Dagobahn Eagle Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 I feel like ranting to someone, and there's no one here but me, so please listen. So my mom and little brother (14) are ticking me off. Basically, they're being rasists/generalizing, which is bad, and then they get upset with me for telling them not to be (which is worse). Or to elaborate: First of all, my mom. Our doctors (a man and woman) are from someplace in East Asia (judging by their accent and looks:)), but my mother insists on refering to the man as "the Chinese doctor" when she talks about him to me. When I asked her if she knew if he was Chinese, she shrugged at me (because she knows I doesn't like that), as if she was saying "God, do you have to correct me all the time?" Then, when I tell her to stop assuming a person is Chinese just because of his "race", she tells me she's not assuming anything, just "guessing". Don't make me start on why that argument is so damn weak. Second, my mom voulenteers at my brothers school and the librarian talked about a boy who she is assigned to walk home after school (approx. two suburb blocks). Now, this boy, who has Chinese parents, happens to live almost next door to me, and after some describing of the street by the librarian, my mom sees the connection... and blurts out "oh, a Chinese boy, maybe?" He's American, for God's sake (something which took my mom like 30 minutes of convincing to understand). Next, my brother. He's still convinced (after living here for one year) that just because some kid's ancestry/homeland is someplace in East Asia, he can safely assume that kid is a genious. When I point it out to him, he tells me rude stuff like "you're really good at killing conversations". Nice guy . And my mom gives me this whole freaking justification of the generalization because "hey, they've got some good math classes in China and Japan....". So what? For those of you who don't get this, let me say that assuming that all Chinese (or Japanese, for that matter) are good at math is just as bad as assuming that all Latins are bad at English (note that I'm not exaggerating). Why? Because saying something about an entire race is always a bad thing. Or as a friend of mine put it: You can never say a thing about a whole people. You'll always be wrong. This is not my idea, it's the idea of people who are stereotyped and hate it. It's even in my US History book in the chapter about racism, in case you're still doubting it . There are two types of stereotypes. Innocent ones, like the ones about dumb blondes, and harmful ones, which are harmful because people actually believe them (like dumb Mexicans and smart Chinese). Now, sure you may say that "you've probably been stereotyping yourself". Well, yes, I was, but only for one week or two when I got here, until I realized how stupid it was to assume something of someone just because of how they look. I never stayed racist. I know this is "so 100% me" and you may snicker at it because of that, but I'm not mad because they're being so dang retarded, I'm mad because they get mad at me when I tell them they're not supposed to be that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba Rhett Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Ok, so next time somebody calls me a smart American I guess I'll punch them in the face. Honestly, I really think you're blowing this waaay out of proportion and calling your brother and mother racists for what little they said is wrong and insulting. For the hell of it, lets take your use of the word, "retarded". Don't you think that could be insulting those who actually are retarded by infering they are racist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Gnarly Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 *agrees with rhett* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygomaticus Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 They're just being staunch in their beliefs. They probably know no better and it's probably hard for them to understand. I won't ask you how old your mom is, but seeing that you're a teenager or more, I can safely assume that she's 40+ Probably that's how things were in her days and it's hard for people to change a habbit. It's probably how she grew up. As for your little brother, maybe he's just not old enough to understand what you mean. How many prodigous 14 year olds do you meet everyday? No offence to your bro... You're definitely right that you can never judge a people as you will always be wrong. And seeing this is a rant, I guess it's okay for you to be a little peeved As Rhett brings this up For the hell of it, lets take your use of the word, "retarded". Don't you think that could be insulting those who actually are retarded by infering they are racist? Eagle, I do have something against people who say things are "retarded" or "gay." Because, out of no respect for the people who ARE those things, people undermine them. But if it's a habbit, I suggest you/they change it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 What's wrong with saying some is a "Chinese Doctor" or a "Chinese Boy"? Its a physical description. If you say "American", most people assume you mean white, for better or worse. So, by saying they are Chinese, they are giving you a more acute physical description, not a broad generalization for their behavior, attitude, intelligence, or what not. Its you who is assuming thats what it means when it most likely doesn't. If you didn't make that assumption, you wouldn't get so angry. As for your brother saying all asian kids are smart, who cares? Sure its a generalization, but he's not taking action as a result of it. His generalization is most likely not affecting how he treats asians in general, so it doesn't matter. I hate to say it, but i think the problem is mostly on your end here. You can't easily change others, so if you find you have a problem with them, try changing your perception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted February 25, 2003 Author Share Posted February 25, 2003 I was halfway expecting replies like this . 1. Ok, I'll stop saying retarded. But hey, you yourself laughed at that Chinese kid's name, didn't you? See, everyone does something that could be considered offensive. (Oh, and I don't say 'gay'. Really.) Look, here's my problem, from your POV: Let's say I flame you for not liking me using the word "retarded" or "gay". Like, harshly and repeatedly. ("God, you've got a rod up your butt, I can use those words if I want to..."). You'd eventually get mad, right? See, the problem is I'm being called some pretty mean things for the things I believe in, one of them being eradication of all race-based generalization (which you have figured by now from all my posts earlier:)). 2. Ok, so next time somebody calls me a smart American I guess I'll punch them in the face. Honestly, I really think you're blowing this waaay out of proportion and calling your brother and mother racists for what little they said is wrong and insulting. Nah, that's not about race, it's about nationality, so that doesn't count. Tough part is, they get mad at me for disliking racism and generalization. 3. As for your brother saying all Asian kids are smart, who cares? Sure its a generalization, but he's not taking action as a result of it. His generalization is most likely not affecting how he treats Asians in general, so it doesn't matter. What about saying stuff like "all latins are stupid", or "all Nigerians are stupid"? To many, those stereotypes are just as bad. And no, knowing most people of Asian descent at my school, that behaviour is *not* going to improve his relationships with them, seeing it's one of the things the ones I know hates the most. Oh, and for the "Chinese doc" thing: They hate being generalized as Chinese too, for your information (funny thing is, I'm halfway expecting that guy from Shanghai to get in here and disagree with me... knowing the world right:D). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artoo Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Thank You Eagle, I hate generalizations. I'm proud of who I am, but I'd like you to identify me correctly for who I am, and I would like the same for others. What realy gets on my nerves, is hypicrisy in identification. Take for instance the NAACP. But don't get me started on them I hate them more than ignorant liberals. Their acronym stands for, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Yet they demand people call them, African-americans. Also I dislike African-americans who will call themselves blacks or niggers, but they demand that anyone else call them African-americans. This to me is really, really disturbing. this is like me demanding that you call me a Caucasian-american . I don't care what you call me, white, caucasian-american, cracka. It's all good. Just as long as you don't use social stereotypes like nerd or geek. I can't stand those. You should get to know someone before you use those words, and they better have truth behind them. Like I don't care if my girlfriend calls me a nerd or a dork, cause she knows me, and I can accept those words from her, but I don't like random people who don't really know me to throw those words at me. That makes me mad. OK, I'm through with my ranting for today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygomaticus Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 (Oh, and I don't say 'gay'. Really.) I know you don't say it. I just added it in as another example... but I don't like random people who don't really know me to throw those words at me. That makes me mad. nerd j/k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Fergie Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle 2. Nah, that's not about race, it's about nationality, so that doesn't count. Tough part is, they get mad at me for disliking racism and generalization. I think there is a nation called China and the people that live there are Chinese, alot like the whole Americans are from America thing that was happinng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_dog no.3 Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Fergie I think there is a nation called China and the people that live there are Chinese LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 I agree with DE (though I'm one of the few, for a strange reason), generalizing is really bad. You can't even know that they are chinese at all, if they are born in USA, they are American (also, they may very well be from any other East Asian countries). It's really bad that people are classified as 'chinese' just because of their looks. And even worse are people who thinks these 'chinese' are different than themselves. People stops seeing them as who they are, and they see them as 'chinese' instead. Really bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 that's almost as bad as my mom and sister and aunt thinking that all californians are picky snobs...just cause of 2 people they know...that really pisses me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kirby Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 i have to go with rhett and the others that think you're making to big a deal of it. i don't see any problem with calling someone by the nationality with which everyday people would associate them. for those of you that say we shouldn't generalize, we can't call the "chinese" guy chinese american either because we don't know THAT either. do you want us to go up to everybody and ask them their life's ethnical history and everything-- i think they would find that even more offensive. by saying they're chinese or whatever, we're not trying to stereotype their personality or anything-- we're just painting a picture to others of who we're talking about. sure, i wouldn't want anyone to call them that in a derogatory manner, but as far as i can tell, this wasn't the case. now i've given my two cents worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn I agree with DE (though I'm one of the few, for a strange reason), generalizing is really bad. You can't even know that they are chinese at all, if they are born in USA, they are American (also, they may very well be from any other East Asian countries). It's really bad that people are classified as 'chinese' just because of their looks. And even worse are people who thinks these 'chinese' are different than themselves. People stops seeing them as who they are, and they see them as 'chinese' instead. Really bad. I've said it a million times elsewhere, i'll say it again here. The only thing wrong with generalizations is if they are used in a bad way. Much like a lot of things in life, really. If you make an unwarranted assumption about someone and it cause you to treat them differently then that is bad. But saying someone is a "Chinese doctor" but treating them exactly the same way they would treat a white or black or whatever is completely harmless. All generalizations aren't bad, and if you think about it, saying so is, in fact, a generalization. Saome generalizations can be usefull, such as to get a basic idea of physical appearance, because it is true that the incredibly vast majority of chinese people look very similar, and the vast majority of whites have similar characteristics, and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted February 26, 2003 Author Share Posted February 26, 2003 Well, the big problem is, they don't like it, and you can't tell them what to be offended by. Children of African immigrants in the USA call themselves n****s for some reason: Am I right to be a big "NAACP Advocate" and tell them that really, the 'N-word' is something that should have died out with the Nazis? Not more than you have to tell the South Koreans that it's okay to stereotype them as Chinese. Heck, there are individuals in East Asia don't even like the Chinese. Well, if I was brown-haired, and someone reffered to me as "that Spanish guy", I'd go "huh?". Why can't they refer to me as blonde, white, pale, European, or *insert politically correct name for European immigrant here*? The same way, if there are all white students in the class and one South Korean exchange students, refer to her as "the chich with the black hair", like some nice students in my school does. TIE Guy, :"Chinese" is not a phyiscal trait, it's a nationality. "Dark-haired", "black-eyed", and "tan" (if politically correct), as are "Asian" when used to describe a race (which I don't like), on the other hand, all are, so why not use them? What you're doing is assuming something on the basis of their skin colour, instead of stating something that describes them physically just as well, but without this 75% chance it's untrue. Or in the words of Bill Cabot, the Sum of all Fears: You'd better be damn sure what you're talking about: Don't be afraid to say "I don't know". Pick your words carefully, 'cause words have a nasty tendency to turn into policy Or in our case, stereotypes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle TIE Guy, :"Chinese" is not a phyiscal trait, it's a nationality. "Dark-haired", "black-eyed", and "tan" (if politically correct), as are "Asian" when used to describe a race (which I don't like), on the other hand, all are, so why not use them? What you're doing is assuming something on the basis of their skin colour, instead of stating something that describes them physically just as well, but without this 75% chance it's untrue. Well, you can think that if you want, but when someone says a "Chinese person," I immediately think of what they look like, and 99% of the time it is accurate. I don't think about how they might act, or whether i want to know them or not. If you or they take it differently, then there's nothing i can do about it. The reason why people do it is because it is easier. Rather than rattling off some long description, they can just say one word that has the exact same effect. I really don't see where this gets offensive from my POV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted February 26, 2003 Author Share Posted February 26, 2003 "Dark-haired" is not "a long thread of descriptions". Besides, for the umptent time, there is a chance he/she is not Chinese. I immediately think of what they look like, and 99% of the time it is accurate. Out of the 10% of my school's student body that's of Asian descendance, I don't think 290 are Chinese immigrants.. I think the majority have Chinese parents, though, as China's huge and a dictatorship and it's thus bound to be the major source of immigrants (that's my reasoning, though). What's wrong about it? You assume something based on someone's skin colour only, which is bad. Of course, where you live, there might be a high percentage of immigrants from China for all I know, but where I'm from it's not. I don't think about how they might act In Norway (which has a high rate of immigration from Pakistan), you know what the government parties fighting racism (and of course the immigrants) tries to fight the most, apart from discrimination? Being stereotyped as Pakistani. If you're a Norse-born with Pakistani parents, you get offended when called Pakistani. I have no reason to believe that Americans with Oriental parents are any different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle "Dark-haired" is not "a long thread of descriptions". Besides, for the umptent time, there is a chance he/she is not Chinese. "Dark-haired" can mean any different number of peoples. By saying "Chinese" or "Asian" or what not, that describes physical appearance as a whole. Out of the 10% of my school's student body that's of Asian descendance, I don't think 290 are Chinese immigrants.. I think the majority have Chinese parents, though, as China's huge and a dictatorship and it's thus bound to be the major source of immigrants (that's my reasoning, though). What's wrong about it? You assume something based on someone's skin colour only, which is bad. Of course, where you live, there might be a high percentage of immigrants from China for all I know, but where I'm from it's not. Yeah, i'm assuming their skin color and hair color and what not based on their skin color. That makes perfect sense to me. I don't, however, when i hear "Chinese," think that i don't want to talk to them or that they would do this or that. And why not? Because thats not how it is. Behavior is not really a gentically transfered trait, as physical appearance is. Therefore while it is safe to assume that the vast majority of people of Asian decent look like other people of Asian decent, it is not reasonable to assume they all act the same way, and that is why i cannot judge them like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEDI_MASTA Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Originally posted by Tie Guy What's wrong with saying some is a "Chinese Doctor" or a "Chinese Boy"? Its a physical description. If you say "American", most people assume you mean white, for better or worse. So, by saying they are Chinese, they are giving you a more acute physical description, not a broad generalization for their behavior, attitude, intelligence, or what not. Its you who is assuming thats what it means when it most likely doesn't. If you didn't make that assumption, you wouldn't get so angry. As for your brother saying all asian kids are smart, who cares? Sure its a generalization, but he's not taking action as a result of it. His generalization is most likely not affecting how he treats asians in general, so it doesn't matter. I hate to say it, but i think the problem is mostly on your end here. You can't easily change others, so if you find you have a problem with them, try changing your perception. Yeah... conservative... :-D why does it bother you that bad man you have issues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Homer Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Ok, sticky subject for lots of people here...personally, I hate stereotypes...see, I'm from Texas, most people assume that because I'm from Texas, I like country music, drive a big truck, and lived on a ranch...nothing could be further from the truth...I dislike stereotypes...and saying someone is "Chinese" because they are Asian (I couldn't figure out how to say it, Oriental?) is a generalization, i.e. everyone that looks Asian is Chinese. The fact is that we use the simplest terms available to describe someone...for instance, if there is a crowd of men w/ 1 woman, we would just say, "The Woman" and would skip trying to say the person over there in the green shirt, with blue pants, etc...the simplest description gets the point across, saying "The black man" isn't racist or anything, it's just the easiest way to point out an individual. Calling someone Chinese gets the point across, but there are better desciptors. I also feel it's very sad that we've had to resort to finding correct ways of describing people, African-American (which I feel is inacurate as well, there ARE white people in africa too), Caucasian-American, Asian, European, etc. All these labels do is further divide and separate us. We are one, there's no such thing as different races of man, we are all the HUMAN race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Originally posted by Darth Homer I also feel it's very sad that we've had to resort to finding correct ways of describing people, African-American (which I feel is inacurate as well, there ARE white people in africa too), Caucasian-American, Asian, European, etc. All these labels do is further divide and separate us. We are one, there's no such thing as different races of man, we are all the HUMAN race. Can't agree with you there. That's like saying a house cat and a lion are exactly the same thing because they are both "cats." Well they aren't. They have fundamental differences and when that is overlooked wrong assumptions (which we all oh so hate) are made. Saying blacks and white and asians are completely the same is naive. We aren't, that's clear, but that doesn't mean its a bad thing, or that we can't live and commune together. The sooner we accept our differences, rather than try to ignore them, the sooner we can live together with a greater understanding. Its not the classification that is bad, its the refusal and misuse of them, IMO. Labels don't separate us, we do. No one or no words are driving us apart except ourselves. If we are separate, it is because we choose to be, plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Homer Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Originally posted by Tie Guy Saying blacks and white and asians are completely the same is naive. I never said that whites, blacks, and asians were completely the same...I said the categorization of someone into subsets based on appearance is what is divisive. I freely admit that there are differences, but the differences are negligible...the real differences come into play through each person's culture and values, THAT is what really makes us different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted February 26, 2003 Author Share Posted February 26, 2003 Can't agree with you there. That's like saying a house cat and a lion are exactly the same thing because they are both "cats." Well they aren't. They have fundamental differences and when that is overlooked wrong assumptions (which we all oh so hate) are made. Saying blacks and white and asians are completely the same is naive. Agreed. --If you want to debate this, reincarnate my 2-page long thread on wheter we're one race or not. It's here someplace . Here, though, it's been stated and answered, so let's consider it undecided and leave it like that. The fact is that we use the simplest terms available to describe someone...for instance, if there is a crowd of men w/ 1 woman, we would just say, "The Woman" and would skip trying to say the person over there in the green shirt, with blue pants, etc...the simplest description gets the point across, saying "The black man" isn't racist or anything, it's just the easiest way to point out an individual. Calling someone Chinese gets the point across, but there are better desciptors. Exactly. Why don't you say Asian, as you obviously don't mind recognizing races, instead of "Chinese", which generalizes? Heck Asian is a shorter word than Chinese, even. Saves you time! That is, if you KNOW the person is Chinese, sure, say Chinese. If you don't, don't guess. And no, it's not the same as saying "Texan" when someone say they're American, or "German" when a guy is really Swedish. It's a tad bit worse than that. why does it bother you that bad man, you have issues Would you mind clarifying that ...via PM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherack Nhar Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Originally posted by Darth Homer I'm from Texas, most people assume that because I'm from Texas, I like country music, drive a big truck, and lived on a ranch... Only because I know xwing guy, I swear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xwing guy Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Ahhh, you gonna hit on me like that when you think I'm not around? BTW, I agree with rhett and tie guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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