Promod 3.0 Released!

[Toonces]

I agree with Moradivh, I usually play as a Jedi, but the other day I was on the server as a Gunner and I tore things up. It's important to use duck to counter pulls from Jedi, also, if they are able to knock you down, fire that Jetpack up immediatly and he wont have a chance to get you

 

On the fuel bug, I actually noticed this but since I came in late in the beta I figured Art was aware of that. I shouldnt assume things so much.

 

Oh, I did come across a rather slight bug, doesn't affect gameplay at all but when you load up Promod 3.0 with the setup tab in game you are unable to access the setup tab again, either at the main menu, or once in game.

[Moradivh]

I'll admit it's harder for vanilla gunners to cope with the promod changes... the lack of force powers, getting used to the jetpack and dealing with the new and "dangerous" lightsaber makes for a steeper learning curve, while saberists can continue the way they were, to an extent -- I mean, they've been trying to fight gunners with SEVERE disadvantages for months... plus promod naturally appealed to saberists in its earlier stages, so they've likely been practicing with the mod more than most gunners. It comes as no surprise that the average saberist in promod is more numerous, better prepared initially, and perhaps more skilled than the average gunner in promod.

 

I'm open to suggestions about solving this, but I still think it's silly to claim that Jedi generally overpower the gunner. I suspect the mod will catch on with or without the support of every elite vanilla gunner in JO, and the current edge of "practice" the saberist has will soon pass.

 

And don't be condescending: I DO mean when both opponents are equally skilled. I also know "skilled" is a relative term dependent largely on one's personal viewpoint. But having seen both gunners AND saberists at the highest level of play, kicking unholy ass on EVERY map, I don't think a need for nerfing or buffing of either class is in order. Now... maybe a new uber-move will be discovered in the next few weeks that will tip the balance in favor of one class or another, and THEN changes might have to be made. But as it stands I don't think any changes are necessary.

 

Still, I'll also admit that some maps favor one class over another, slightly... or at least more than vanilla JKO, where every player is exactly the same and classes don't exist. But ya know what? I can live with a slight map advantage from time to time, so long as they don't ALL favor one side more than the other. Prove that they do, and something will have to be fixed.

 

Plenty of sports function around one team having the advantage, and then the other team having it the next round. To win, one side must try to BREAK the other side despite the disadvantage. The same could be said for promod, perhaps.

 

Anyways, I believe ArtifeX is trying to come up with new maps that are more perfectly balanced for the class system. Until they're available the super-duper-win-at-all-costs people might feel "forced" to leech every map advantage they can find. Whatever floats your boat. But even if things get really bad and every player winds up using the class for that map every time, promod will STILL be more entertaining than the vanilla version. At least classes will be flipped around between map changes. JO has no classes to be flipped, because one build wins all.

 

Oh, and pull is very counterable. I'd say force speed is even deadlier alot of the time. But keep practicing. I'm happy to hear you're liking the mod so much. To play 25 games in 2 days you must love it or be completely insane, like me!

[Wolf Devil]

I've found the difference between gunner and Jedi/Sith is more or less like it should be: The Jedi who must be patient to get a precise aim so as not to entirely blow it. The Sith who waits in the shadows the comes out of nowhere (suggested only for the very cheap). And ofcourse the gunner who should get out there and blast away at anything that moves. Last night I went into a game with only one person and a bot in it, then eventually somebody came in called "The_Bounty_Hunter" and attempted many many times to start blowing away the Jedi in the level. He told me he believed that the Jedi were overrated... I agreed, then mentioned the fact that so are bounty hunters. He went Sith (and renamed himself "Sith_Warrior") and he soon agreed as he was very tired of the one hit yellow kills i was giving him and then started performing the same work on Mithrandir who went gunner. It's all a matter of findin out what your best with and then bein it. Though if you'd rather be somthing else (ie, me. I wanna be a Jedi/Sith though I'm alot better with guns) you should try 1 on #. # meaning as many bots as the level and your comp can support. Your best bet is downloaded skins and models with bot support as all the normal models are hybrids... which may be good if defending vs hybrids, but still a hybrid IS a hybrid, not a gunner nor saberist alone therfor you may not be fully prepare for sombody that is......... I forget where I was goin with this, but I think it could be helpful to anybody interested or simply wants to hear my ideas (yeah right ).

[Wolf Devil]

Originally posted by Kettch

I think pure jedi shouldn't start with 100 hp and 25 shields...

 

I think jedi should start with only 100 hp and no shields

 

That's insane!!! If anything it's gunners who should have less shields, as they'll have more chances to get shields as full Jedi/Sith can only have lvl1 items and only pick up medkit and small shield recharge... And besides that, it's not like 25 shields can make too much of a dif

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

If you are going to state an opinion, please phrase it as an opinion

 

"promod will STILL be more entertaining than the vanilla version"

 

I've done my best to do the same. In my opinion the vanilla game is more fun, the pace is higher and there is far more of an adrenaline rush.

 

Anyway... From the maps i've played:

 

Bespin Streets = Gunner advantage

Deathstar = for the most part Saber advantage

Star Destroyer = for the most part Saber advantage

Massassi Temple = Gunners would have the advantage if their were more ammo lying around, as it stands there's not much you can do with 6 rockets except wait to die after using them.

Oh and that Nar trash compacter map, Gunners generally have the advantage but the areas of low ceilings are very painful once the saberist starts pulling you out of the air.

 

Believe me i'm been TRYING to find the experts everyone seems to be talking about, Artifex's server rejects the version of the mod I downloaded, I get kicked from another for winning, and the third has health and shield items disabled. Its kind of hard to get a balanced view of the actual mod when all the servers are so screwed up.

[Artem]

omg... someone finally tribes'ed JK2... I LOVE YOU ARTIFEX!!!!!

[Moradivh]

That sounds about right. The craziest map I find is Star Destroyer. A Jedi with force speed turns into Godzilla. You want an adrenaline rush, there it is.

 

Bespin is a little gun-friendly, but not when compared to its vanilla version. Small wonder saberists hide in their little duel servers instead of playing there.

 

Oh, and add "in my opinion" to everthing I've ever said on these forums. Silly me. ;(

[t3rr0r]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

Bespin Streets = Gunner advantage

Deathstar = for the most part Saber advantage

Star Destroyer = for the most part Saber advantage

Massassi Temple = Gunners would have the advantage if their were more ammo lying around, as it stands there's not much you can do with 6 rockets except wait to die after using them.

Oh and that Nar trash compacter map, Gunners generally have the advantage but the areas of low ceilings are very painful once the saberist starts pulling you out of the air.

 

Believe me i'm been TRYING to find the experts everyone seems to be talking about, Artifex's server rejects the version of the mod I downloaded, I get kicked from another for winning, and the third has health and shield items disabled. Its kind of hard to get a balanced view of the actual mod when all the servers are so screwed up.

detritic... turn on auto download.

 

and i beg to differ about some of the maps...

star destroyer = gunner advantage

ffa yavin = fairly even

nar shaddaa compactor = fairly even

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

I disagree about star destroyer, the ceiling height is very low, and there are ridges and arches, it makes it impossible for a gunner to reach some decent evasion speeds.

[t3rr0r]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

I disagree about star destroyer, the ceiling height is very low, and there are ridges and arches, it makes it impossible for a gunner to reach some decent evasion speeds.

i came in second with 30 something kills today as a gunner (and that was without the flechette)... pretty gunner friendly (jedi have nowhere to evade either).

[Moradivh]

I have to side with Detritic on this one. T3rr0r have you seen a good speed-rager, or even just a good speeder, on Star Destroyer? We should play sometime and compare notes.

 

But the reason the map is bad for gunners ISN'T because of the low ceiling. If all the ceilings were high then gunners would waste the Jedi every time, but any good jetpack bunny hopper can still navigate a low ceiling. And the ridges and arches impede a Jedi trying to escape from Flechette balls just as much as a gunner trying to escape from a saber.

 

The problem is that all the rooms on SD are so SMALL, and most of the action happens on the top floor anyway. All a Jedi has to do is switch on speed and do circles around the top floor -- you've got all your little shield and health packs right along your "flight path," and because there are so many entrances and the rooms are so small, gunners don't have time to react to a speeding Jedi that suddenly enters the room. You make a kill about every 2 seconds if there's a lot of gunners playing, cut through them like sheep.

 

The speed tactic even works well against other Jedi on that map, though it takes longer. And I usually skip saberists and score against the gunners I can kill with one quick swing, then move on to the next.

 

Anyways, it's a testiment to promod's balancing that map advantages are still so debatable.

[Wolf Devil]

I believe for the most part Detric is correct. The Star Destroyer is good for any Jedi or Sith simply because of speed/rage/mind trick. I completely suck in ProMod, however in the game mentioned earlier I beat The_Bounty_Hunter quite easily with mind trick and yellow saber style, and the two Jedi were not aware of the trump system so I got around 14 kills (well.. I DID say I suck). But even so, a good mine layer can blow a Jedi right outta there. I disagree about deathstar though. The gunners have usually been in the lead in that level when in Art's server.... but then again, come to think of it, I never really have played the deathstar level without Lazarous bein in there . And I've done pretty well in Nar Hideout (or what you refer to as Nar compacter map)... again, talking about the same ones that I played last night and in a less crowded Art's server

[Doctor Shaft]

Well, it seems the major complaint is that the gunner is just too slow, that the fast paced, adrenaline rush is gone unless you're a jedi.

 

I love the game as is, but at the same time, I'm all about supporting people who want their style of play in a mod. Why? So there's still people around to play.

 

 

Perhaps for the next version, the jetpack should be given a horizontal power as well, i.e., sort of jet like speed on the ground, of course keeping the fuel gauge.

 

As is right now however, gunners are extremely dangerous, and for the most part, if you play your cards right, a jedi actually stands more a chance of dying than a gunner. True, rushing jedi in small rooms seems like a disadvantage for gunners, but if you got the right guns, the right aim, and the right guts, I've seen gunners tear people up. Without the speed. The saber still has those clusmy, cool looking, but otherwise uninspired and very, well, basic attacks. Of course, I guess we really can't give the saber strikes more spunk, until then, they'll always be very clunky, and requiring an aim that sometimes goes beyond reason, especially when chasing, taking to the air, or generally anything that doesn't involve head to head, clashing combat.

 

Oh well, just a few things to think about. Until then, promod 3.0 is still a great deal of fun. Some people like vanilla, I personally get no joy from it and hope that a constant flow of people play 3.0. Otherwise, should a next version be done after artifex has rested, played the game himself, enjoyed himself, and otherwise decides to do it, a few things should be considered.

 

- some people, especially the gunners, want their speed back in some capacity.

 

- I already talked about clunky sabers, and swings that are really more useful in anything except chasing gunners... it can be done, but come on, you know that sometimes you should have had the hit, but those stupid swing motions really screw you up. but that's a deeper than simply modding it. That's the core of the game, animation and stuff, can't really address this.

 

- some people want to start with their guns. I wouldn't mind this. while having them go after their stuff was a safe way to start, i think the general concensus now is that speed is key, and i don't think anyone will stand around after they spawn. guns are guns, i'd prefer the challenge of spawning right in the middle of heavy fire.

 

- new force powers would be nice. but even better would be a serious look into how the force works right now. but chances are, you can't get much more complicated with push/pull than it is now, as simplistic and sometimes random as it is. lightning is still on the outs. i mentioned giving it the ability to stun, or something but again, that would probably be more than a minor modification.

 

- i think gunners don't really care about getting new things, just so long as they got their adrenaline rush back.

 

 

Even though I spout all these things, 3.0 is still the thing for me, and I will continue to play, just gotta find a server that has a good ping, and then i also have to get a better video card for the holidays. lightsaber combat simply won't work in your favor if your frames are constantly switching between 16-24, sometimes higher, but then dropping low as soon as the action gets hot, and your ping is around 80. At least hasn't been well for me. This is especially needed chasing gunners, the precise aim you need gets annoying. Light stance doesn't help much against them either unless they sit there. Regardless, have fun playing. I know I'm learning some new tricks here and there.

[Wolf Devil]

Actually I have a suggestion for lightning and made a suggestion for seeing to Art already

[Moradivh]

Fantastic post Doc. I wholeheartedly agree with pretty much everything in it.

 

I'm pretty sure a few promod gunners would insist they get a GREAT adrenaline rush already, but I know what you mean. The jetpack and sheer destruction potential is cool, but it's not the psychotic fast-thinking insanity you feel when you're tripping on force speed and rage. Unfortunately many of the best ways to fix this are probably beyond the community's willingness to accept, or beyond ArtifeX's ability to code without spending 3 years tweaking the system. He's only one man after all.

 

The two most immediate ideas I have are a very fast forward thrust to the jetpack, and/or making hybrid classes more appealing as a super-fast and deadly warrior (they may be already, but like I said earlier, the only people I've seen using hybrids so far are n00bs).

 

Sadly both of these might require a hefty restructuring of the current balance system, so they may not be feasible. I know ArtifeX was considering a jetpack forward thrust at one point, but haven't heard him comment on it recently.

 

For me, speed isn't everything. Even though I play a Jedi I don't need to do it at psychotic speeds to get satisfaction, not by a long shot. But speed CAN be helluva fun, and I'd rather not see it denied to any one class or group of players.

 

On the other hand, there's the whole "teamwork can't work at those speeds" debate. But I won't get into that, I've said way too much already to classify myself as a lurker.

[Wolf Devil]

Personnally, I'd like things slowed down... no not lag. I'm talking movie-ish (the first ones and ep 1, not ep2! way too short by saber means). I'd like there to be time to taunt your opponent, deflect your opponents attack and not attack, yourself, acting coky(cursed language filters...) then a sudden rush of saber moves (not to mention a fantastic light show) and then backing off prepareing for your next strike... And for the record if you download the cinematic saber sfx pack you CAN sorta get the feel as being in the movie as now blocking is actually possible... As for guns, yeah, speed's good, but the only speed that can be found as a gunner is level 4 guns, however getting to a speed that makes your mind practically explode is only when youre a gunner, gots lots of ammo and are so poed at the saberist that you go balistic shooting in every direction possible... during which time you're open to other gunners attacks or a quick fade&hit saberin... Mind trick plus creaping up on them/full speed rush at them, ala Blind Moridan.

 

And I highly object to the only people being hybrids newbs! While they do sacrafice power for variety, they are more resistant to saber and gun which can be useful... Rau The Conquerer (forget his whole name) was a hybrid and he kicked ass!! ... He went Jango-style though, since he was sick of my fade & hit and cheap kills... However the moment he went Jango style I high-tailed it outta there since Lazarous decided to show up... but my point is: Hybrids are not useless, nor are they all newbs.... nor am I ever gonna be one though you are right, hybrids could be a little stronger.. i mean during an all Jedi or all gun game they're ok, but a Jedi AND gun game is suicide

[Hekx]

Nice features for the Mod

 

But I think'll stick to basejk2 and JediMod

[IronJedi Kaga]

Originally posted by Toonces

 

That's really the major problem with the game (not promod) MP seems to be designed with the saber as an afterthought. 1.4 is basically Q3a with force powers. Take out the Lightsaber (which could have been coded by a mod team anyway) and you basically have Quake 3 with force powers. I don't want to play Q3a with force powers. Enter promod. This is what JKII MP should have been from the begining, Class based

 

 

I disagree that the MP should be class based. Not that there would be anything wrong with a class based MP option, but MP like in basejk2 would work with some simple modifications IMO.

 

The only things I think that need to be done to make basejk2 more equal would be some sligt modifications to the lightsaber. I think balance could be achieved if saber throw were upgraded so that it did two spins for 60 damage instead of one spin for 30 damage (perhaps dependent on sabe throw level). Another change that I feel would balance the game would be the ability for a well aimed lightsaber swing (and possibly throw but it might be too unbalancing) to not only cause damage, but to destroy the weapon that the target was carrying (if the facing issues were correct) leaving the target without a weapon until a new weapon was picked up or switched to.

[Wolf Devil]

I've suggested to Artifex that the destruction of weapons would be a good thing for lightning.. the only thing the Sith have for them is dark rage. Everybody wants to be out in the open, but none of the dark force powers do nothin no more, so I've suggested to Art that it should destroy weapons if all the gunner's shields were down. I've also suggested that lightning can destroy explosives from a certain arc, depending on level.

[ksk h2o]

the more I think of it, the more I see how balanced the game is right now.

 

unfortunately we do not have enough players.

 

I have a sad theory, and would like to see if people agree.

 

Most people nowadays are attracted to mods like force mod or jedimod (jediplus). These mods give you four sabers, so basically getting a hit in is damn lucky, an ever lasting fly device, or mega jacked up force powers... nothing aimed at making the game more balnced, more of cosmetic changes and things to make you even harder to kill (as if dying wasn't hard enough in vanilla). And aren't immediately drawn to a mod with little or no cosmetics but a MUCH better and realistic fighting system (imo).

 

I dont mind messing around with jedi mod, looks nice, and the wall scale jump and telefrag are also fun. But how often have I really enjoyed an all out FFA or duel on these mods.... uhm, never.

[/end sad theory]

 

I am having an absolute BLAST with promod right now. For the longest time I was looking for saber only servers bc I liked playing with sabers and using a saber on vanilla, on an all out server is, well, not very smart. Since I play "the other game" for pure adrenaline shooting experience, camping and telefragging, the main reason I play JKII and love it is of course the saber. I totally understand the players that really love full force and full guns since it is also a unique game in that sense, but I preferred the other gunning games when it came to gunning.... much better guns and dynamics.

 

Since promod was released, I have been squatting all out servers since the game is so darn fun now. Sure I get killed a LOT, and gunners slaughter a handful of jedi in a few seconds. But the new balance makes it so fun to play against both types gunners and saberists. I can't stress how much I love the saber fighting style now. You actually can do damage with the saber... I cant believe it. I mean I can use all three stances, given the situation, and actually kill people with aimed, timed saber swings. Hell, this kick whore (I) rarely kicks anymore since his uber-super-mega-powerfull feet are no longet the deadliest weapon in the galaxy.

 

So while I am sad, that not many people are playing promod right now, I think it is a matter of time untill the others try promod and start to like the new game balance (getting rid of "beta" might help... also getting a "saber and guns" gamesdomain or jolt server to host promod would be good).

 

I myself am addicted. Can't really play vanilla anymore. But one thing is certain, anyone coming into promod the first time is going to get seriously schooled for the first 10-15 mins. It is a slap in your face. But when you get used to it... oh the fun. Thanks Art.

[Wolf Devil]

Well put, ksk h20. Well put. *claps* It is indeed sad knowing people enjoy the ability to have sheer invincibility with no challenge to it, nor even a good way to die. Jedi Outcast has become the game of noobs, and even while Artifex has made such a wonderful mod, nobody wants it because it makes them feel like the frail little children they really are. JediMod, JediPLUS, Saberist Mod 1.2, ForceMod.. all pieces of crap compared to ProMod 3.0 and hardly anybody even truly sees it..... Present company accepted *looks at the looooooooooooooooong long line of post of people showing interest in ProMod*. It would be interesting to see Art integrate sith sabers, dual sabers and mode scaling into ProMod without it becoming cheap and pathetic. I'm happy with what we have now (even though I'm overly bitter cuz I absolutely suck at it ) ProMod brought back that same giddy feeling I first had when I experienced my first saber fight in the Pit vs tavion in SP and saw the slow mo deaths... Well, woulda if I wasn't so lagged and in the middle of a heated CTF..... and changeing my saber color..... The mod is great and I'd love for it to be the SBX 3.1 of Jedi Outcast, (er.. sorta...) though with any luck you wont stop at 3.1 . ProMod is the best thing to happen to JO. I wouldn't know about how bad 1.02 and 1.03 were since I didn't get mine til around late august or early september (I think) but I do know how good ProMod is even though im the worst player in the PM community, but the fact that I AM the worst player does mean somthin, since going onto the zone with a guaranteed game goin on was one hell of a snore fest . Anyways, I'm gonna bottomline this:

 

ProMod is a wonderful mod and you should tell everybody you know that plays JO or is plannin on getting JO for the computer, tell them about 3.0 as soon as they've decided it sucks... they'll apreciate it more that way . If anybody wants a NF saber only duel game some time, please PM me. Until then I think I'll just let Lazarous slaughter me awhile longer.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

Wolf Devil, your comment is inaccurate and downright insulting to those who are actually good at basejk.

 

I'm merely a *good* gunner and I had no trouble making a transition to promod, there are *loads* of better gunners than me. People don't want to make the transition because they prefer the high speed arenaline of full-force guns, not because they are afraid of losing. The people who i've seen embrace Promod from the basejk community are the clueless *newbs* who can't win in either.

[mrlove]

in a way its good that the noobs don´t use promod less swearing and only good players, so promod=noob filter hehe.

[Lathain Valtiel]

I take that as in insult Det.. I'm that Tabris Angelus chap, and I have the testicles to say I'm no n00b. Heh.

[Luc Solar]

Originally posted by mrlove

in a way its good that the noobs don´t use promod less swearing and only good players, so promod=noob filter hehe.

 

Hey...that's so true! I doubt I've heard a single n00bish comment á la "OMFG SCRIPTER! J00 SUX! FU Cheater! LAMER!!"

 

Everyone seems to be on a good mood while playing Promod.

 

'nuff said.

 

(Btw - I have just created a secret, patented MrLove-block, so you will pwn me no more! )