners are still amazingly useful, but many vanilla players naturally want to continue their CTF careers as a gunner AND a flag runner. These guys don't want to be forced into a defensive role, or forced into using a saber just so they can compete in the flag-capping.

 

Promod's compromise for this is hybrid classes. Don't underestimate them -- despite their slightly-slower firing rate and lvl 2 force powers, hybrids make EXTREMELY GOOD FLAG RUNNERS. I have seen people do unbelievably cool things with hybrids in CTF -- they are NOT weak, they are NOT outclassed by straight Jedi or gunners. Keep in mind that many level 2 force powers have been strengthened in promod for the very reason of making hybrids more powerful. They may well be the most effective class to use in CTF, and definitely compete in all other gametypes too.

 

But... the fact remains that hybrids are a tiny bit weaker than the CTF builds hardcore players use in the vanilla game. So basically no matter where diehard gunners go, they're going to feel the anguish of the nerf stick in promod. Their guns aren't as all-powerful, their force isn't as strong, and they're gonna feel withdrawl from this, unmanned even. This is bad, I know. And I feel for all you gunners out there who were hoping for new and instantaneous opportunities to kick ass in promod, and instead got brutally nerfed in every way.

 

All I can say to these guys is this: continue voicing your suggestions, and with some intelligence show us what you mean. Artifex hasn't totally finished his designs for CTF yet -- they work, arguably better than vanilla CTF, but there's more adjustments to be made. So don't give up. We're not as closed-minded as you'd believe.

 

When you offer your ideas remember that Art's trying to balance his mod for more than just CTF. Striaght gunners already have an advantage in most duel maps, and are incredibly dangerous in FFA/TFFA. Try not to suggest things that will tip the balance of power forever in favor of one class or another. I know many of you feel that a saberist should NOT be able to beat gunner ever in a million years, but remember that this is supposed to be a mod with different CLASSES, sorta like the Aliens vs Marines balance in AvP.

 

Also, try to get at least a half-dozen hours of promod experience before you start writing anti-mod propaganda and emailing Artifex with death-threats. The vast majority of promod's changes are subtle and need to be experienced to be understood. Consider trying every class for at least one game session (Jedi, gunners AND hybrids). If you can't enjoy the mod enough to do the BARE MINIMUM of play for voicing an intelligent opinion, then yeah: the mod's not for you, and doesn't need you anyway.

 

And finally, NEVER make ANY judgements about class balance after fighting Lazarous!!!! He's just way way better at the game than you, no matter what class either of you is using.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

 

By god, you have repeated yoruself time and bloody time again. The solution is rather simple: Don't f***ing play it, and shut the f*** up. I'm sick and tired of *******s like you who think that because the system is not to your every whim, that you whine, bitch, and complain. After that little stint, the entire game is nerf.

 

It is clusterf***s like you that caused the game to be nerfed to the point it is at now. Artifex is doing one hell of a job creating the best medium available while LucasArts and Raven sit on their hands. I don't give two s***s and a f*** if you don't play ProMod. That is one less person I have to hear bitching because he didn't get his way.

 

And for the note, it is pretty damn even between gunners and saberists in CTF. So here is something for you:

 

[Edit: I don't think we need to see your immature pictures more than necessary]

 

/angry rant due to idiot finished

 

You're telling me to get a clue? That's rich. I'll make this simple for even you (btw, if you can't use the word "idiot" in the correct context don't bother trying, it just makes you look stupid). So without further ado, here is a nice list to make things appear in black and white:

 

1) I never complained about 1.02, so there is no way I could have been responsible for the nerfings of 1.03

 

2) I never complained about 1.03, so there is no way I could have been responsible for the nerfings of 1.04

 

3) I did complain about 1.04, but I GOT OVER IT

 

4) I'm trying to not play mods until all matters of an expansion pack are resolved one way or the other, for all I know Raven/Lucasarts could alter the gameplay again, I want things to be finalised before I abandon hope altogether

 

5) I'm offering my OPINION, you are offering obscene insults in an otherwise reasonably mature and calm thread, so to quote you very neatly "Get a Clue"

 

6) I play JK2 because I liked the combination of Force and Guns that JK1 offered, as a result Promod isn't to my liking. However, Artifex has expressed in the past that he is trying to cater to everyone if possible. By simple laws of predicate logic, I am included in the set of "everyone", so my opinions are still valid

 

7) Artifex and I are on good terms now, and i'd thank you if you wouldn't try and provoke me into stirring up trouble

 

8) If you really don't give "two s***s and a f***" if I don't like Promod, why exactly are you responding to my post in such a violent and immature fashion?

 

9) I'm left wondering if these forums have a swear filter (I myself have never bothered to test this), as i'm curious whether the censorship in your post indicates at least some minor measure of self-control

 

10) In the last thread I was asked If i'd had a chance to play Promod 3 yet and what I thought (this was after the CTF beta-testing), I said that I hadn't. Well now I have. Don't you think its appropriate for me to post my opinions after actually experiencing the game, since I have vocally expressed concerns in the past?

 

11) You refer to "clusterf***s" like me (very eloquent use of our language btw) being responsible for the game being so nerfed, I reiterate "Get a Clue". Promod is a MOD, this is indicated by the word "mod" being contained within the name and having no trailing characters. The state of 1.02, 1.03 and 1.04 have no bearing on my opinion for Promod. I'm not a huge fan of 1.04, but that doesn't make me automatically like Promod. I'm exhibiting what is known by some as "Rational Thought", I suggest you look into this one day.

 

12) Toonces, I thank you for your response, you have the mature attitude this community needs.

 

ciao

[Doctor Shaft]

After playing promod for about ten minutes, here are some thoughts.

 

Actually, my brother was playing while i watched. I told him what to do, which was strap on the jetpack and use... the bryar pistol.

 

The effect was great. With no force powers, and against virtually all jedi, my brother, who is not experienced at this game at all, managed to do what he should have been able to do... win.

 

The guns vs saber factor is not gone. It's not in favor of the saberist. When used correctly, and frequently, that jetpack makes all the difference, just like the episode ii i would say. Sure it's not as fast, but if you leap into the air and fly around enough, you can give the jedi a run for his money.

 

Also, playing as a saber wielder, you have to actually, well, pretty good at aiming and moving fast. A mistake a majority of the jedi players were making was not using force speed, or just swinging like crazy men. Gunners, being force to have patience and aim, will do well in this mod, they just won't have the uber own speed advantage and jump abilities, along with anti force capabilities, which basically broke down the game into a high adrenaline quake game. Fun, but very simple.

 

Anyway, within five minutes, my brother, with little reflexes, but putting his slow jetpack to good use, made short work of many of the players. With a bryar pistol. Yeah, I know those people must suck then, but still, I'd say gunners still have their offensive power. They just can't carry it the same vast distances as they used to.

 

Gunners will most likely be pissed because they are no longer gods. Saberists have the speed advantage, but remember they have to still be extremely precise on the aiming and distance. Gunners can still get to all the places they need to, and fire off weapons that often have more firepower than ever now. It seems the balance is good. We'll see, it is the 3.0 build, and we're still missing the extra force powers, and whatever tweaks artifex has planned.

 

Other than that, people, we need to get more servers up. No offense artifex, but your server isn't doing the trick for me. My ping is like 200 there. We need people in more locations or faster servers, whatever. Start putting them up people.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

I see what you are saying Doctor Shaft, you've made some good clear points with examples to back them up. I can see how for the average gunner and most saberists Promod may be the answer. But its the high-speed, high-adrenaline firefights which I play the game for.

 

Just so you know, i've never seen anyone manage to be a one-man-army in CTF (basejk) unless their opponents are essentially a bunch of "clueless newbs". Even a half-arsed attempt at defence can slow down a reasonably good player to the extent that he needs at least one teammate alongside to clear the way somewhat.

 

My main frustration in CTF is the lack of teamwork, not the lack of requirement for teamwork, but the fact that nobody cooperates.

[Moradivh]

To everyone:

 

Okay, I just finished writing an extremely long post above, and I'm worried it's gonna be blown over by a stupid flame war. Please don't skip my post just because tempers have flared okay? I don't want to be ignored just because I posted in a bad moment. It's happened before and it pisses me off when people are distracted by stupid stuff like that.

 

My subject is the balance of Jedi/sabers VS gunners VS hyrbids in promod CTF. I think I have some very valid points to add to this argument. I know it's a long read, I know your head hurts from last night, but please try to take your mind off of flaming for 5 minutes and give it a chance. Thankee.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

Moradivh, i agree with your post to an extent but there are a few things I should point out...

 

I'm a die-hard force-gunner, but i'm not a Flag Runner, i'm first and foremost defence/midfield. From over 6 months of exclusive CTF experience I can say that Defence needs to be as fast as, if not faster than the attackers. A rage + speeder will have capped by time you have picked up the nearest gun if you don't have a way of moving fast.

 

The round-trip on Warring Factions takes 20 seconds for an expert Rage + Speeder. ie they won't run out of rage or speed at all during that time.

 

I strongly object to the following stereotype:

 

"These guys don't want to be forced into a defensive role, or forced into using a saber just so they can compete in the flag-capping."

 

I'm an effective defender because i'm fast, and because I use guns, regardless of whether the enemy attackers are shooting back or not. If I can't kill them before they leave the range of my weapons they've scored, UNLESS I have force speed and/or rage, In which case I can start chasing. Once the enemy flag carrier has escaped the defense, its simply a matter of them waiting in their base until they can score.

[Guardian Omega]

Ah yes, jedi vs. gunners. It's quite possible, I have killed Laz with various weapons, notably the golan. Here ZWZ, a tip you can write on your guide.......

 

The key to win is jetpack fuel conversation. You know the art of bunny hopping? Master it and the art of fuel conservation is deadly. This will give you time to shoot him, while a jedi's only option is to bunny hop with speed or not. Use that range to your advantage, don't pick a fight with a gunner close range, unless you know what you're doing. I've beaten jedi with speed with this technique even. Oh yes, if you are pulled down, jetting up helps and spam away! I've beaten many jedi with this technique and even Laz in some cases. Plus, I sometimes beat jedi with speed, Blind Moradin(or was it Moradivh?) can testify to that.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

what about speed AND rage?

 

You can reach insanely fast speeds using the combination of the two, and nobody except another speedrager can catch up.

[ryudom]

i just played for another 4 hours heh, and i have to say its seems pretty dang balanced. whats this about people being slow with weapons? it might exist but i didn't notice any slow downs. and also i usually don't play with guns, but i could still kill tons of jedis.

 

also, i like how the saber in ff becomes more usefull. with the added damage, duck, and the single tab kick, i find more nf skills are required then before which, imo, is excellant.

 

thats right too, gunners may not ahve abosrb, but they have duck!

[zerowingzero]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

what about speed AND rage?

 

You can reach insanely fast speeds using the combination of the two, and nobody except another speedrager can catch up.

 

 

Why catch up if they are helpless to be pulled? you can stay in place or run towards them while pulling them, to close the distance or to allow some of the more damage inficting classes to take care of them. Yes, pure gunners can't do this, but they shouldent expect to. That's why you shouldent just use lv3 force or just lv4 guns in all situations.

 

And about using weapons and force, you can still do that, but you arent as fast as a pure jedi and you don't have as much firepower as a gunner, if one stratagy was better than the rest, why would anyone use any other one?

[Wolf Devil]

Thanks alot for pointing out that I suck, Rad :\. But he's right, this is alot better than 1.04 since it provides balance between gunner and jedi, not people who want to use everything no matter what so that the gunner ALWAYS has the advantage. This mod makes it so that guns and sabers are balanced with not only each other, but themselves (though I'm somewhat questionable bout gunner vs gunner). I wouldn't know nothin about hybrids other than I fought one last night and he was good! And I was a pure Jedi, usin every trick in the book. Now sure, gunners are technically slower than the Jedi and do need some of the evasive manuevers (I should know, I've begged Artifex over and over tryin to get him to implement it), and during non-Jedi battles, alot of force powers are useless (I've begged him for more force power and stronger force too) but quit lookin at what ProMod makes RIGHT instead of what it makes WRONG (which, in my opinion, is nothing). I, as a gunner, have never needed force powers other than jump and push/pull, and jetpack can replace jump and level 4 repeater the push . Though I hardly ever use Jetpack in Art's server since the damn lag packets make me an easier target for the Jedi, pushing/pulling (F*** YOU LAZAROUS!!!!!!). Actually, from my point of view, the current balance is in favor of th gunner: Gunner > Hybrid > Jedi > Sith. But I'll have to admit it's more based upon skill, really... My problem is I suck . Now Detric, if you're really a defensive gunner, try making some level 4 guns and going along with a Jedi/Sith to keep his ass from gettin pummeled by another gunner, or any Jedi who's waitin for him... And you can always sacrafice yourself for the good of the team (runnin in, guns blazin, tryin to destroy everything in your path and thinking you'll come out alive like a newb).... You'd be suprised how often you can kill someone like that. Ofcourse theres always room for strategic fighting.. lay some mines or det packs and hope that any other gunner on the team is doin the same just incase somebody goes the alternate route from the one youre holdin off. As stated above, I suck and chances are this wont help you none, but then again it just might help since I'm not in the heat of battle and I actually have time to think things out.. *shrugs* Oh well, just thought I'd add my 2 cents.. *looks back at message* Er.. My buck

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

Originally posted by zerowingzero

 

 

Why catch up if they are helpless to be pulled? you can stay in place or run towards them while pulling them, to close the distance or to allow some of the more damage inficting classes to take care of them. Yes, pure gunners can't do this, but they shouldent expect to. That's why you shouldent just use lv3 force or just lv4 guns in all situations.

 

And about using weapons and force, you can still do that, but you arent as fast as a pure jedi and you don't have as much firepower as a gunner, if one stratagy was better than the rest, why would anyone use any other one?

 

Therein is the problem, teamwork is essential, which just doesn't happen on public servers, people will always play the "class" they like best, instead of the class that is required to win the game.

[zerowingzero]

True, but would a clan vs clan match work?

[ryudom]

man i really wanna play this lazarus guy... can't get on artifax's server though. well i couldn't b4 anyway

[Lathain Valtiel]

I think the server has not been updated with the ProMod that is on jkii.net yet.

[Moradivh]

I'm sorry if you feel stereotyped Det, but I'm pretty sure a good portion of CTFer's did expect to do some serious flag-capping with the new jetpack. True, maybe you and a few in the CTF elite had hoped for something else... that jets would be better for defensive flag interception. So yeah, it was bad of me not to mention that in my incredibly long speech. But whatever, you get the jist. Thanks for the correction, but try not to be so touchy. I'm not trying to write you off or anything.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

I see what you are saying Doctor Shaft, you've made some good clear points with examples to back them up. I can see how for the average gunner and most saberists Promod may be the answer. But its the high-speed, high-adrenaline firefights which I play the game for.

 

Just so you know, i've never seen anyone manage to be a one-man-army in CTF (basejk) unless their opponents are essentially a bunch of "clueless newbs". Even a half-arsed attempt at defence can slow down a reasonably good player to the extent that he needs at least one teammate alongside to clear the way somewhat.

 

My main frustration in CTF is the lack of teamwork, not the lack of requirement for teamwork, but the fact that nobody cooperates.

 

Good points, Detritic. I agree with what you're saying about the one man army.

 

Your frustration with CTF stems, unfortunately, from the very aspect of CTF that you like the most: the speed. People don't cooperate in jk2 CTF games because the game moves so fast that they don't have time to cooperate, communicate and coordinate (do I feel a teamwork axiom being born here?). With people being able to travel clear across a CTF map in a matter of 10 seconds or so, anyone actually trying to coordinate some kind of tandem attack or defense will end up watching the game just fly by them.

 

That's why I've tried to add some elements that slow down the pace. The free force field generators to gunners with level 3 gadgets is going to help this a ton, along with only the jedi having access to speed-ramping force powers like speed and speed/rage. Hopefully, this will give both teams the time to come up with and implement more thoughtful strategies.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

well lets see, there's no point being a hybrid because if you choose a force power you need as high a level as possible in it, this stops you using higher than level 1 guns + gadgets.

 

If you're a gunner and you have the jetpack, then you can't have maxed out force absorb, so in other words you are completely defenseless if you actually decide to use the jetpack. If you want any weaponry of any use you automatically forfeit any useful force powers. The only way for a gunner to be safe is to have an Ysalimari, which as I recall, not many CTF maps actually feature.

Sorry, man. I can't help but disagree here. A gunner is far, far from defenseless without Absorb. What is it you're worried about not being able to Absorb? Push/Pull? You can either just stay out of range or just duck to be totally immune. Grip? Shoot the gripper in the face with that level 4 Golan you're toting. That's 150 damage that says to him, "I don't need Absorb." Lightning? That's hardly going to compare with the damage rate of a level 4 Repeater's primary fire, which the jedi won't be able to repel while using Lightning. Speed? Rage? Explosives are a Gunners best freind here. Several well placed detpacks or tripmines will waste any speed/rager. Mind Trick? That's what the Seeker Drones and Sentry Turrets are for. They can hide from you, but not from a machine that has no mind to trick. Watch for their shield to light up from the blaster shots and send some rockets off to greet them.

If you're a saberist then you can max out your chosen force powers the same as before, the only difference is you can't use weapons, so in other words there are no changes for the saberists amongst you. Sabers + Force easily beats Guns + No-Force, there's no contest.

Sorry man, you're wrong here. Current play is showing gunners ahead in all the gametypes, but not by much.

As for the 10-second timer on /kill that's bloody rediculous. What's the damn point? I may as well just shoot myself in the feet or throw myself off a ledge and be done with it. What's worse is that it doesn't keep you up to date with how long until the suicide actually happens.

I agree on the countdown notification. Consider that on the list for 3.1. It'll make a good addition. The ten second delay on the \kill command is something I've explained before. Suiciding should not be advantageous in any gametype. At least if you jump off a cliff or shoot yourself in the foot then it will take longer than hitting a key that you bound to "kill". Using up all of your force power in a CTF game and then suiciding is just an exploit of poor gameplay programming on the part of the original designers.

This mod feels like it caters yet again to the whiners that made 1.03 and 1.04 happen. I'm a Gunner but I use the Saber A LOT for the agility moves, now its impossible for a Gunner to use the evasive capabilities of a saberist, making flag-carriers sitting ducks effectively. The Jet-Pack speed is so slow that any half-decent gunner can shoot you out of the air.

The changes made in Promod do not cater to "whiners" in any way. Someone who "whines" about changes they think need to be made to a game does so to make up for their own lack of skill. Promod 3.0 enhances the reliance on skill. It does not detract from it. People who whine will not like Promod. Promod leaves no room for errors or poor judgement. If you lose, it's because you didn't play as well as your opponent, not because "they got lucky", or "they're spamming XX move" which is unbeatable.

 

I remind you of Promod's Statement of Purpose:

There are no fluke victories in Promod

 

I now add to that another:

Whiners Beware

[Sam]

Hey Atifex I cant get on your server for some reason every time i try it says mismatch bajesk/promod. whats wrong