El Sitherino Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 personally i dont see much wrong with it other than maybe it getting into the wrong hands but that basically goes for anything right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-s/<itzo- Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 i oppose human cloning. its not our place as human beings to create human life forms other than reproduction. i mean what will cloning do for us. why don't we put more time and effort looking for cures of diseases like AIDs intead. something that will benefit our society. just leave human creation to GODs hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCanr2d2 Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I oppose it very much so. There is nothing right with human cloning, it basically voids everything that people have fought for over the last 100 or more years. The ability to be an individual, to be unique, and to express that as well. Once we make copies of ourselves, even if they are our children, it voids evolving into a better species. Do people not realise that humans aren't a static design, that they are forever evolving, changing...... Not to mention the legalities over the certain uses that people have for them, for medical purposes especially. Do we somehow not grant that clone a life, a name, just so that they can save someone else. You are depriving something else, which we would call human, the chance to be that, to have a life of their own. Or do people not look that deep into the whole situation, and look at the ethical, moral and legal ramifications of any situation with a clone......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Originally posted by -s/<itzo- its not our place as human beings to create human life forms other than reproduction. Cloning is reproduction. And don't look at clones like freaks - they cannot be better than a 98% copy of the source, due to a currently unsolveable problem with the cloning technique. Clones are not the same person as their host, and they can never be. I really don't get this unreasonable fear for the clones themselves a lot of people in here have. Fear the consequences, fear the technique, but for God's sake, clones are just as human as you and me. something that will benefit our society. I'll give you cloning that can benefit society: Stem cell research. You clone the usual way, except you don't insert the embryo in a womb, but in a bowl instead. There, you let it grow to about the size of 4 cells. No more is needed, no miracles or hidden tricks involved. These early cells have the ability to morph into any type of cell the body needs (only natural since they need to grow to a whole baby quickly). Look at Mr. Smith: Due to an unfortunate accident, his spine nerves are ripped apart, rendering him severely disabled. If we clone some of his cells backwards to the stem cell stage, and insert them into his spine, they can actually grow into nerve cells and heal him. That is no miracle, that is cloning healing people. There are a zillion of other possibilities for healing formerly incurable problems with this technique. But there's another alternative: Cyborgs. Yes, soon we could be able to use nanotechnology to solve much the same problems, only it'd result in a drasticly more mechanical person than we used to know. Imagine non-human circuits in your brain and polymer for your bones. It all rests on these two options. Which is the way to go? just leave human creation to GODs hands. Bah. Human reproduction has nothing to do with belief. It works fine without putting faith into a higher power. It's all chemicals and a bag of chips, just like you don't associate God with taking a leak or bending your knee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-s/<itzo- Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Originally posted by Cjais Cloning is reproduction. And don't look at clones like freaks - they cannot be better than a 98% copy of the source, due to a currently unsolveable problem with the cloning technique. Clones are not the same person as their host, and they can never be. reproduction and cloning is different. cloning is man made its artificial. its tampering with the natural process. thats like comparing ham with spam, it just ain't the same as the original. but thats not even my point. i mean why do we as human beings need clones of ourselves. i just think its unnecessary. I'll give you cloning that can benefit society: Stem cell research. You clone the usual way, except you don't insert the embryo in a womb, but in a bowl instead. There, you let it grow to about the size of 4 cells. No more is needed, no miracles or hidden tricks involved. These early cells have the ability to morph into any type of cell the body needs (only natural since they need to grow to a whole baby quickly). yeah, i've heard about this and it is very helpfull. but the process of cloning someone of yourself, that i oppose because i really don't see any point of it. it won't achieve anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted January 3, 2003 Author Share Posted January 3, 2003 stem cell research is why i think it is ok. i saw michael j. foxes presentation to the senate and man i started cryin cuz it was sad that the parkinsons literally knocked him out of his chair from the twitching and stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunClown Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I personally don't like human cloning and even animal cloning. Clones are indeed not perfect and almost all if not all have some sought of abmorality that the original did not have. The clones are therefore, put in a state where they have suffering and pain because of scientists who want to make a name for themselves. I've seen the videos of sheep and so forth. If that human clone is true, a breathing, living human being may age very quick, have other abmoralities and pretty much have a terrible life. All for what cause? Is it an honourable cause? Should I start giong to a drive in now to order my child? Perhaps I'll engineer someone or get one of those Woody Allen 2000 SX? Eugenics on this scale is bad. However, if it involves something like living tissue like an organ growing on its own or cloning blood cells I think that is OK. However, stem cells it turns out has been grossly overestimated by scientists, and if they are a human being growing in their early stages I object. The stem cells are a human being developing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm trooper55 Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 they cud use human cloning if the worldm population went down or sumfing but it isnt really required at the moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted January 3, 2003 Author Share Posted January 3, 2003 i like where this is going just dont turn into a flame war or it will be my ass and you guys dont want that do you. cuz then they would have to clone me ... J/K:p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Originally posted by -s/<itzo- cloning is man made its artificial. its tampering with the natural process. You'd be surprised at how hazy the line between "natural process" and "artificial" is. But if that's your standpoint, I'm fine with it. i just think its unnecessary. As do I. While reproductive cloning can be helpful in rare circumstances, we're already too many people here. I don't care about rich couples wanting to clone their dead son. Leave him be dammit. and if they are a human being growing in their early stages I object. The stem cells are a human being developing. At that stage, they're cells of yourself. I suppose you cry tears of mourning too when you cut yourself, destroying hundreds of cells that could in fact be grown into clones of yourself. Once you get down into genetics, you can't really define "human". Think of the poor Mr. Smith mentioned above - if you object to his cloning, he'll never be able to walk again. All because of your beliefs. Are you in a position to judge him like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted January 3, 2003 Author Share Posted January 3, 2003 Originally posted by Cjais You'd be surprised at how hazy the line between "natural process" and "artificial" is. exactly. ok my point you a christian guy right ok so (ill get to your point of view) god gave us the ability to clone therefore its natural yet somewhat artificial. :edit: my postcount now is 666 is that a sign?:edit: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfnshannon Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I'm opposed for now. I think that .... if it is in the wrong hands it can be used for evil. I don't think cloning itself is evil persay. But I do think that the people doing the cloning are given this god like ability to control a human as far as its traits or to clone the wrong kind of person. Say they clone more Saddam's or something. Bin Ladens or whatever. Make the ultimate Terror Babies or what have you. Since, you can't really tell who can clone for good or evil I don't think we should clone at all. Its too dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Originally posted by -s/<itzo- i oppose human cloning. its not our place as human beings to create human life forms other than reproduction. i mean what will cloning do for us. why don't we put more time and effort looking for cures of diseases like AIDs intead. something that will benefit our society. just leave human creation to GODs hands. If this so called god didnt want us to clone, why did he make us able to. Why did he give us an imagination that could come up with such outrageous ideas. If he didn't want it to happen, he could stop it, or he could have disallowed it in the first place. It was his call, and he left us in charge. What harm can it do anyway? You think the headlines will be reading "Bin Laden creates a grand clone army"?????..... If anyone does have clone soldiers, it'll be western civilization, which means our loved ones wont have to go to war.... But by that time war will just be whoever can press the nuke button first, so we won't need them anyway. But my personal opinion is, if it helps the medical industry with disease research, I'm all for it. Personally, I plan on going into cancer research myself. Cloning for stem cells is something that is direly needed. Don't you people think it's utterly fascinating that we can completely genetically replicate a human being? It's incredible. It's another marvel of how far we've come. I think some people are just scared because if we do, it brings us a step closer to their precious god, which makes their god a step less incredible in the eyes of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Originally posted by STTCT I'm opposed for now. I think that .... if it is in the wrong hands it can be used for evil. I don't think cloning itself is evil persay. But I do think that the people doing the cloning are given this god like ability to control a human as far as its traits or to clone the wrong kind of person. Say they clone more Saddam's or something. Bin Ladens or whatever. Make the ultimate Terror Babies or what have you. Since, you can't really tell who can clone for good or evil I don't think we should clone at all. Its too dangerous. As much as people want to believe it, and as much as we're told of the links, violent behaviour isnt genetically predetermined. If you cloned saddam and raised him in any old friendly household, he would turn out to be a charming young man. Our environment controls how we think and feel. It's how we're raised that makes us who we are. Every minute event in saddam's life has added up to make him who he is today. If someone had given him a teddy bear for his 5th birthday rather than a toy nuke, maybe things would be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfnshannon Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Agreed....on the whole if clone saddam was placed in a different environment... However...if someone did clone saddam....I think they would have done it for no good. I'm sure somebody wouldn't go...you know Saddam wasn't that bad he just didn't have the right up-bringing. Honey order us a clone Saddam so we can show the world that he can be good! No they would clone him to take his place...or be evil. They would make his environment turn him evil. I guess that's what I was trying to say. I am totally agreed that it is the environment around you that determines your personality and your decisions etc. I wouldn't mind if a family who couldn't have children wanted a clone of them to be able to still keep the family line open. That's all good. But I still think that even with all the good intentions there are going to be people out there abusing this technology and I don't think that we should have cloning until we able to control it better....and I don't think that will happen soon. I also think cloning of organs is awesome. I am all for that research. Is that the stem cell stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-s/<itzo- Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Good point GonkH8er But If we cloned people, we would no longer be unique individuals like God made us. I don't see any good reason to have cloning, except to use it as technology to get rid of birth defects, viruses and for organ replacement/spinal regeneration, etc... I believe that people are given souls at the moment the sperm touches the egg, be that in the womb, a petri dish, a test tube or where ever else that do that. Is sperm touching an egg. it is the joining of two people, animals, etc in order to create another. cloning is just copying some dna. i don't see how anybody could want to create soul-less beings, or who would want to be one. i believe that things other than dna make up the core of who a person is. things such as personality and character. yes, these things are also shaped over time, but people are born with the general outline of them. i really don't think that personality and character can be defined by amino acids, proteins, nucleotide chains, etc. there is much more to people than that. i don't particularly believe in cloning. it just seems arbitrary why do we need to clone humans anyway?Have you ever heard the saying "kids are cruel"? What will the REAL children say? God made man NOT man made man. plus the world population is already a problem. Why add more of us who are LIKE us? Instead of wasting a lot of money cloning people, the money would better be spent on research to prevent the disease and to cure it without crossing moral lines. sure a genetic match of organs would help a lot, but i just think people can do better than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwing Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 What's with the way people are bringing God into this? Creating a clone is essentially creating a twin. I guess twins are evil too, then? Oh, you say God doesn't want us to clone humans? Gee, that isn't arbitrary AT ALL. However...if someone did clone saddam....I think they would have done it for no good. I'm sure somebody wouldn't go...you know Saddam wasn't that bad he just didn't have the right up-bringing. Honey order us a clone Saddam so we can show the world that he can be good! No they would clone him to take his place...or be evil. They would make his environment turn him evil. But he still wouldn't be the same. He would be a different person; he would not be Saddam. It's completely impossible. Even in your first example, that would be pointless. They wouldn't be showing the world Saddam can be good, they would be showing the world that Saddam's twin can be good. (Note I'm talking about cloning as a concept - as a practice it does have extremely high potential for problems) I'm opposed for now. I think that .... if it is in the wrong hands it can be used for evil. What is there in our existence that cannot be used for evil? edit: Wow this post sounds mean. Don't hate me, it's 5 AM ^^;;; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 But why should a few people doing bad stuff ruin all the miracles it could bring.... James, 2 years old, dies of SIDS while he sleeps. Is it wrong for the parents to want to have their child back? Wouldn't it be amazing if they could have their child back. "Oh, but they can make another baby".... ... Well that's a bit heartless now isn't it? Sure it may seem a bit cold, even sadistic and mechanical to bring a dead person back to life as a newborn, but personally I'd say to let so many children die and just say "Oh well... lets move on and have another child" is the colder option. And well, we're not at the stage yet where we can specify a cluster of embryonic stem cells and say "Make a kidney of blood type AB+!"... but..... stem cells can be taken from foetuses under a week old and inserted into the spine of someone with normally irreparable damage and create new spinal tissue so that that person may walk. The ability to grow human tissue of all kinds opens the door to treating a range of cell-based diseases and to growing medically important tissues that can be used for transplantation purposes. For example, diseases like juvenile onset diabetes mellitus and Parkinson's disease occur because of defects in one of just a few cells types. Replacing faulty cells with healthy ones offers hope of lifelong treatment. Similarly, failing hearts and other organs, in theory, could be shored up by injecting healthy cells to replace damaged or diseased cells It's amazing what they could do if only it were properly legalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clemme w/Stick Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I'm against human cloning! If we started cloning there would be no individualist any more....and that would be like taking away our humanity!! -Clemme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfnshannon Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I am against the whole "we lost our son and now we want him back, so we cloned him" ack. That is too freekish to me! You are right guys as far as....No the "clone son" wouldn't be the same son - but in a sense...it is. Do we know enough yet to know that regardless of environment or what have you that the clone would not do EXACTLY what their original did? No cuz we never had a clone human before. And what happens if we suddenly start playing with these genectics making super humans and clones of super humans and then someone like Hitler decides to kill us all. Ack. Given to the wrong hands - this is dangerous. Give me a good reason guys why we "NEED" clones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwing Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Do we know enough yet to know that regardless of environment or what have you that the clone would not do EXACTLY what their original did? No cuz we never had a clone human before. But we have twins. ^_~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anakin_Solo Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 im going to annoy a lot of people here, and watch below as people start calling me crazy and weirdo... But i dont care! Religon told us to belive that US "man", is the creation of GOD. fair enough, But Did GOD create the Dinosaurs ? if GOD didnt create the Dinos, WHO did? evolution? freak accident? meteor hitting the earth with Alien lifeforms on it? MARS had life on it long before we did. i really belive that, and its only time thaT WILL prove me right. i have a saying, Life on Earth is not a miracle, Life on Mars is... Our PAST, and future is out there people, in SPACE. It is TOO vast to have us belive WE "GODS IMAGE" are the only living beings with intelligence. 2000 years before Jesus was born Man lived in Africa, look at the evolution of mankind, it changes, adapted, WHY? if we are perfect? why did it change? Did GOD say "oops made a mistake with this one" I belive we ARE a creation of Cloning, not of GOD but from an Alien race of men. Long time ago they could have left us here, on Earth as life was formed. maybe MARS was dying... and we came here, but our intelligence and understanding is baffling me? You can mock me all you want, but as you read this ^, sit back and think.... just think of the planets that COULD have life out there... OH cloning, didnt take us long to perfect that did it? Did aliens really land @ Roswell? are they helping man? What other inovations are going to change our lives for ever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Originally posted by -s/<itzo- But If we cloned people, we would no longer be unique individuals like God made us. Unique? So DNA makes us unique, is that it? I believe that people are given souls at the moment the sperm touches the egg [...] i don't see how anybody could want to create soul-less beings, or who would want to be one. But cloning also means an egg and a sperm cell touch each other. So that means clone people aren't "soulless" in any way. i really don't think that personality and character can be defined by amino acids, proteins, nucleotide chains, etc. This is all there is, as of now. Until you have evidence of a soul, I say we stop letting petty beliefs hinder the progress of science. God made man NOT man made man. Are you to argue that whenever a baby is born, it is NOT the product of the parents? Stop living in a black and white world. Until you have proof of God making Man, stop letting your beliefs hinder progress that might save people. Plus the world population is already a problem. If that is your concern, I suggest you go right ahead and advocate abortion, condoms and birth control. Go ahead. Do it and make the world a better place. Instead of wasting a lot of money cloning people, the money would better be spent on research to prevent the disease and to cure it without crossing moral lines. sure a genetic match of organs would help a lot, but i just think people can do better than this. Believe what you will. When the world is hanging in a thread because Christians can't accept that their morals are ignored, we'll see who can do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Originally posted by Clemme w/Stick If we started cloning there would be no individualist any more....and that would be like taking away our humanity!! -Clemme Clemme, twins are more perfect clones than we can create (right now). Are they inhuman too? Are they "soulless"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfnshannon Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 did we learn nothing from Jurassic Park??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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