C'jais Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by ShadowTemplar And where it doesn't apply common knowledge of how to survive as a tribe it is probably the most hate-filled book on the market. Hehehehehe... I especially quite like the parts in the Old Testament where God slays hundreds of people for reasons completely immoral today. But I guess he's the boss, since he so obviously does not have to follow his own rules of compassion and morals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-s/<itzo- Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by Cjais To the contrary, I sticked to the point. Please be specific where I attacked you ad hominem. The way you respond to my comments. like the last paragraph in your respond. you made me sound like I'm naive, uptight. like the only way of thinking is your way. shutting my views down. its just the way you act towards the situation. i sense negativity. Will abortion and condoms ADD to the problem? Why? i think you missundertood me. when i said "yeah i'm aware with condoms, abortion and sexual preventions and the only thing this will do is add more to the problem." what i meant is cloning will add to the problem not condoms, abortion, etc.. just got carried away and forgot how to write proper sentences. Of course I'm not. But even though I don't get it, please be so kind to state where I'm wrong. thats the thing. you always think you're right. if someone goes beyond your beliefs you automatically turn your shoulder the other way. stop thinking narrow. It is not. You're placing human life on a piedestal above everything else. I suppose you find the part in the Bible where it says that "Man shall hold dominion over every other forms of life" (paraphrasing) really sound and true. It couldn't possibly be more immoral. The Bible is good wisdom in some places, but this part of it makes me rebuke in disgust. why do you always have to turn this into a religion issue. once and for all i'm not religous. you making it sound like i'm some sorta die-hard gehova's witness preaching my beliefs which i'm not trying to do. all life forms are precious but comparing the two it just inane. so you're telling me human life and an insects life is the same in terms of value. answer me this. did you ever kill an insect before? thousands of times i bet. did you ever kill a human before? never, you wouldn't even think it (unless you're sick in the head). there just much more at stake when you're refering to a human life. you can't go to jail for killing a bee. like i said before its a whole different concept. Sorry to bring the Bible up again, but I feel you've got a fair bit of inspiration from it if you regard human life as something different from plants and insects. again, this is not a religous thing. ok get this straight. i grew up as a catholic. but as i mature and be able to think for myself there are some beliefs i question about my religon so i don't stand by it fully. but i do believe in GOD. its like believing in faith or hope. Hmmm... since you aknowledge the existance of something "flawless", please be so good as to point out something in nature which is perfect. And no, God doesn't count - we have to sense it for it to count as proof. here we go again. you keep mentioning GOD and the Bible to my face (thats hitting below the belt). nothing is flawless. you act like cloning is just a simple process which it ain't. there are alot of life at stake during the experimentation, the whole process in general. its much more complex than what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by -s/<itzo- The way you respond to my comments. like the last paragraph in your respond. you made me sound like I'm naive, uptight. like the only way of thinking is your way. "Orthodoxy is not a way of thinking, it is a way of not thinking." -Orwell Originally posted by -s/<itzo- what i meant is cloning will add to the problem not condoms, abortion, etc.. Not therapeutic cloning. You are confusing therapeutic and reproductive. Originally posted by -s/<itzo- thats the thing. you always think you're right. if some goes beyond your beliefs you automatically turn your shoulder the other way. stop thinking narrow. While I cannot speak for C'Jais, I do not belive. Nor do I know. I think. And when I see something that defies logic and rationale or an unfounded prejudice or opinion, I heel against it. Originally posted by -s/<itzo- why do you always have to turn this into a religion issue. once and for all i'm not religous. Aah, but it was you who brought it into the thread: Originally posted by -s/<itzo- just leave human creation to GODs hands. Your words exactly. Originally posted by -s/<itzo- you making it sound like i'm some sorta die-hard gehova's witness preaching my beliefs which i'm not trying to do. No. C'Jais doesn't make you look like a religious fanatic. If you did not make yourself look like one, all he could do was make himself look like a fool. Originally posted by -s/<itzo- all life forms are precious but comparing the two it just inane. so you're telling me human life and an insects life is the same in terms of value. False. He says that a human embryo is as precious as an insect. You have yet to convince me otherwise, or even present some semblance of rational argumentation for it. Originally posted by -s/<itzo- again, this is not a religous thing. ok get this straight. i grew up as a catholic. but as i mature and be able to think for myself there are some beliefs i question about my religon so i don't stand by it fully. but i do believe in GOD. its like believing in faith or hope. But being a declared Catholic does make you religious. And saying that God is against the progress that science makes, this must be "a religious thing" to you. Originally posted by -s/<itzo- here we go again. you keep mentioning GOD and the Bible to my face (thats hitting below the belt). Ooh, but you mention God and the Bible too, no? In the beginning of this thread you tried to justify your opinion with God, no? Well, that's what it looks like. Originally posted by -s/<itzo- there are alot of life at stake during the experimentation, the whole process in general. "Life" is killed every second. And there is no human life at stake in these experiments. Originally posted by -s/<itzo- its much more complex than what you think. I think that C'Jais is a lot more knowledgeable in this field than you, seeing as how you continually fail to distinguish between reproductive and therapeutic cloning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by -s/<itzo- The way you respond to my comments. like the last paragraph in your respond. you made me sound like I'm naive, uptight. like the only way of thinking is your way. The part about God being the boss? Or the part about you laying down to die if you're so concerned about life? i think you missundertood me. when i said "yeah i'm aware with condoms, abortion and sexual preventions and the only thing this will do is add more to the problem." what i meant is cloning will add to the problem not condoms, abortion, etc.. just got carried away and forgot how to write proper sentences. Oh, reproductive cloning will certainly add to the problem, you're of course right there, but sexual prevention will take away from the problem. thats the thing. you always think you're right. if some goes beyond your beliefs you automatically turn your shoulder the other way. stop thinking narrow. What beliefs? I'm not of a narrow mind, I'm open to new facts. I just haven't seen any so far that point toward there being a higher moral. why do you always have to turn this into a religion issue. once and for all i'm not religous. You made it a religious/irrational debate once you introduced unprovable things such as souls, God and whatnot. Believe it or not, you were the one who first started stating that "God makes babies" etc. did you ever kill an insect before? If you really want to know - I go out of my way to not kill any insects. I don't swat flies or mosquitoes. I once broke the brake on my bike from trying to avoid a caterpillar on the road. But of course, I can't make absolutely sure I don't kill any insects/life since that is unavoidable. The thing that bugs me is that you're placing human DNA higher than everything else. It's the "In theory we're better than everyone else" attitude I have trouble accepting. If it was my pain or life versus that of an animal, I'd place myself higher. I am the all-important character in my life. But I do not view human life as somehow more holy/important than that of animals. again, this is not a religous thing. Right, ok, it isn't. But it's still beliefs we're talking about. Whether they're religious or not doesn't matter. You didn't seem to take the Raelians very seriously since they claimed life originated from aliens. I'm doing the same thing here. God/Aliens created life on earth - it's both the exact same hogwash. Tell me why your beliefs are more important, better, true and wiser than those of the Raelians. there are alot of life at stake during the experimentation, Is there? As we all know, cells are alive. But therapeutic cloning does not kill those cells. They're reprogrammed, as Templar said. its much more complex than what you think. It may be. But I find your view on these things very simple black and white categorizations. Let's see: We have human life, animal life (lesser life?) and non-life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunClown Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Posted by CJAIS It is very much about your beliefs and morals. You think 2 celled organisms are somehow individual, human life. If people start preaching their beliefs to the wrong people, we end up with a scientific halt on our hands. This is what happened in the dark ages - it was immoral to even assume the Earth was not the all-important center of the universe. I was keeping my spiritual beliefs out of this debate because I can not speak for God. All I know, is that humans now posess the technology to clone. I can however, speak for my own views on the subject. BTW, I like Copernicus. I was reading a book "A History of Science: 1543 - 2001" and it mentioned how it was only brought to the Roman Catholic churches attention in a seperate court case unrelated to this relating to a cult that had started up. The Roman Catholic church got it in their heads that because the cult believed in Copernicuses theory the Roman Catholic church targeted Copernicus. I am of course not Roman Catholic and do not attest to their views, so they are not relevent as far as I am concerned. They actually slaughtered ancestors of mine to be honest. So ramble on all you want about what they have done, but don't aim it at me. Also, the dark ages, science only came to a hult in Europe. The Arabs took off where Europe had left off. As far as life and cells, I'll just agree to disagree before it turns sour like the rest of the thread. I've known to many of these debates. Cheers and this thread twas good while it lasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Thread moved to our flashy new forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy867 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Ok, all you guys and ladies keep bringing up the fact of how human cloning will terminate individualism. Well, to me, its a choice. We are WANTING to give up individualism to have this "clone." Its just like joining the military. We are giving up our right as an individual, but no one really opposes that. And the military is just a way of cloning everyone to be a perfect being. I know that there is the fear of getting in the wrong hands, but that like someone said on page 1 goes for almost anything. look back at late 2002 and with John Muhammed Williams and what happened when a gun got into his hands. Does that mean we have to stop making guns because they get into the wrong hands. No, of course it doesn't. People just need to use common sense, because every person born on this planet knows the difference between right and wrong, even though they may not accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Well said Andy. Technology isn't going to do harm. It's the use of it that might prove to be a dangerous idea. Just as nuclear research yielded both nuclear powerplants and nuclear bombs, so do cloning have both a positive and negative aspect. Telling people to stop researching electricity because it'll result in fighter jets and humans playing God with light is no good idea. Telling people to stop researching cloning because it'll result in reproductive cloning and genetic engineering on a grand scale isn't wise either, as it can be used for good purposes as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy867 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 And what about artificial insemination? That's artificial by name, yet it is a part of the reproduction of humans. Think of how many sperm donors there are. Are we going to stop artificial insemination because we are selves are playing "GOD" to help a woman get pregnant. Cloning is just another form of artificial insemination if you think about it. Because sperm contain the DNA of the host which is then being passed on to another. You guys REALLY need to think on the other side of the border before saying, " CLONING?! OH MY GOD!! HISS HISS!!" And with cloning of humans comes the idea of cloning humans parts, which will become effective instead of waiting for someone to croak or get into a fatal accident just to donate their organs. What if those same organs were cloned? How will we know how the organs will react unless human clones are produced to see how the cloned organs work and react with natural/uncloned organs/host bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 ok not that im religious this is just something i dont get. ok ? when people say god doesnt want this. well first off what did god personally tell you this? i dont think so. so you cant speak for god. second right gods against this huh well then why did god give us the ability to do it. and dont tell me to test are will. thats crap god already knows you have will. if gods all powerful and knowledgeful he would know you have strong will power and convictions therefore religion should in no way halter science. if god really cared for us he wouldnt give us these diseases that the only way to cure at this point would be through theraputic(sp?) cloning. repeat theraputic. not reproductive. so stop with the god is against it thing cuz god isnt you are. thank you have a nice day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoguePhotonic Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Originally posted by ShadowTemplar Sure... And the US government is hiding aliens in the Nevada deserts... And the Apollo program was just a big fake... Those are called "conspiracy hypothesises" and usually don't hold. Well without getting involved in a conversation I don't want to be in I will just say that if nothing has been done...then I just shake my head at scientists. Though I fail to see how this could be considered a conspiracy. And I believe the apollo program was a fake:p ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Cloned humans aren't against the laws of nature. It's not like you're photocopying a person.....a clone will be a totally different people than the clonee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Groovy Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Not completely different. The same genetic make up, but a different physical appearance, yes. To overlook the potential of theraputic cloning is pure ignorance and utter foolishness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Originally posted by FunClown Also, the dark ages, science only came to a hult in Europe. The Arabs took off where Europe had left off. *coughtheGreatLibraryofAlexandriacough*(1) Well without getting involved in a conversation I don't want to be in I will just say that if nothing has been done...then I just shake my head at scientists. I see it as a very real possibility that no cloned humans have been born. Why? Because the people who have the expertise to do it have reputations to protect. And current consensus in the scientific community is that reproductive cloning should make you pariah. BTW: Those "hoax claims" against the Apollo Program pop up from time to time. So far, to my knowledge, NASA has been able to refute them all... But this is kinda off topic. 1) The Great Library of Alexandria was burned to the ground by a Islamic warlord. A litterally irreplaceable compilation of works on math and science (or rather a philosophical proto-science) was burned to ashes to satisfy the religious dogmas of one person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Originally posted by Darth Groovy Not completely different. The same genetic make up, but a different physical appearance, yes. To overlook the potential of theraputic cloning is pure ignorance and utter foolishness. Well, different in each way we consider people individuals. Do we not consider identical twins different people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral_Ackbar8 Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 when they get to human cloning which i think will be in about 50 years would be dangerous there are some many things that could go wrong and why would you want to have a clone of your self i wouldnt like it that much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taos Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Personally, I don't care if they clone people or not. I'm sure the military would like to try to find someway to use this to their advantage. "Just send in the clones, they aren't important." I don't claim to know a lot about the topic but I am trying to read more about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Originally posted by Leemu Taos I don't claim to know a lot about the topic but I am trying to read more about it. Ahh good idea Leemu Here's a bit to help you on the way: Clones are not subhumans. If anyone seriously still believes this, go on and tell us why. Now, it is just as hard to grow a clone as it is to grow a normal human. In fact, it obviously takes more work because scientists have to fiddle with the process. Also: Everyone should know the difference between therapeutic cloning and reproductive cloning. If anyone don't know this, read this whole thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 It should be noted that cloning for miltary purposes would be insane. The cost would be huge, plus, you'd still have to grow and raise them the old fashion way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teutonicknight Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 It should be noted that cloning for miltary purposes would be insane. The cost would be huge, plus, you'd still have to grow and raise them the old fashion way. Acutally, in the future, I don't beleive that it would be insane. We as humans can do so much with DNA now (genecticly altering food), that I beleive in the future we will be able to genecticly alter the clones to have accelerated growth. I do worry about that though, and what would happen it the technonogy got into the wrong hands. I'm personally agaist cloning, but I agree with stem-cell research and what-not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 How would feeding, growing, training a clone be better than simply using robotic weapontry or conscripting "normal" humans? Plus there are some huge technical hurdles to pass before something like this could be even thinkable. Any one of these are decades away. 1. A way to speed up the aging process from 0 - 18 years. 2. Teaching techniques to educate such speed aged individuals. 3. Artifical Wombs Since this sort of tech will be not possible for, at least, decades, we really shouldn't worry about it. It's like making regulations for transporters before they actually exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy867 Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 This is starting to sound like the Genome Project from Metal Gear Series With Big Boss, Liquid and Solid/Solidus Snake. S3 in other words. They used the dna with some altercations to make liquid and solid snake function like combat fighters with focalized training for war and close combat. So, would it be so hard in the next say 50 years to study DNA strands that exceed normal muscle growth and faster foot speed, better reflexes. because all of this deals with our genetic make-up and training. So what would stop the military from doing so? You know they are always looking for new ways to win wars with less casualties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
{BK}SupremePain Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 i am personaly torn on this subject.... on the one hand, people not able to get pregnant could have children and on the other hand, if the technoligi fell into the wrong hands there could be caused a big problem in the world... in cloning itself i think it is okay, but a problem could be that people would look down on people that were cloned as not real humans... that is if they should find out somehow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Originally posted by {BK}SupremePain if the technoligi fell into the wrong hands there could be caused a big problem in the world... Right. Everyone, what exactly is it that you fear if the cloning technology "fell into the wrong hands"? AOTC'esque clone army scenarios? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
{BK}SupremePain Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 lol.... no sorry i should have said... i dident mean like creating a army of clones sorry i meant .......... people cloning and selling human lives on the black market, groving slaves etc. i dont know if you find this a bit exentrick but... i think its definetly a chance considering that some people now adays actuly kidnape human beings and sell there organs to hospitals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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